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Polish Anti-semitism - origins?


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Jan 2009 /  #61
Thanks for the clarification, lesser. I'm sure you have read much more about him than I have so I bow to your superior knowledge. I've read snippets of him from various sources but don't profess to know the specifics.

Didn't he swallow his pride and join with Piłsudski once? This, again, shows the unity of the Polish spirit. Better go with a Polish adversary than a foreign one, nice thinking.

Good point about not binding future generations btw.
sjam 2 | 541  
23 Jan 2009 /  #62
As must Poles during the Centuries being happy citizens of Prussia, Austria and Russia?

and the rest :-)
TrevorOfCrete 1 | 3  
23 Jan 2009 /  #63
I think the real anti-semitism not explored to what it deserved is that of Austria.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Jan 2009 /  #64
Classic deflection strategy employed but accurate nonetheless.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
23 Jan 2009 /  #65
As must Poles during the Centuries being happy citizens of Prussia, Austria and Russia?

Oddly enough no, there wasnt much intermarriage between Germans and Poles and the vast majority of rapes that happened happened on Germans so tovarish Bratwurst zdarava!
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
23 Jan 2009 /  #66
First of all, the events in Jedwabne have different version...Those of Professor Gross, and those of the testimony of Poles to Polish historians...To answer your questions simply, Poles and Jews in Poland were pushed to the breaking point by the Nazi armies and the Communists from the Soviet Union...Poles & Jews had a sometimes fragile co-existence, but this was shattered when the extremists with guns took over...It is simple...Also, Dmowski had some very sound idesas, although I have read that he didn't care for music or the arts, which is bad because the arts are an important expression of the higher human spirit.
David_18 68 | 982  
23 Jan 2009 /  #67
Go out in the mittle of Warsaw and scream out that you are a jew and you are proud of it. I can assure you that no one will givie a F**k about it.

And then try to do the same thing in Moscow. Don't forget to bring your insurance card with ya, the hospitals are very very expensive in Russia for foriginers mein freund !!
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
24 Jan 2009 /  #68
Joedmowski: What Gross searched and wrote about was mostly confirmed by investigation done after. Jedwabne events happened. There are critical, but mostly normal, debate about some details: role of the German participation (active or passive) and number of victims (first memorial stone on the place talked about 300 victims by the Nazis, modern numbers show 1600 murdered Jews). What I wrote about was mostly based on Jedwabne born and raised Polish historians interviews with the elderly of Jedwabne (as mentioned before). Though, I also have read the Gross' book on the subject, as some other presentations. I'm very found of history-politics-memory.

That fist memorial stone that talked about "300 killed by "Hitler's soldiers"" is typical national communist times distortion of the memory. You can find these memorial stones all around of Poland. No victim names or nationalities, and said to be done by "the Hitler's soldiers". Of course many of the victims had been Jewish Poles not Catholics but this wasn't the way it wanted to be remembered. Also, not only the victims nationality is hidden but the killers too. Naturally, many times they really were "The Hitler's soldiers" but then what the Polish national communist regime didn't want to remember was the killed by the NKVD, and sometimes, unfortunately, the cases like Jedwabne.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,311  
24 Jan 2009 /  #69
Oddly enough no, there wasnt much intermarriage between Germans and Poles and the vast majority of rapes that happened happened on Germans so tovarish Bratwurst zdarava!

Not much intermarriage between Poles and Germans during the centuries as Poles were subjugated to Germans and Russians but 3 month of rape excesses make the Germans russian?

But then you are believing also that Poles could have crushed Prussia any time if they had just wanted to...nothing beats a nice illusion, doesn' it!
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
24 Jan 2009 /  #70
Joedmowski: What Gross searched and wrote about was mostly confirmed by investigation done after.

Really ? Gross is a zoological Polonophobe, who made a career spreading hate and chuvanism. The "1600 victims" or "burnt in the barn" are total nonsense, there wasn't even that many Jews over there and If you look at typical Polish barn from that time you will realize that you can't fit in 1600 people even If they were standing at each others heads up to the roof. The only "eyewitness" Gross quote was proved to be deep in Russia when that happened and there are documents saying about deportation of large number of Jews from that area to the camps... a year after they all were killed and burnt by Polish beasts... Besides how the hell a similar number of Poles (like Grosz claims - half of town killed the other, Jewish half) could just like that easily kill similar number of Jews ? They really would have to be sub-humans... What happened in Jewdwabne was a revenge for collaboration in Soviet genocide for the previous 2 years, which maybe went a bit too far but one couldn't really expect anything else in that situation. And during official investigation only a few dozens of bodies were found (in a place where there should be 1600 according to Gross) and then there was a huge world wide oy vey that the investigation must be stopped because It's not kosher and so on...

during the centuries as Poles were subjugated to Germans and Russians

Which centuries ?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,311  
24 Jan 2009 /  #71
Which centuries ?

More than 3 months surely...:)

Really ? Gross is a zoological Polonophobe, who made a career spreading hate and chuvanism.

The Jews take it still seriously:

paulasays.com/articles/about_the_holocaust/about_poland/jedwabne.html
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Jan 2009 /  #72
And this is the problem. I find it disingenuous that Jews can attack Poles. Zegota, help from Poles (The Pianist) and the provision of opportunities to ply their commercial trades should have been enough.

Dmowski knew the proportionality and interplay of things. For example, he knew that a gain for the Jews was a loss for the Poles. He wasn't as anti-Semitic as many labelled him to be. He was just concerned that the Jews would progressively accrue more and more influence at the expense of his beloved Poles. That doesn't make him hostile, that makes him patriotic and smart.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
24 Jan 2009 /  #73
Jedwabne is all about death, betrayal and lies.

Actually I agree with that... And that pieace of hateful, crappy text perfectly show why "some" needed to exaggerate the whole thing 20 times and promote It without any historical context.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
24 Jan 2009 /  #74
This is why it is so important to read numerous sources and not merely accept an authority as given.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
25 Jan 2009 /  #75
The way I see it is that it seems to be no matter how or in what tone one talks about issue such as what happened in Jedwabne, the same primitive reaction occurs.

In my view healthy national self-esteem also allows open conversation about downsides and darker events.

Naturally I am unable to present you all my sources on this subject via this forum, but here is one, the Polish historians response and debate about the tidewave caused by "Neighbours". Please pay special attention to "My Jedwabne" by Marta Kurkowska, and you will get insiders view and professional view in one.

One debated issue between Polish historians is the amount of collaboration amongst Jewish community with the occupying Red Army in the east areas. I think that it varied. For sure it was larger than the collaboraton of Poles, as was the case with Belarussian and Ukrainian population there. One British historian (with Polish roots), Mark Mazower, writes about the relative suppression (relative as it wasn'

t comparable to events that took place in USSR in Germany in that time) of minorities rights in Poland after the death of Pilsudski. He concludes that this suppression was one noticable factor that then made the way of these minorities to join with the occupant in larger numbers. On the other hand, there surely was more Polish than Jewish collaboration with the Nazis, but this goes without saying. Eventhough Poland could not be seen as very collaborative nation, more the opposite.

Also, it does not hurt anyone actually reading the Gross' book before calling him Polonophobe etc. According to him the killers were partly consisted of locals and partly of Poles from near areas who came by with trucks. According to Gross these were groups of men who were doing this kind acts in the area in that sad time. Number of other historians claim direct German participation.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
25 Jan 2009 /  #76
The way I see it is that it seems to be no matter how or in what tone one talks about issue such as what happened in Jedwabne, the same primitive reaction occurs.

Excuse me ?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,311  
25 Jan 2009 /  #77
Number of other historians claim direct German participation.

Any links?
polishcanuck 7 | 462  
25 Jan 2009 /  #78
It's quite interesting how jews are quick to blame others of anti semetism while they think of themselves as innocent little angels who were always the victims.

What about the polish-bolshevik war of 1919-1921 when the polish jews helped the russians identify (for the purpose of elimination) the polish intelligensia in the parts of poland that fell into russian hands in the beginning of the war???????????????? And everyone wonders why the incidents @ jedwabne, łomża etc. ocurred...

Although i strongly condemn this "eye for an eye" violence, it is the answer to the first poster's question. These were savage times involving very primitive people, i'm afraid.

BTW, how many threads do we need on this topic?
Softsong 5 | 495  
25 Jan 2009 /  #79
It just shows that all peoples are capable of deeds of hatred. But, the problem is that we tend to only hear about what happened to the Jews. It was terrible, no attempt to minimize the tragedy, but there were other terrible things done for revenge to both Poles and Germans. Maybe some day we can really learn that one revenge leads to another and another.

I bring this up because interestingly, on a mail list that I subcribe to about Central Europe genealogy, someone recommended reading a book that is only in limited supply at the moment. Amazon has a few in stock.

The author is named John Sacks and he is Jewish. Even he had a hard time making the book known and if not for his being Jewish, it may never have seen the light of day.

Here is what one reviewer at Amazon said:

By Mariusz T. Wesolowski (North Vancouver, BC Canada) - See all my reviews

This review is from: An Eye for an Eye:

This fantastic piece of investigative journalism brought howls of impotent rage against its author, a Jewish writer, who dared to discuss the Jewish revenge on the German and Polish civilians right after the end of WW2.
One of these executioners, Shlomo Morel, still lives in peace in Israel despite the Polish government's efforts to have him extradited and tried for genocide. A must read for anybody who doesn't passively accept the whitewashed story of the 20th-century East European Jewry.
stormhorse 1 | 16  
25 Jan 2009 /  #80
I am from Ireland, and have like so mamy other Irish people welcomed and appreciated Polish people from the time of their arrival to our country...there are 300,000 Poles settled in Ireland.......SO WHY IS THEIR SIGNS UP IN POLAND THAT IRISH PEOLPLE ARE NOT WELCOME? : BUILDING FIRMS IN POLAND ARE ADVERTISING FOR CONSTRUCTION STAFF REQUIRED WITH A FOOTNOTE THAT SAYS: Irish need not apply?

Can somebody please tell me why? is it just a small minority who were maybe not treated as well as they feel they should have? If this is the case then why take it out on the whole of ther Irish people, rather thsat the person too whom you are sore at?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
25 Jan 2009 /  #81
What about the polish-bolshevik war of 1919-1921 when the polish jews helped the russians identify (for the purpose of elimination) the polish intelligensia in the parts of poland that fell into russian hands in the beginning of the war???????????????? And everyone wonders why the incidents @ jedwabne, łomża etc. ocurred...

Not much to do with 19-21, much more with 39-41.

Shlomo Morel, still lives in peace in Israel

Actually he died a year or two ago, without any punishment of course.

SO WHY IS THEIR SIGNS UP IN POLAND THAT IRISH PEOLPLE ARE NOT WELCOME? : BUILDING FIRMS IN POLAND ARE ADVERTISING FOR CONSTRUCTION STAFF REQUIRED WITH A FOOTNOTE THAT SAYS: Irish need not apply?

That was nonsense... one Polish company in the Northern Irealnd did that. First of all there are no Irish construction workers looking for a job in Poland.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
25 Jan 2009 /  #82
they rarely broke the rule of harbouring or helping the jews.

That went both ways.
It still baffles me why one ethnicity is expected to help the other if both are on the same list of nations destined for extermination. Not only that, it baffles me how come so few Jews helped other Jews.

As for the roots of anti-semitism in Poland, well, unlike in other European countries where either burnt Jews at stake, or kicked them out there were Jews in Poland.
JulietEcho 3 | 100  
25 Jan 2009 /  #83
- Who told you you're not welcome?! Come, settle, live and work!!!!!!!!!! Just beacause some hick idiot posted one add, doesnt mean everyone feels that way... Maybe what he meant is that an average Irish might not be satisfied with a pay scale?
superjay - | 47  
25 Jan 2009 /  #84
SO WHY IS THEIR SIGNS UP IN POLAND THAT IRISH PEOLPLE ARE NOT WELCOME? : BUILDING FIRMS IN POLAND ARE ADVERTISING FOR CONSTRUCTION STAFF REQUIRED WITH A FOOTNOTE THAT SAYS: Irish need not apply?

a trade union leader mentioned this in Ireland and suddenly people think it's the "norm" in Poland. The Polish embassy in Dublin have denied it.

If something like this happened it would be like Grzegorz said an isolated case - and probably a result of Polish subcontractors who got shafted and were unpaid thousands by unscrupulous Irish developers...there are quite a few such cases being dealt with by the courts in Ireland.

First of all there are no Irish construction workers looking for a job in Poland.

end of!
Crnogorac3 2 | 442  
25 Jan 2009 /  #85
a trade union leader mentioned this in Ireland and suddenly people think it's the "norm" in Poland.

Opinions of individuals are not opinions of their nations as whole.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
26 Jan 2009 /  #86
BB: If you want to go deeper in the case please read debated issues. I think that link to the book where Polish historians have dialogue gives good sight. One of the controversial issues there is the German involment (none, passive or active). Gross himself writes that there were Germans present but that they did not actually (or directly) participate on the killing, but just standed by taking photographs of the Poles torturing and murdering the Jews.

I can't say for 100% sure that there wasn't direct German partcipation, yet it seems to me that the view of German troops doing the act (to some unnamed people) comes from national communist official memory and from the local communitys self-regulated way of remembering what happened in those days: such as shown for example in the document by Gazeta Wyborcza reporter Anna Bikont, where the townspriest tells story about German troops killing the Jews. When interviewed individually however, some Jedwabniaks dare to remember otherwise. "I swear to God it was the Poles." weeps one old man remembering sight from his youth. But those who speak out meet with hostile denial from the community. (Anna Bikont: "My z Jedwabnego")

"I think of them as Poles, no matter if they believed in Moses, for me they are Poles." tells the former mayor of Jedwabne to Bikont. Kurkowska has later told that the mayor had to leave his post because the climate around him went too aggressive for him speaking out. Now the former mayor lives in Chigaco as construction worker.

Naturally, these unfortunate events would not ever have happened if Nazi Germany and Soviet Union had not invaded Poland.

To a slightly different issue. There seems to be quite alot of people who want to see the NKVD as (pro-)Jewish organization. Please keep in mind that 1/3 of all people arrested and deported from the east areas by the NKVD were Jewish. This is much more than their population in what was Eastern Poland at the time would assume.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,311  
26 Jan 2009 /  #87
BB: If you want to go deeper in the case please read debated issues.

I searched everywhere but COULD NOT FIND ONE historian or one little quote who claims that it was the Germans!

Even the polish Institute of Remembrance researched this case and came to the conclusion that it was NOT the Germans...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Institute_of_National_Remembrance

The Polish Institute of National Remembrance subsequently issued findings in support of Gross' claims.[1][2][3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

Naturally, these unfortunate events would not ever have happened if Nazi Germany and Soviet Union had not invaded Poland.

There were pogroms in eastern Europe before the Nazis came...you surely didn't need the Germans for that!

Even Kwasniewski knew better:

I am saying it after the completion of the investigation conducted by appropriate judicial authorities in Poland. Despite a long time that has past since that moment, few witnesses and little evidence, the findings unequivocally state that the people from Jedwabne were murdered by their Polish neighbors.

info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroom/J/PresK.html

....but who knows...maybe it's just one big anti-polish conspiration..
Prince 15 | 590  
26 Jan 2009 /  #88
"On what Poles and Jews don't like to remember"

polishpress.wordpress.com/2007/06/02/on-what-poles-and-jews-dont-like-to-remember/

Author: Adam Michnik (editor-in-chief of Gazeta Wyborcza daily, former leader of anti-communist opposition, human rights activist, Pole and Jew

(Lecture given in July 1995 in Krakow, on a conference entitled "Polish remembrance - Jewish remembrance", first published in Tygodnik Powszechny of 16th July 1995)

When we analyse the documents of Jews living in Poland - letters, diaries, and other documents - what we see in them is the love to the Polish ethos, to the Polish culture, to the Polish system of values. And that love was rejected. If I may, I will risk a thesis: the tension, the drama, the hurting on the Jewish side is the result of unrequited love mechanism. No one hates a man, like rejected wife or lover. And I think that is why there is the taboo in the Polish side.

I have been reflecting many times, why in the world there is no such stereotype, that Russians are anti-Semites. There is no such stereotype. Or why today in Israel it is said that Holocaust was done by Nazis not by the Germans? It's not that Poles didn't have their fascists. We did. Every nation has them. And the fact that Hitler didn't find here any Quisling or Laval I don't see as some Polish merit. He probably would have found if he looked for. But it is a different matter. People are talking around the world about the Poles as anti-Semites, although they didn't have their Laval or Brasillach, and they aren't talking like that about the French, who had. Why? Because there had to be some way to justify Yalta.

Poles are a specific nation, which just dreams to persecute Jews. And when I hear such a thing, I am very afraid of it, for hundred of reasons. But three are the most important. First: because it's a lie. Second: because it's not good to stick to lies.

on the Jewish side there is something what you could call "triumphalism of pain": which means that only we, the Jews, have the right to pain, only we have the right to be the object of compassion as sufferers. While this is a perspective, which Poles will never accept. Poles have had their Auschwitz. Poles have had their executions

Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,311  
26 Jan 2009 /  #89
Why? Because there had to be some way to justify Yalta.

There might be some truth to that....
Prince 15 | 590  
26 Jan 2009 /  #90
ZEGOTA-Council for Aid to Jews in Occupied Poland(1939-1945). ZEGOTA (in Polish: ŻEGOTA) was the only government-sponsored (London-based Polish Government-in-Exile) social welfare agency established to rescue Jews in German-occupied EUROPE. It provided hiding places and false identify documents for Jewish men, women, and children who were able to escape from German-Nazi control and ultimately their efforts saved thousands of lives.

Few people know that among all the countries occupied by the German Third Reich during the Second World War(1939-1945) only in GERMAN-OCCUPIED POLAND was any kind of help to a person of Jewish faith or origin punishable by death. This penalty was widely announced by the occupying authorities. What is more, this punishment was quite often imposed not only on the rescuer, but also on his/her family, often on neighbors, and on whole towns or villages. The Germans believed in collective responsibility, trying to eliminate as many Poles, and Slavic people, as possible, making them the most terrorized populations after the Jews

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_among_the_Nations

In secular usage, the term is used by the State of Israel to describe non-Jews who risked their lives during the Holocaust in order to save Jews from extermination by the Nazis. The secular award (discussed below) by the same name given by the State of Israel has often been translated into English as Righteous Gentile.

See List of Righteous among the Nations by country for names of individuals ...

Poland is on the first place.

From the other hand Jedwabne heppened.

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