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Polish Anti-semitism - origins?


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
20 Jan 2009 /  #31
And its origins ;)
Crow 150 | 9,544  
20 Jan 2009 /  #32
Polish Anti-semitism - origins

its found this thread quite provocative

its nothing wrong if Poles are normal people who want to survive as Slavs. Its not anti-Semitism to refuse to believe in Oba Ma
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
20 Jan 2009 /  #33
But this is a thread about Polish Anti-semitism...

No this is a thread made by one of many twats who try to make a country which sacrificed so much to save Jews antisemitic.

Anti-semitism in Poland was rare, Jews should come to us on their fucking knees wearing sings "i'm an ungrateful dipshit who spits on my saviors" and beg us for forgivness for the slander towards people who died to save them instead they pick a rare case of anti-semitism.

No Poland was not anti-semit. Every Jew and everyone else who says so should be dragged by his face to Poland to beg forgivness from still living Poles who saved Jews.

Yes TODAY we are anti-semitic because many jewish circles by and large are vile people who peddle Holocaust and accusations and given that WE as a nation saved so many its particulary insulting and unfair.

Personally i'm not an anti-semit since it requires a certain low level IQ to judge people by ethnicity or nationality but i despise all Jews who try to peddle holocaust and guilt and what they did to Poland with their books and accounts is scandalous and unexplainable.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
20 Jan 2009 /  #34
And its origins ;)

True.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
20 Jan 2009 /  #35
Thanks, Greg. That one-liner is timeless and priceless :)
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
20 Jan 2009 /  #36
The answer to the question whether Poles are anti-semites or not largely depends on ones sympathy, or the lack of, towards polish people. Generally we could just swap stories, charts and statistics and still we wouldn’t find a perfect answer. During the WWII about 50 000 poles lost their lives as a result of trying to help Jews save their lives. We will never get to know the total number of Poles who risked their lives and the lives of their close ones to save people who often were complete strangers to them. And yet Poland also is a country were “Jedwabne” and pogrom kilecki took place. To make it even more complicated, there were many polish anti-semites who helped jews during WWII, just because they were decent human beings. Now go figure.

Maybe one day a wise man will appear with a formula that will put an end to this endless stifle and say yes or no? Who knows.

As for reasons for polish anti-semitism, there could have, and in fact were, many. For example, many brits on this forum have a big problem with polish immigrants that after 4 years don’t mix with the locals and tend not to bother to learn their hosts language. Now imagine an immigrant group that didn’t bother to learn the language and mix in despite being in England for 400 years. Surely some Lloyd or Archibald would get his knickers in a twist over it, innit? There were of course more but I actually got tired of this topic. Never in my life have I read more about the jews as on this site. Besides I prefer to listen about the good sides of polish-jewish relationship, which were many, rather than constantly read about the down-sides.
osiol 55 | 3,922  
20 Jan 2009 /  #37
I can't remember what the thing is called, but there is a list of those who were noted for helping Jews in WWII by country of origin. Poland tops the list of those who put their lives at risk, even sacrificing their own lives for a greater cause that included helping Jews who suffered with the Poles amongst others in that terrible time in recent history.

To those who claim that the holocaust is a fraud (these people come from many different countries) and that it is a Jewish/Zionist conspiriacy, I ask: why would they on the one hand claim that the Poles were evil Jew-killers, yet on the other hand hold them up as an example of people who gave so much for the Jews?

We're on page 2 now. There has been no mention of 1968, something I know little about. Poland, under the USSR-dominated communist government was still home to quite a few Jews, some who worked with and within the government, others who didn't. Then at the end of the 1960s, most (am I right?) of Poland's Jews left the country. Can anyone explain what happened there? I'm sure some remained (I am aware of two or three people with Jewish roots from today's Poland, so I realise one claim that all of Poland's Jews left then).

Or will this thread continue to scrape through the sediment of the "anti-Semitic" pond?
McCoy 27 | 1,269  
20 Jan 2009 /  #38
I can't remember what the thing is called

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_among_the_Nations

I am aware of two or three people with Jewish roots from today's Poland

many more of them
osiol 55 | 3,922  
20 Jan 2009 /  #39
many more of them

Doesn't suprise me. I mean, I don't know all that many Poles, and there may well be *adopts hushed tones* people who unknowingly or unadmittedly have Jewish ancestors. A bit like how common German(ic) surnames seemed to be amongst the Czechs I worked with last summer.
McCoy 27 | 1,269  
20 Jan 2009 /  #40
A bit like how common German(ic) surnames seemed to be amongst the Czechs I worked with last summer.

every 5th czech.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
21 Jan 2009 /  #41
Stop this Jews, Jews, Jews for awhile...Jews suffered in WWII like everyone else...The poorer ones anyway...Wars are run by gangster cabals...Run by psychos...You let psychos loose with guns, money, power, propaganda, you get a witch's brew...It's like letting a heroin addict or pedophile live in your house and thinking that he won't steal your property or molest your child...Jews were no special victims, but they learned to effectively use their 'suffering' to make money...I qouted Bernard Lazare earlier in the thread about reasons why Jews were alienated from their host countries in Europe...Read his words...It was the same in Poland, except Poland was extremely tolerant...No more pogrom, pogrom, pogrom...Everybody gets 'pogrommed' at sometime or other...It's just that are different style pogroms.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
21 Jan 2009 /  #42
"All suffered the same." No matter Polish Jew or Swede? (And yes, there clearly can be shown differences in number of deaths by ethnicity inside Poland too.) This is as unwitted as saying that "All born in this world are born with equal possibilities." No matter born in Kenya or born in Finland? And for what I see it is precisely this guy "joepilsudski" talking and nagging about the Jews all the time. Little bit of an obsession there? Maybe he should change his name for something more suitable like "joedmowski".
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
21 Jan 2009 /  #43
You must be a Forum moderator in disguise...A new name I have never seen before...I just respond to other posts...And yes, suffering is suffering, only a matter of degree...You are a Pole, right?...You might suffer from a low mentality, but does that entitle you to special treatment?
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
21 Jan 2009 /  #44
HB, how's your Polish? Yes, you are more Polish than I am.

This isn't a contest, Seanus, but FYI, I was the only person (that I know of) in a high school with over 1500 students with a hard to pronounce polish last name and whenever someone saw it they asked "Is that a polish last name???" over and over. That was after I told them how to pronounce it, which I would have to tell them over and over because they just did not get it and would pronounce it wrong then ask me how. So, you can sit there and tell yourself and me that I am not polish but I know for a fact I am and have been told my whole life that I am. TYVM.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
22 Jan 2009 /  #45
Joedmowski: It seems that you see what you want to see.

Topic of this thread could be one very intresting area of conversation, for example as a part of Poland's pre-1939 past when 1/3 of her citizens consisted of non-Polish Catholic people; Jews, Ukrainians, Germans, Tatars, Belarusians etc. . People lived together, people lived apart, but for me it seems that for the majority people lived in "normal" relations between other groups of people.

And what I would be intrested to read about under this specific thread would be the thinking of what elements we're specific in Polish Catholic-Jewish relations, as it's clear that these groups have had long close history together within the body of Polska.

Also, the conflicts between these groups, what we're the reasons? I think reading about Pan Pilsudski and mister Dmowski open some basic Polish views on this issue among others in the larger picture of the idea and heritage of The Old Republic.

And finally, as the most dark example of conflict, how was Jedwabne possible? Before the war Poles and Jews of this area lived in mutual co-existance and we're bound to each other (at least) by economy (for example one futureday Polish historian from Jedwabne writes that the town Polish and Jewish butcher had shops next to each other and shared the same ice-room for the meat). And that these people lived this way together even most of the area's (Bialystok area) Poles we're voters of Dmowskite nationalist party, and on the other hand the Jews had various political views among their community.

So, just few of my points about this intresting social history of free Poland. Please feel free to add your own thaughts. Personally I'm very interested in individual stories of pre-war Poland as echoes from this lost entity.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
22 Jan 2009 /  #46
And finally, as the most dark example of conflict, how was Jedwabne possible?

Jews murdered the polish elites.

And finally, as the most dark example of conflict, how was Jedwabne possible? Before the war Poles and Jews of this area lived in mutual co-existance

And then Jews became the prime executors of Stalins plan to murder every single member of inteligentsia in Poland, after that Poles were anything but gratefull and thats how Jedwabne happened.

After so much murder done by Jews it wasnt hard to believe the gossip that they killed again, even if they were civilians.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
22 Jan 2009 /  #47
Jews murdered the polish elites.

Nazis murdered the polish elite. It's in the history books.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
22 Jan 2009 /  #48
You do know that Poland was divided between the USSR and the Nazi Germany ? Read up on what happened in the Soviet half and who did the killings, not the Russians thats for sure.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
22 Jan 2009 /  #49
And how I tried...

Ok, Sokrates. Things aren't so just by you saying they are so. Provide a link to back up your story.

Actually I was more interested of talking about the common history of Poles, Jews and other peoples. But of course we can do this normal thing and conclude that it was the Jews fault that they have to killed in Jedwabne. And so on...

So, origins of Polish anti-Semitism = Jews?

Edit:

Actually, I find interesting aspect from the Polish side towards their Jewish countrymen that was expressed during WW II. In the same time the Poles saved the most Jews by number than in any other European country, and also on the other hand one can clearly show this sentiment that we are talking about here.

But I can say for sure that the origins of Polish anti-Semitism we're not in the WW II. Read about Roman Dmowski for instance.

And in the accused Jews of NKVD murdering Poles. Yagoda was Jew from what I remember, then again founder of NKVD's precessor Cheka was Feliks Dzierżyński, member of Polish nobility. So in what conclusion do we end up here?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
22 Jan 2009 /  #50
Ok, Sokrates. Things aren't so just by you saying they are so. Provide a link to back up your story.

I will give you the single best example of jewish attitude towards Poland and jewish crimes against Poles.

judicial-inc.biz/morel_a_jewish_monster.htm

"No basis whatsoever." Things are not the way they are because i say so but i say the way they are because they are this way.

So, origins of Polish anti-Semitism = Jews?

No because there is no "polish anti-semitism" Jews are disliked for what they've done to us and their post war attitude where they hide their shame behind a few crimes we did commit and vague statements of polish anti-semits but the mythical polish anti-semitism simply does not exist.

Actually, I find interesting aspect from the Polish side towards their Jewish countrymen that was expressed during WW II. In the same time the Poles saved the most Jews by number than in any other European country, and also on the other hand one can clearly show this sentiment that we are talking about here.

No one cannot clearly show any sentiment, the entire point is that majority of the Poles were sympathetic and many were active in their efforts to save as many Jews as possible whereas the Jews attempt to show it was the other way around partially to hide the fact that the NKVD is Poland was largely jewish.

NKVD's precessor Cheka was Feliks Dzierżyński, member of Polish nobility.

And of jewish roots, speaking yiddish fluently and being influenced by jewish circles in Lithuania, check out his biography.

So in what conclusion do we end up here?

Jews are responsible for genocide of polish people and to hide this fact they equalled their saviors to their Nazi opressors if only out of shame.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
22 Jan 2009 /  #51
Yes, you might go as an good example of something alright. Say "Jew" and you get wonders...

No one here, exept you perhaps, is equalling Polish people to Nazis. In some perverted way you seem to want to be.

Next, I guess you want to list by name every Pole who collaborated with the Nazis?

And of jewish roots, speaking yiddish fluently and being influenced by jewish circles in Lithuania, check out his biography.

I found no good proof of this, but naturally it could be since quite a number of Poles those days had some Jewish roots. But I must say that I ran into most imaginable sites where basicly every other Polish politician and cultural person is beign accused of beign Jewish; including the Kaczynskis, Kwasniewski, Lech Walesa and Andrzej Wajda. Boy, I must too be Jewish!

No because there is no "polish anti-semitism" Jews are disliked for what they've done to us

So, there is Jewish anti-Polonism but no such thing as Polish anti-Semitism exist?

Also, to mirror your logic, Poles are disliked by what Poles have done to other peoples but no such thing as anti-Polonism exist?

And good job with reading and understanding the Dmowski-part. Or it just doesn't fit into your message?
Easy_Terran 3 | 312  
22 Jan 2009 /  #52
No one here, exept you perhaps, is equalling Polish people to Nazis

Were you born yesterday? The net is crawling with such accusations.

As for Jedwabne: don't forget that shells from German machine gun were found and the investigation immediately came to a halt, after Jewish lobby strongly protested. Suddenly the investigation became not kosher. Isn't that weird?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
22 Jan 2009 /  #53
Every biographic information strop including Wiki says so about Felix so please dont say you havent found any information.

So, there is Jewish anti-Polonism but no such thing as Polish anti-Semitism exist?

That is correct, there is a wide spread anti-polish sentiment that justifies this as calling jewish but there is no widespread polish anti-semitism, there are of course genuine polish anti-semits but they're few and far between.

No one here, exept you perhaps, is equalling Polish people to Nazis.

Here as in on this forum ? No but in media and books as well as in testimonies Jews constantly do.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
22 Jan 2009 /  #54
But I can say for sure that the origins of Polish anti-Semitism we're not in the WW II. Read about Roman Dmowski for instance.

Picture of Dmowski is always distracted by his political opponents. Read Dmowski himself instead something about him.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
22 Jan 2009 /  #55
Dmowski was more of a purist. Piłsudski, his nemesis, advocated a more multicultural Poland. In this respect, I prefer Piłsudski.

However, Dmowski knew that Zionism was just a charade, masquerading as sth other than what it stood for. It disguised its true agenda which was global domination. On this point, senior Rabbis agreed with him.

Backing up Sokrates's contention of collaboration, Dmowski wrote that the Jews sided with the Germans to plot against the Poles. Our idiotic PM at that time, Lloyd George, merely fuelled Dmowski's ambitious plans. Dmowski fought for a modern Catholic Poland, free of subversive and meddling Jewry. He strove to recreate the Piast dynasty with relative homogeneity.

I think it was Dmowski who once started a speech with the point that the Jews killed Jesus Christ. Pretty inflamatory but open to debate. Interesting man.
DtLebowski 1 | 26  
22 Jan 2009 /  #56
Bez sensu. Primitive reactions cause brainlocks: Jedwabne and Jews mentioned - Polish national pride under attack, call in the cavalry!

Sokrates: I admire your talent to complitely ignore all that doesn't fit into your picture. After this post our dance is over, you can think that you won this if it makes you feel better. For some reason I will continue to believe this Jedwabne-born Polish historian and her few hundred hours of tape-recorded interviews with the elderly of presentday Jedwabne, alongside with my own judgement.

DtLebowski:
So, there is Jewish anti-Polonism but no such thing as Polish anti-Semitism exist?

That is correct

You fail.

So, after all you can come down to say "Jews" and "some few Poles" are against each other. We can agree on one thing about that. Some few Poles really are bigots ;)

What comes to my own experience the one word to describe Polish people would be Cordial. I am interested of Polish minority subjects partly because I study history and have fallen for tragic and romantic Polish history, that is also multinational, and partly because I'm foreigner who lives in Poland, although in a way I feel Polish; I live in Poland, I have lived with Poles, I hang out with Poles, I speak almost decent Polish (well, many times not so decent); in other words, I live inside the culture as much as I can. And I can believe that also members from these past-time minority nationals could have felt much like I do.

Also, I find Jewish people as admirable people. And guess what! My love for Poland and respecting the Jews just as much as the Poles do not exclude each other.
sjam 2 | 541  
23 Jan 2009 /  #57
Doesn't suprise me. I mean, I don't know all that many Poles, and there may well be *adopts hushed tones* people who unknowingly or unadmittedly have Jewish ancestors. A bit like how common German(ic) surnames seemed to be amongst the Czechs I worked with last summer.

....A bit like how many millions of Germans born since WWII must now have Russian DNA courtesy the Red Army.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,175  
23 Jan 2009 /  #58
As must Poles during the Centuries being happy citizens of Prussia, Austria and Russia?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Jan 2009 /  #59
I was just asking, HB, chill out. Everyone asks me how my Polish is, why can't I do likewise? Sorry, you came across was defensive. I didn't say you were or weren't Polish. I thought you had Polish connections but just wasn't sure.

Anyway, this is straying off topic. Dmowski, yes, he had a vision of how he wanted Poland to be. He didn't value multiculturalism, opting instead for a refined vision of Polishness, religion and all. I think it would be fair to say that modern day Poles, those without a chip on their shoulder, don't think about Jews or Jewishness that much.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
23 Jan 2009 /  #60
However, Dmowski knew that Zionism was just a charade, masquerading as sth other than what it stood for. It disguised its true agenda which was global domination. On this point, senior Rabbis agreed with him.

Dmowski was aware of scale of Jewish influences, however he warned many when they used to overestimate this factor.

Backing up Sokrates's contention of collaboration, Dmowski wrote that the Jews sided with the Germans to plot against the Poles.

Rather about Jews whom mostly preferred German state over possible Polish statehood. So, his considered the Jews to be pro-Germanic, anti-Polish and anti-Russian force.

Our idiotic PM at that time, Lloyd George, merely fuelled Dmowski's ambitious plans.

He had some influential Jewish advisor Lewis Namier originally from Polish Galicia. This guy was not very enthusiastic about Polish independence.

He strove to recreate the Piast dynasty with relative homogeneity.

He was not a monarchist, declared support for democracy. National movements at that time were generally opposed to monarchy.

I think it was Dmowski who once started a speech with the point that the Jews killed Jesus Christ. Pretty inflamatory but open to debate. Interesting man.

That is of course a bit demagoguery claim for political purpose. This is impossible to united people (voters) making reasonable claims, thus politicians of course must be populist to be elected.

Well, Christ was killed by Romans because some Judaist Jews demanded it to happen. Some other Jews at that time were his students and become the first Christians. Obviously future generation of Jews hold no responsibility for this crime.

You can read in Bible St Peter forming such accusation, while he was a Jew himself. Some people love to comment about such quotes out of context.

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