Polonius3: - Contrary to the colonial tradition of suibjugating nations regarded as inferior, Poles have always adhered to the maxim: "For your freedom and ours", -- the belief that a fight for freedom anywhere in the world is a struggle for a free Poland;
Ukrainian Cossacks were said in Polish Sejm to "be nails that have to be cut off once in a while". No, you never regarded anyone inferior to yourself and you fought for my country's freedom as well ;););););););). My head bows to my ancestors that kicked bad your "superior" or "better" as*es, even though I see it didn't reach far enough into the future generations. You could have been so much more if you weren't "better" all the time. Please, don't make out of yourself what you are not.
My head bows to my ancestors that kicked bad your "superior" or "better" as*es, even though I see it didn't reach far enough into the future generations. You could have been so much more if you weren't "better" all the time. Please, don't make out of yourself what you are not.
are you sure you're talking to me Nathan? I guess you mean Polonius3
Yes, Freebird, I am referring to Polonius3. I simply found his quote in your post and used it. His post was on the other page and this is why I used yours :)
My head bows to my ancestors that kicked bad your "superior" or "better" as*es
and immediately went to russians and let them to fvck your peasant asses for the next few centuries. sorry mate but everything shows that you are the nation who has to be ruled by someone else. you gain your independence in the early 90 and still dont know what to do with your freedom. ukraine is one big mess.
Ukrainians fought Russians as well, Messy boy. If you read history, you will find many moments were Russians were destoyed on the battlefields or by partisans in the forests. Sometimes it is difficult to fight many enemies at the same time, you know. There were mistakes, there were successes and this is a constant process up until now and into the future. To say that Ukraine is a mess is to have absolute "0" knowledge of its history and ongoing political processes. It doesn't need to be ruled, it constantly fought for its freedom, so Ukrainians can rule themselves. To say that the country is in a mess after "friendly" wars from Poland and Russia starting in 15th century and ending in 1991 is greatly missing the point. We move ahead and I look forward to have business and cultural links we enjoy nowadays between Poland and Ukraine. It's good step forward. And by the way, WE KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH OUR FREEDOM, PUT YOUR NOSE IN YOUR OWN FREEDOM AND ENJOY IT!
Nathan - never mentioned it was in Ukraine - it was mostly in Podlasie, Litwa parts of Białoruś - don't know the circumstances in Ukraine well but I guess there were hardly any zaścianki szlacheckie there (noble villages - villages inhabited by nobles). I never said we are superior (though hussaria was superior to anything in their age :P )
the other half of the 30's was not a good time in Polish-Ukrainian relationships - in Poland an option won for the assimilation of Slavic minorities (restrictions on Jewish higher education as well - quota)I know it actually ended in pacifications with casualties, destroying Orthodox churches in Wołyń. It all had a gruesome epilogue later in war times. before there were different policies in place. Piłsudzki's dream was a belt of independent but cooperating nations for mutual protection against Russia whatever coulour it might have been. I am not sure if Pilsudzki was ready to sacrifice Lvov for the sake of good relationships with indepedent Ukraine but it was eventually out of question cause free Ukraine has collapsed. Perhaps Poland should have given serious autonomy to the Ukrainians within its borders. Not sure why it did not.
You quoted Yoshi who was talking about Ukraine. Maybe, you haven't noticed that only two countries were mentioned Ukraine and Sweden; nothing was said about Lithuania or Byalorus'.
hussaria was superior to anything in their age :P )
I don't know enough detail about it to make a serious comment (especially from the other side), however, that a significant percentage of both regions/nations did not want to be part of Poland and resisted Piłsudski would suggest a bit of subjegation going on. The treatment of Ukrainian speaking communities in the 1930's might also suggest a few things about 'superiority'.
What is interesting is that during the interwar period Polish ethnologists were at great pains to point out that groups such as the £emko and Hutsul were "Polish" and spoke a "Polish dialect". In 1947 these groups were labelled as "Ukrainian" and subjected to a form of ethnic cleansing which lasted about 10 years. (Yes, I know the offical reasons for Akcja Wisła)
It kind of negates the OP's righteousness about Poland not being 'colonial'.
I probably blame them as much as Polonius seriously believes what he writes about 'colonialism' etc (probably not much). I assume he's(?) joking but you can't mention things like colonialism and subjegation and then say "sorry, our last 50 years don't count!" People say, "It was the Polish communist authorities" but they were still Poles, even if they were working for the Soviets.
I know a bit more about Akcja Wisła because I have interviewed people who were moved during it. Some of them stayed in Warmia-Mazury. Others returned home. some mentioned the kindliness they experienced from ordinary Poles when in the holding camps.
In some villages in Warmia-Mazury there are "Ukrainian" communities who still faced discrimination until recently and couldn't talk about their experiences.
Thankfully it is something which is changing and I know some people involved in changing it. Polish people.
Well, nice set of cheap propaganda and pure nosense, outright bulls**t. And what it has to do with 1930s? I just wonder did you come up with this idiots food yourself ...
"but they were still Poles, even if they were working for the Soviets" - I'm sorry, but this looks like blaming for me. Trevek, you know that ordinary Poles have nothing to say about what was happening in their country. They didn't choose this people. One can blame Poles for politics before the war, but after?
Do you know how little freedom was in Poland back then and how Poles were treated? "sorry, our last 50 years don't count!" - this 50 years were under Soviet rule, and occupation, not Polish rule. Poland regained her independence in 1989. On occupied territory there are always some collaborators - they were polish communists.
You're missing the point, Guest. If Polonius asks the question "Are Poles Superior To Brits?" and then starts getting righteous about colonialism and subjegation and saying that 'traditionally' Poland was so tolerant (a fact I'm aware of and have argued for against hostile forces) then I have a right to play him at his own game.
Are you aware that in 19th Century Britain poor people were locked up in places similar to prisons. They were very restricted in their ability to move and, if they fell on poor times, were often transported back to their original town/village. Working people did not have the vote until late into the 19th Century. So how much do you think the ordinary Brit had the power to oppose the government over colonialism? How much education was there?
I hear people slag the British for colonialism, for messing up WW2, for mad cow disease. But how much do you really think this is the fault of the ordinary Briton? How much was the transportation of orphans and children to Australia during the 1940's and 1950's the fault of ordinary Brits, who probably weren't even aware it was going on? Do you blame the Germans for WW1 and WW2? Do you think all Germans were responsible? Do you blame all Russians for the Soviet suppression of Poland?
If you read about the expulsions of the Germans after the war, you find some adminstrators were only too happy to get rid of them (not surprisingly), while others bent the rules slightly to allow them to stay because it was useful to have them to work the land. Now, these are the same people who were running the country in 1947.
Things like Akcja Wisła are not things I hold any blame about because they are not my history. I have no investment in it. I have spoken to people who DO blame Poles. I've also spoken to old people who finish their wartime recollections with... "And then came the Ukrainians", to a deafening and chilling silence. I've heard an old man say, "If Hitler hadn't stopped them, the Jews would have taken over Poland!" Yet there's no way I think ALL Poles hold such views. I have to walk a line and have to hear all and say nought, occasionally.
If the conversation is going to focus on 'colonialism', one might ask exactly how Poland got to be the biggest force in Europe at one point (reaching upto Estonia, I believe). Somehow I don't think it was because all these little groups and tribes were rushing to join the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth without a bit of coercion.
If the conversation is going to focus on 'colonialism', one might ask exactly how Poland got to be the biggest force in Europe at one point (reaching upto Estonia, I believe). Somehow I don't think it was because all these little groups and tribes were rushing to join the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth without a bit of coercion
Good point, Trevek. Respect your objectivism and reasonal thinking.
And what it has to do with 1930s?
It happened in the 30s., time of the Great Depression and the Femine. People were hungry and were looking for food. What is your point?
I just wonder did you come up with this idiots food yourself ...
Yeh, I have nothing else to do. It is history, man.
Guest: OK, whatever. I'm not really that interested in having a running argument with you. I was replying to the OP's comments which make Poland look so white and righteous. Sorry, but NO nation is as sweet and lovely as it would like to believe.
Good point, Trevek. Respect your objectivism and reasonal thinking.
Trevek, that's very important. Poland isn't without a fault and has her own sins. But blaming Poland for crimes commited by communist puppets that were given orders from Moscow, that's just not fair. Poland was occupied country then.
Nathan - I'm not pretending anything. I'm not talking about Commonwealth as you can see.
Guest, for the last time, I don't "blame" anyone. I really don't care about 'THEN'.
A couple of years ago your own country was so busy chasing alleged 'collaborators" that the whole country was terrified by a government which was so anti-communist it didn't realise it was acting the same way, using scare tactics, police stings, secret records only they had... whilst ignoring the fact some of their own people sat on the side of the martial law (think Giertych's daddy). These same people were denying rights to people just because of their sexuality, or religion. Isn't that a bit more worrying?
Again. I'm not interested in continuing. I'm going to bed.
You have rised interesting question by whom should we evaluate nations? Ruling class or criminals?
If the conversation is going to focus on 'colonialism', one might ask exactly how Poland got to be the biggest force in Europe at one point (reaching upto Estonia, I believe). Somehow I don't think it was because all these little groups and tribes were rushing to join the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth without a bit of coercion.
One might ask and one might think whatever like but better still one might do some inguiry.
Often there is little difference (at least in the eyes of the oppressed).
What is also important is not to immediately judge the 'ordinary' citizen because of the actions of their 'leaders'.
One might ask and one might think whatever like but better still one might do some inguiry.
Well, I don't think the ancient Prussians would have been jumping for joy when a Polish king asked the Teutonic Knights to visit them (can't ask them myself at the moment).
That Lithuania signed a declaration of independence in 1918 which did not signify unification with Poland and then fought a war over what they saw as Polish encroachment might also suggest something.
As I said earlier, I'm not interested in 'blame' but there are usually at least two sides to a story.
As to the rest of the sh!te in the topic I'll stick a lovely British victory (reversed) v to you! I am not going to apologise for colonising or being born in one of the greatest countries to have ever existed.
Regarding colonisation, if you remember correctly this little island had been invated and colonised a few times, you do remember the Romans, the Saxons and the Normas? I suppose we just made the best of it and were destined to be Great, which in itself says that we are in fact superior!
using all logic included in your post,well, your ancestor were Great and today's British generations are just a shadow of that - that's about you being superior :) were you also destined to fall short of the Empire? or just bad weather :P
Alright! It's been a while, I'll admit that much, but feel free to look it up, we even seized your most prized possession twice. ''The Sovereign Of The Seas''.
;)
And to make things even funnier, we've sold you back your own ship!
I am not going to apologise for colonising or being born in one of the greatest countries to have ever existed.
Hey, no one's actually asking you to apologize for anything?
Regarding colonisation, if you remember correctly this little island had been invated and colonised a few times, you do remember the Romans, the Saxons and the Normas? I suppose we just made the best of it and were destined to be Great, which in itself says that we are in fact superior!
Yup.. (Hey, you know I happen to like your little island quite a bit, but superiour? I'd say we should call it even, just because we're such a small country!)
Seanus, it's questionable even to talk about "better" anyway. Bread? British make great bread when they want to... Lithuanian bread is better again. Cooking, likewise, although the Polish staple diet seems tastier, better and healthier it is also fat laden and salt-rissen (just the way I like it). I've known Brits who cn turn a pretty decent hand in the kitchen and Poles who are useless (although why is the main Polish celeb chef always going abroad and the other one is a Frenchman anyway?)
Homemaking? I know a number of families both in Poland and UK who can/cannot make the grade. A lot of Poles I know (have known) are divorced (as are quite a few Brits). Must have been great homemakers, huh?
And don't start me on the driving business!
It really is a pointless exercise.
I think the way to look at it is that Poles consider their country to be one created by God. The English consider themselves a self-made race... which relieves God of any responsibility!
It'd be better just to say 'different'. I don't get into this BS with ss at my schools. They try and provoke and make out that it's like a paradise here but I don't take the bait.
Good point about the bread. After 1 day, it's almost stale here. I prefer British bread as it lasts longer. I don't mind that some preservatives are in it.
