POLES SUPERIOR TO BRITS?

*Yaaaaawn...*


Germany was already openly breaking the treaty of Versailles in 1935.

You declared the war on them in 1939 because you hoped that together
with the French you could get a quick victory (and you would get a quick
victory if you moved your butts in September '39).


AGAIN, you impudently expect gratitude for betraying us! Unbe-fcuking-lievable :-)


Erm... I didn't start this thread. I only replied to the ridiculous claim of one ShelleyS,
who said that British "saved our asses" in WW2 :-)

Hey, she didn't betray you, because you both weren't even born yet!

;)


Talking about all of you in general?

;)

Again you show your ungrateful manner, even now, 1000s of Poles flock to England and all they do is complain about the smallest of things...Pathetic!


Mediation was going on, why declare war when things could be sorted out with out blood being spilt?


Are you a war tactician? Were you there? Arrh I get it! Another know it all Pole!

LOL

Good point, Arien. But you see, we are not ShelleyS and Torq anymore in this thread.
We are the Spirit of Britain and the Spirit of Poland arguing from the depths of history.

;)


Oh, you did a whole lot of mediation - I bet. :-))))))

No,they hoped Hitler was bluffing and he would not attack.


Very doubtful although Guderian supports the Germans would suffer great teritorial losses if the allies attacked in '39 BUT Hitler had stripped the western front of the valuable units because he knew that the allies would not attack(how?).


After all Poland had an offer from Soviet Union just before the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact which polish government declined.

Not true.
Germany broke the treaty years before attacking Poland. Britain did nothing. After all, the British politicians were so stupid that some considered Hitler charming and harmless.


Were you aware though that the Polish soldiers who fought for Britain (speaking about being grateful), to liberate France, Netherlands, Belgium etc were the 4th largest army in the European theater of war? British army in Europe at the time had the approximate strength of that in Czekoslovakia, i.e. hardly significant.

Do you think that Dollars that Britain borrowed from their best friend, the US, could have put on uniforms, grab weapons and do the actual fighting?

Tha gratitude, dear Shelley, has two sides, and history is just that - an account of facts. It seems you do the whining. Are you ticked off that Brits, although victorious in the end, did not come out of the war without a large blemish?

Read relevant parts of Churchill's memoirs. They contain one big theme of unclear conscience on the part of the British.

Whining is on your part due to some claim you have equipped Polish Army..
(I am now starting to understand), so do I, the problem is not the national pride on your part, just lack of knowledge. Polish Air Force in Great Britain was an independent air force, though operationally within the RAF structure. The equipment it used was, as that of the entire Polish Army in the west, leased by Great Britain to the Polish government. After the war, a bill for over 68 million pounds sterling, covering the equipment and operating costs of the Polish Army in Great Britain was paid from the gold reserves deposited in Canada. Contrary to your claim here Poland paid for its own Army needs and fought for British cause. F*** to all who claimed otherwise, not a penny of British debt can be attributed to the Polish cause. It's you who are ungrateful.

Well, the Spirit of Holland just told me that a bit of common sense wouldn't hurt any of you at all..

;)

You see - it's simply common sense, Shelley.

1. Overwhelming British/French advantage on the western front.
2. Most and best Wehrmacht units fighting in Poland.
3. Germany at that moment in time absolutely not being able to fight
on two fronts (that was admitted even by German politicians and generals).

Sum all this up and what you get? A QUICK VICTORY...
...but you sat on your butts.


Oh, I forgot - you were MEDIATING :-)))))))))))

[quote=ShelleyS]
I am also aware that Poles are the most ungrateful kunts to walk this planet!

Well I see nearly every other day in the tabloids whining stories about how the Poles are taking every ones jobs etc, are they not grateful that polish plumbers are fixing their blocked up drains and repairing their broken toilets.

Whining is now become a art form with the Daily Mail and Express competing against each other who can come up with the best whining whinging story.

Invasion, overwhelmed, overun are some of the headlines these papers use.
But no mention of the 650,000 Tamil Tigers living in the UK, who are currently protesting around Westminister, as if the Government can do anything about what is going on in that country.

Dutch were not regarded as Untermenschen by Germans unlike the Poles.That is why Holland suffered relatvely very low losses during the WW2.

Well, it's a small country too..

;)

that a bit of common sense wouldn't hurt any of you at all..[/quote]
and not the point you were trying to make anyway.

It's in the past.

:)

..that's my point. But go ahead and bicker on about all the gory details if you must.

Both

Tosser,you have zero idea of where or how I was living in those times.Did your neighbours get arrested by your countries security forces on numerous occasions simply for being active members of a trade union? Did your entire county get asset stripped and face 60-70 % unemployment during the 1980s? Did you see your personal freedoms eroded ? Did you see entire communities having to live for 12 months on the charity of friends,no wages ? So get a grip you whinger,poland isnt the only place with tough times and hard luck stories, you tell anyone who lived in the North of England during the 80s,in a mining community that you think you had it tough,sorry old fella,unless you actually did spend time in a Gulagyou'll get a sonnata on the worlds smallest violin.....!


Hi old buddy,long time no headbutting......laugh,I nearlly bought a pizza,explain please dear freind how exactly declaring war on germany because it wouldnt leave poland would have "saved our(untill we got involved in ww2 rock solid empire)empire"? I cant remember there being any British colonies anywhere near Danzig,can you?


Aye,but atleast we didnt F ing invade it alongside the nazis did we old fella?

but ,at the end of the day....YYYYAAAAWWWWWNNNNNN.

Not to answer for him but:


Yes, this was the case in Poland between 1945-1989, not only for being members of trade unions. Many never returned or were heard from again. Some lived underground (false identities) in their own country for fear of being imprisoned or executed for their political views or affiliations.


Yes, Poland's assets were being stripped between the years of 1944 and 1989 by the USSR. Railway tracks, entire factories, food, cash etc was being stolen from Poland.


This was experienced by few Poles of my generation and his. The reason was simple. There were hardly any freedoms left to loose after the USSR took over.


Were these the people who went to the apartheid ruled South Africa to make some change? Few Poles could do that even if they wanted to chase backs around, since they lacked the freedom to simply emigrate with the hope of returning home one day and not being arrested.

Oh,I love this.....are we talking in the 2 to 3 week period ,OK,17 days,that Poland stood any chance of not being carved up by jerry and ivan? If we are,lets see;

1, Overwhelming french PAPER army, only half mobilized,under trained and in the usual french tradition of being pulled a dozen ways by a weak government. point 1A being there were NO british forces on continental Europe at the outbreak of war. Im soo sorry we hadnt thought to build the channel tunnel yet,must have been polonophobia on our part,ya know,dont make it easy to get an army accross the sea,it might help those whinning poles .........

2, er,maybe at first,but once the brest litovsk carve up was agread,no,mostly police and reserve units.By the time Britain had anything aproaching an Army across the channel Poland was well and truelly fcuk'd,the nazis were facing west,and,as Im sure your country would do,you thought of the defence of your own first,treaty obligations second,or,was the pre war polish dictatorship,the one who helped carve up czechoslovakia and for many years in the 30s wanted an alliance with germany,was your goverment one who would sacrifice your own country and people for some one else?

3, What 2 fronts muppet,again,by the time western allies were mobilised in France and belgium germany only had one real front,facing west.


I said COUNTY mate,not country,some counties in the UK faced problems and unemployment far larger than anything Poland experienced in the 90s so to blanket statment RICH WESTERN is plain bubble headed. Try telling the car workers in detroit they were having it easy a few years ago......rich country maybe,still "issues".


Yeah,right mate.......sure they did.These were people who had NO MONEY,so having the freedom to travel might have been dandy,tough titties if you could never aford it.

We have a saying around here amongst poles and brits,in the 80s in Poland you all had jobs and money but nothing in the shops, we had full shops but no jobs or money,same ole sh*t,different angle dont you agree?


yeah,ok,sorry fella, I knew too many Poles who did just that in the 80s,came here for a few years,went home to poland for a bit and then came straight back.......

We simply took back what the Czechs stole from us when our army was busy fighting
the invading red hordes during the Polish-Soviet war.


True. Moreover - I don't give a flying fcuk where or how you were living in those times.


Look - you said that 10 years of Margaret Thatcher's rule were worse than gulags
and 45 years of communism in Poland. If you said that tongue in cheek or under
influence of huge amount of alcohol then it's OK and we have nothing to talk about.

If you were serious then it makes you an idiot and we also have nothing to talk about.

of course it was you muppet,but,sorry to say your just reinforcing the stereotype of humourless Poles,again.
Simply put,you guys seem to think everything was roses and light for anyone not "lucky" enough to live under the fraternal umbrella of Moscow. Thats as silly as a westerner with the idea that day to day life in the east was a constant round of working on a kholkhoz,attending may day rallies and being woken up by knocks on the door from KGB/KBW/RSPCA while whistling the song of the volga boatman....

Good to have you back.
I thought you might have been killed in one of those reenactment battles.

My debate is not about declaring the war on Germany but rather about the British debt after it was all over. Like I said before, we paid our share so that had nothing to do with us but nice try anyway. Simply stating that if it was not for Poland, Britain would not be in the mass it found itself after the war just won't do, or that somehow it's all our fault.

Well said Arien...It might come as a shock to most Poles on this site, but Poland was just not worth fighting over in 1939...Poland has never been or will ever be a great Country...Why not...because they have never been a great people!...Think about it?

Do you have anything to support your ridiculous claim or are you talking
through your arse again?

If we wanted an alliance with Germany we would have it.
In fact, muppet, Poland was repeatedly offered to join the anti-comintern
pact but each time we steadfastly refused....

snpp.pl/Poland%20PreWWII%20activities_24grud_Hist.htm

...so check your facts before you start spouting pish on a Polish forum.

but there came 1944 and Allies promised to liberate Holland soon if the Dutch underground is actively sabotaging and fighting Germans. The Dutch did as were told, the Allies never came in 1944 (it's not that they did not want to), there were lots of reprise from Germans they took most food from Holland and eventually flooded most of the land - the winter was pretty harsh for the Dutch. I have seen the graves of the Dutch underground fighters killed executed in 1944 (some of them were probably actually no fighters like it happened quite often when the German military were involved) and it was as far as at todays German-Dutch border.

and yes Torq the Brits are mostly quite ignorant to Polish history (if not completely) but still have big mouth like isthatu

I disagree, I think Poland has great potential. I just think most Polish people forgot about their potential (No offense!) during all those years of communism.

Also, I know the truth behind a few stories, and really the Polish fought like lions in Holland, and they managed to liberate the English troops who had found themselves completely surrounded due to a huge mistake and the unwillingness to listen from a certain General who happened to be Montgomery. (This event got covered up shortly after the war because of politics and propaganda, but a while ago, the Polish finally got their reqocnition!)


One correction though, our people were actively sabotaging the Germans from the day they found themselves occupied. Many people succesfully hid Jewish.


Some of them were workers who refused to work in factories for the Germans. (Half my family got executed for refusing to work for the Germans!)

People who say that our country suffered little losses, aren't quite aware of the fact that our country only had a small population. (Although it's true that the Germans favoured Aryans, so I guess that most of the Dutch were just lucky to be both blonde and blue eyed!)

Holland declared itself neutral in the beginning. (Not really!) Hey, what do you expect? Their country is twenty times bigger than ours? I'm proud of all our boys though, they've fought extremely well. (And so did the rest!)

:)

It's easy to talk about the whole war in hindsight, but I think we all know that it has been a horrible time for all of Europe. (I understand why the Polish felt betrayed in the aftermath, but really, all of our countries were devastated, and not really ready to fight the Russians.) Had they done that, even more people would've died.

I seriously doubt that would've been good news for Poland?

No arguments there,in financial terms,both our countires ended up shafted,but it is plain logic that dictates,if Britain had stayed neutral,which historical evidence proves Hitler would hve been more than happy to live with,we wouldnt have expended the millions of pounds and lives that brought about the collapse of our empire.Without the western nations ( Britain,France and Holland) being involved in a war that hitler plainly wanted to confine to the east the Japanese would never have felt in a position to expand outside of its china/korea empire.Pearl Harbour probably would have never been bombed and,well,you can guess the rest mate as your a very bright guy :)


It would be rediculous to state that "if it was not for Poland..." as though it was Polands fault for being invaded....a more accuratte apraisal would be,it was the fault of earlier western governments,britain and france cheiflly who failed to bring hitler in line when that would have been simple,mid 30s. But also,it still doesnt negate the fact that Britain DID declare war BECAUSE Poland was invaded(or rather,because the germans didnt retreat or stick to a fairly legitimate claim for a land corridor),I say again,not Polands fault,Nevile Chamberlins and the cabinet for declaring war.

And if your going to bring up post war again,not that old chestnut,please get it,in 45 no bugger in britain was going to go to war against the red army,sorry about that.


hhmmm


well,frankly,Poland doesnt register on many peoples historical radar outside of,well,Poland. But ,saying that,have you met all 60 odd million of us to back up your claim?

On the flip side plenty of Poles who seem to have an encyclopedic knowladge of Poland have about as much wider knowladge as the average American or British HighSchool kid, watching a movie about Custers Last Stand(the clue really should have been in the title,"They died with their boots on") I was asked midway through whether the nice cavelrymen escaped from the redskins trap!!!and this by a person who could recite for hours on detailed examinations of anything from obscure home army units to biographies of all the kings of Poland.


What event is this specifically mate, Im guessing Arnhem 44 but your going to have to narrow it down a bit or Im going to have to point out that those same Poles were "rescued" by British troops of the wessex and Dorset regiments;),Oh,and no arguments,Monty was a tosser,and alleged kiddie fiddler to boot.,still kicked Rommels arse though :)

As for "cover ups" I doubt it,for those interested the Battles around Arnhem are probably the most widely studied and documented of engagements of the war.

It would have been incredibly hard to have a cover up,especially in my neck of the woods,considering that all or most of the Polish airborne veterens stayed on here after the war and socialised with their british airborne comrades.

The only way I could in any way concede a "cover up" is simple with a surfiet of memoires from British veterns of the battle,who after all outnumbered the Poles 10 to 1, those Polish stories may have been lost in the crowd,but again,only for those with little or no interest in the battle anyway,those like myself who have studied it,walked the ground many times and honoured the allied veterens of all nations at their various and combined memorial services both here and in the netherlands on numerous occasions, know just how well the Poles fought,and how tragic were the loses they suffered,and we know that those loses and fighting spirit were a part of every soldier in that battle regardless of nationality,and I do mean totaly regardless,yep,even the moffen SS behaved with (relative) honour and undoubted elan.

Your argument is based on the assumption that Hitler was going to attack Poland anyway, well for all you know his main target could have been France.

French and British guarantees simply directed Hitler against Poland and hve bought some time for western nations.

Sorry,but on 1st sept 39 hitler invaded poland ,may 10th 1940 hitler invaded france,facts old boy. So,to clear up the time line,hitler had been,well his troops anyway,in Poland for 3 days by the time of the Franco/British decleration of war.

Hitlers main targets were never France or Britain,documents prove that Hitler was quite willing,infact very keen that the french and british maintained their own empires to ,in his plans,act as future trade partners for the empire he wished to build in the east. Proof of this lies in the fact that only a fairly small section of metropolitain France was actually occupied by the germans and all french oversees territories,ie its empire,remained under full french Vichy control.


Wrong and right,Hitler,by the time of the invasion of Poland had already got the only territory he claimed as German to the west,the Saar and Rhineland,only teeny bits near Stasbourg were still coveted but he was prepared to sacrifice these for gains in the east.

Im interested in how much time you think it would have bought though,lets see,Hitler free in the east,allied to the soviets but only till some fancifull "what if" version of Brabarossa. How long do you suspect the war in the east would have dragged out? Would it like the first world war have taken part predominantly back and forth accross Polish and prussian lands or taken place further east? At what point would hitler have felt secure enough to take on the combined might of the western allies who,if at first slow to realise the full dangours of germany as witnessed by the admittadly paltry forces available to counter the actuall assualt in the west in '40, would have ,in this convenient parralel universe of yours built up sufficient forces to act as a block against anything the nazis may have planned. If it had worked that way I imagine a situation not unlike the cold war,only in that senario all Poles would have been wiped out by the year I was born rather than freed from a dictatorship when I was 13.

well, if Britan remained neutral in the first place our discussion would be pointless.
So tell me Master - Why Poland have been given guarantees?
( charity, love for Poland, goodness)
Im at lost, please help me Master!

“If Britain had stayed neutral” I simply don't see it as a plausible alternative to the events that lead to WWII. Correct me if I'm wrong but the lead up to the war was all about blaming France and Britain for all of Germany's problems, their economic hardship (and humiliation) imposed on them by you guys? It stands to reason that some kind of revenge would be in order. Another factor that can't be ignored is Hitlers belief in the superiority of German people and their resolve. In Hitlers eyes Britain was virtually out of the war after Dunkirk, apart from the Luftwaffe, Germany was happy to let the Italians take on Britain in the deserts of North Africa proving to me once more how much he himself thought of Britain. To be honest I'm not completely sure what the deal was with Britain, whether or not Germany expected you to surrender or what? Your scenario is wishful thinking at bast but it would never be.


Yes Britain did declare war on Germany after the invasion of Poland by Germany but to argue that was the main reason for Britain declaration of war is simply false. The way I see it, it was British policy at that time and Nevile Chamberlains eagerness to appease the Germans at every turn that finally convinced Hitler of how weak the western Powers must really be and give him confidence to start war which he would be able to win. This simple act of kissing his A** is really what eventually put Britain on the collision course with Germany and Poland just an excuse to declare war, which sooner or later you would have to do anyway.