Real Estate / Poland house prices recovered faster - Summary of 2010 [89]

I'm confused - the price would fall but your yield is unchanged - in fact your yield relates to what you actually paid for the place.

And where would you get the cash to pay for these other flats ? You would still need some deposits. Maybe OK for you but have you any idea how hard it is for a Warsaw citizen with a monthly avg wage of 4000 to scrape up a 50.000 deposit ?

PLus your yield figures exclude repairs, management and tax (which I presume you are not declaring but you should !). Take those out and it is more like 5%. Better than the bank but a lot worse than the stock market.

Work / Chartered accountant from India joining a company in Poland. Cost of living in Poznan? [29]

rent - about 3000-4000 for a large house in suburbs.
car - 400 per month petrol 200 parking
health insurance - get your company to pay but a few hundred per month
overall you would need to be getting PLN 10k net if you want to save money but you could probably live a modest life on PLN 8k net.

Average pay of qualifieds here is about PLN 15-20k gross per month.

Travel / The S7 Poland a toll way - Krakow to Warsaw [8]

1 That shows motorways not local roads
2 Call me cynical but I'm not convinced that in one year they will build the same amount of motorways as they managed in the last 10. If you ever worked with Poles you will know deadlines are not a strongpoint.

Anyway, this thread is about property prices which are falling.

Real Estate / Poland's apartment prices continue to fall [1844]

And how long is it going to take to fix the roads. They are pitiful and it will take decades.

I reckon another 10-15% fall in next 24 months - prices compared to earnings are still way to high and incomes of average Poles are badly squeezed at the moment by petrol and clothing price increases. It much better financially to rent at the moment.

Law / Official translator at tax office in Poland. May I refuse? [4]

Remarkably enough I looked for a phone number and there is not one on the stamp or the letterhead.

But they have now said they will pay for the translator and try and switch it back to Poznan. The only reason I had to go elsewhere was that the Poznan office was too busy to handle it and it was for a very old case - told them this was hardly fair, so a minor victory over the bureaucrats :)

Work / Need for Public Accountants in Polska? Poland [11]

There are at least 5 different routes to optimize your tax if you are an expat but you will need a decent accounting firm to sort them out and they involve admin costs that mean you have to be on a good wage to make them pay off. Of course the Big 4 plus second tier firms are able to sort these out for their employees and clients and defend them in court if its questioned.

Work / Need for Public Accountants in Polska? Poland [11]

Its more to do with the benefits rather than the salary itself - on an Expat deal you would generally pay lower tax, get some flights home and good standard accomodation paid for plus (in my day) you would get some assistant for all your day to day stuff like posting letters, standing in queues, shopping etc. In return you are expected to work extremely hard - probably 15-20% more hours than you are used to in your home country.

I'm still in Poland but no longer in industry rather than in practice - there are not that many Expat accountants remaining in practice but I would guess that each big 4 firm has 20-30.

Work / Need for Public Accountants in Polska? Poland [11]

Yes there is still a need. Numbers of qualifieds have gone up but people with real commercial skill are still thin on the ground.

You dont need lots of work to understand the Polish accounting laws - they are almost identical to IFRS. Tax is a bit complicated but in any case there are plenty of local specialists for that.

You would not get an expat deal with a big 4 firm but they would probably be receptive to putting you on a local deal (pay of circa PLN 12-14k per month) if you spoke Polish.

If you didnt speak Polish then its much more difficult but you would find something after a while.

News / Poland goes bankrupt? [110]


Rubbish - there has been next to no improvement that promotes business or makes things quicker. The application for a NIP is a one off extremely minor change. What happened to "One Window" or to Przyjasne Panstwo ? All the things I can think of in the past year have actually gone the other way.

If you can name 5 things that have saved me more than 10 hours or more than 1000 zlots that have been introduced by PO then I will send a bottle of Spiritus your way !

The other govts I mentioned faced far larger problems with a much more divided population - most of those guys have now disappeared from politics as a result but the country owes them a huge debt. PO's lasting achievement so far is create a huge debt !

News / Poland goes bankrupt? [110]

Surely winning the election should not the the purpose of their existence - the politicians are paid to manage the country and its finances. If they are only interested in their own jobs then it is similar to the UK I left in 1995 when the Tories were in their dying days.

There are plenty of govts that have been far more proactive in Poland than the current guys - - just in my time here I would say that Cimosiewicz, Buzek, Marcinkiewicz and (arguably) Belka all achieved far more reforms than Tusk who seems mainly interested in keeping TVN happy.

And yes some decisions will be unpopular but that is the problem with leadership - you cant always be everyones mate. I have no problem with the teachers pay. I also dont care about ballet dancers because there can only be about 50 of them and the only one I know was crippled when she was about 21.

What they could have done in the past 3 years "pain free"

- sell some of Orlen
- sell some of PKO
- sell some of their other bank stakes
- sell some of their KGHM stake
- started the pension reform earlier
- pull out of Afghanistan and just lent some token help
- start some work on the railways
- start some work on the roads when the EU funds were there
- cut bureaucracy for companies to stimulate employment
- done something with the miners

News / Poland goes bankrupt? [110]

Once the election is out of the way then the PO will find some other way to put off the required restructuring - some other election or waiting till after 2012 to avoid strikes during the matches or some other excuse. They seem paralyzed as to what they really need to do.

The deficit is not however something they inherited from the previous clowns - it has grown 3 times worse during their time in power ! Rostwoski is smart enough to know that things are going to go tits up if he continues like this but I'm not sure many of the rest of them understand economics - Grad, Tusk etc.

Meantime they have done nothing to really show their "pro business" credentials so I think they might struggle a bit at the next elections, still biggest overall but with an unconvincing mandate.

Despite all the doom and gloom the subscription rate for Polish bonds is still pretty high.

Language / According to scientists when learning language it is necessary to look in face [14]

Its obviously easier face to face as you can see visual clues in their expression which help fill in gaps in your vocab.

I learned Polish from a book for about a month before I got here but it did no good - I only really picked it up when I arrived.

Real Estate / Poland Notary Agreement after a purchase of a property - very expensive! [14]

Notaries are the biggest racket going - I was charged PLN 2000 for half an hours work on Monday. Thats more expensive than the most expensive lawyers in New York.

It is unfortunately common for them to be unclear on fees and costs until you get there.

Life / Expats, do you use Polish language for most of time when you are in Poland? [12]

Home 80% English, switch to Polish if the inlaws are around. Work 50:50 but the English portion increasing as I try and insist my staff get their English up to scratch. Social life - 75% English, other 25% in Polish with wife's friends

Travel / PKP (Polish National Railway) is a turn off [47]


No - we simply want the service to be as good as it was say 10 years ago. That would be a start point. But it is now

- less reliable
- generally slower
- dirtier
- older
- majority of stations uglier.

In that time the price of the ticket I normally buy (first class Poznan to Warsaw) has gone up from 60 PLN to circa 130. Far higher than compound inflation.

I do not expect Swiss or German standards with a 32% income tax rate. But expecting things to be as good as Poland 2001 is not unreasonable.

The current govt is at fault - they had well prepared data for them on who to fire, how to restructure and how to finance that but did not move on it before the bank funding dried up and with the deficit racing head under their worrying stewardship they will now find it difficult to fix.

Life / How many English native speakers in Poland? [28]

I would say the people here with multinationals are actually much more welcome - they provide jobs, expertise, informal language training and spend lots in the bars and restaurants they frequent.

The people who have moved over since 2004 to be with the wives they met working as chambermaids and farmhands in the UK are quite different - mostly unqualified with little prospects apart from teaching TEFL, generally poor at Polish language, no spare cash and very naive about Poland.

Travel / A business trip from Warsaw to Bialystok - transportation? [26]

They should get some taxi company to drive them there in a minibus - would probably cost about 300 or 400 zloty. Normally train travel from Warsaw is simple but at the moment Centralna is a nightmare even if you speak Polish - no announcements, hardly any screens, long lines at ticket windows.

Plus Bialystok train station is miles from the centre so they would need to negotiate with cab drivers there too.

Life / What's up with the trains in Poland (the whole system in complete chaos?) [25]

Why does it need PIS agreement ? PO are the govt and have the presidency. For 3 years they told us once they have the presidency they will sort everything out.

In any case the problems on the railways accelerated after PIS have left power - PO have achieved next to nothing in terms of modernization of the lines and though they may have been full of "moustaches" PiS did have some people who had actually worked on railways before. And it is a question of money - the investment needed is huge. The new timetables saw many lines add 10-20 minutes because of new speed restrictions.

PO will no longer have the money to do it even if it got PIS agreement - the deficit is too large and the timescales too long and EU funds likely to be frozen. The only way out is price increases or cutting services.

I don't think it should be run for a profit - in my view a decent train service adds a lot to growth and it should get similar investment levels to roads.

Real Estate / Flat/apartment Rental Sites in Poland [12]

Have they been wrong - I remember lots of people saying that 2008 price falls would soon be reversed - they have not and there will probably be further falls in the next two years. Still a bubble. We don't hear much from the Irish guys that used to buy rental apartments here - they've now got the fallout from two bubbles to deal with !

Life / What's up with the trains in Poland (the whole system in complete chaos?) [25]

They have deteriorated steadily over the last 3-4 years while the cost has gone up steeply. When I arrived in the in 1997 I think Poznan-Warsaw was 35 PLN - now its about 110 PLN on InterCity, far higher than inflation and the time of the journey has gone up 15 mins. They have never been more comfortable than British trains but they were generally punctual.

This winter has been particularly bad - 9 of my last 10 trains have been late.

Its going to get worse rather than better - the govt does not have the money to fix it and the prices can not go much far higher without a demand drop off or a switch to buses. Shame because I'm a big fan of train travel.

Life / Made in Poland clothes (Warsaw) [12]

Reserved is all made in China or India.

When I arrived in Poland in 97 there was quite a large clothing industry in central Poland but it was already in failing health and has now died a death - Chinese wages were obviously lower (though not that much lower) and they had larger scale and more modern production.

Upon EU entry there were tarriffs on Chinese goods for a 3 year period which was supposed to allow modernization of the Polish factories - when the tariffs came down no modernization had happened and lots just went bankrupt.

There are a few that cling on - Wolczanka, Bytom but its mostly formal business wear.

Maybe not the end of the story though - wages in Shenzen, Canton etc are now about 60% of Polish minimum wages and it could be that in 5-10 years time Eastern Europe looks like a cheap place to produce.

Law / Lawyer in Poland did a bad job possibility of compensation? [17]

Zero chance of compensation unless there is an engagement letter with the lawyer. In any case even if there is then normally it would cost weeks and PLN to lodge a claim.

Being honest these PoA issues have arisen in every time I have done some property transaction - I always seem to be waiting for some document to arrive only minutes before the notary is due. Next time your friends will know (if there is a next time) otherwise its just tough and rather chalk it up to experience.

Law / DELL shifting ops from Ire to PL [30]

yes Slovenia and Estonia would have been a thrilling export market of about 150 people.

The accession process is a two way street - German's can not compete with Polish wages but on the other hand Poland is a key export market for the Germans (and French and British etc) and EU firms they have also acquired plenty of good assets here relatively cheap.

Law / Ease of doing business in Poland [32]

I dont think they are any better of worse than others on the market and was referred to them my many different people. You need to do lots of work after the share sale to make it operative. Lots of which involves notaries and meetings.

Whats the problem with notarization ? It means that you have to be there in person. Thus it negates the purpose of having a PoA !

Law / Ease of doing business in Poland [32]

Nonsense. I've bought a shelf company before here and "nearly immediately" was 3 weeks.

Yes, you can give a PoA to start a company but I'm pretty sure it has to be a notarized PoA !

Law / Ease of doing business in Poland [32]

Working through all the company formation and Pesel and NIP stuff is not that difficult but it has two huge drawbacks

- you have to do it often in person and have it notarized, you can't just send your secretary there.
-you have to do everything in order, which wastes time. i.e. its difficult to get started on building permits without a company, its difficult to start a company without a registered office, its difficult to rent an office without a PESEL.

As I said not that difficult but most countries get by without this nonsense. It seems geared to keeping older people in employment (and yes I realize without employment there is nobody with cash to buy your products !)

Law / Polish business haven't got a clue: Discuss. [72]

I think in terms of genuinely successful Polish companies that have operations abroad I can only think of KGHM. Orlen's forays outside Poland have been disastrous. In any case those are state monopolies. In terms of private business maybe Asseco and LPP but they are shaky in lots of ways.

Real Estate / Poland Housing prices in July 2010 [129]

What would drive a 5-8% increase in prices per annum ? Houses are already grossly overvalued compared to wages and to rent levels.

Much more likely over a few years is a 30% dip in towns outside Warsaw. I just finished a deal for one piece of real estate for almost 25% less than the asking price (and about 15% less than for what it went for in 2008)

And Polish banks did deal in derivatives - Millennium, Raiffeisen and BRE all have high exposure to currency derivatives which they flogged to Polish businesses who didnt understand them.