14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion!

Rape is such an awful thing because the mother and child are both innocent victims. Once a woman is raped she is never the same. She doesn't want the child but doesnt want to be a murderer either. She doesn't deserve to be put in this position. The child does not deserve to die before it is born. But the decision should be that of the woman. It is her body and she should not be forced by law to carry this child. Especially when the mother is a child herself.

The Virgin mary was a rape victim if you really want to apply the definition here. 14 years of age. Forceably impregnated by God. He didn't ask. He just made her pregnant. She almost got divorced because of this..shamed...cast out. And God did this to her.

If this girl could see into the future. If she could see how she would feel once she had the abortion, she would see that even though she did not deserve this, she will feel better about her life forever and will not regret having the child, but would always regret killing it. Have the child and adopt it out. That's best for the mother for her entire life.

What absolute nonsense! Who are you to say what's best for the mother? Would you volunteer to pay all the vital expenses that are involved in raising a kid, especially an unwanted one? Never heard of restitution? What if she was from a low-income family and already supporting other kids? Don't the words harsh reminder mean anything to you?

It sounds harsh itself... isnt it?

It most certainly does. If we are about granting reasonable choices then we have to look at the flip side too. Why should she bear the burden of a heinous crime? I think mansun should away and target those in the UK that get abortions due to 'slips' and leave these poor, traumatised victims alone. Yes, Polish too.

I want to agree on all that you said. But I dunno ... it all adds up and looks so similar to a crime. Afterall, whats the fault of the kid.

If abortion were to be made legal, so many people would just go ahead to quench their thirst for lust and just like a senseless, remorseless, inhumane and immoral human, go ahead and have an abortion. This sir, is completely unacceptable.

But... about a rape victim... I just am in two minds. I hope only goods happens in this case.

Well, such a state of affairs exists in Britain. There is a horrible attitude to abortion. However, you have to place hope to one side here and deal with what is. I just cannot fathom the idea of not granting a rape victim an abortion. Geez, if abortion is legal in Britain for the careless, surely it can be legal for the victims of rape.

Why not take a firmer stance on war? These are people who have developed personalities and die. An embryo doesn't.

Oh I hate wars. I am as firm as there can be on this issue.


Yea.. its hideous.


Oh its so complicated man :S . One thing is sure ... perhaps I will never be a part of any team ... neither those want it, nor those who dont.

Hope Almightly does what is best.

Always think about the victim, Lodz. Put yourself in their shoes.

Again, the young girl is already damaged. An abortion will just damage her more. I've known women who had abortions. Even when they got pregant by some buy they didn't like. They had an abortion and regretted it. I agree..having a kid which was forced on you is a difficult thing to deal with.

It is her decision. Even her parents should not make this decision for her.

It is an old story now. I'm sure it is too late for an abortion anyway.

The girl initially mentioned in this thread finally had an abortion if I remember correctly.

I think that people should not do abortions as frequent as it's done in many countries. But if you get raped, it's torture not to be allowed an abortion. People who deny someone that is against all kinds of dignity of the human race. Go visit an Eastern European Orphanage.

It's not difficult to get a safe abortion in Poland today. But it's (usually) illegal and costs a lot of money. And there are some cases when it's legal to have an abortion in PL.

Spot on commentary from SwedishPole.

In case of rape, I'm absolutely in favor of abortion.

Encouraging the woman to have the baby is rewarding the rapist by allowing him to pass on his genetic material to the next generation.

Well said, mafketis. Can you imagine being asked the question, 'who's the father?', time and again? I'd love it if God experimented with men who could have babies. See how quick to judge they'd be if another man raped their hole and forced a baby on them.

Utter nonsense. It is normal biological process. Things often turn different from our expectation without out personal fault. Even according to the UN definition of torture this is not the case.


Rape is against dignity and not a birth of new life! Currently a rapist is protected by generally speaking human rights (vacation in luxury hotel old-fashionably called prison ) and innocent life can be murdered. This is sick.

Lesser, I take offense to what you are saying. Really!!! You really write without thinking sometimes.

What if you could have a kid and a man raped you? I guarantee you that you'd get rid of it. It is torture as it constitutes humiliating and degrading treatment. Why do you think psychologists are needed (the mental aspect, trauma etc) Also, the woman begins to feel unclean down there (physical aspect as well as pure invasion).

torturecare.org.uk/files/rape_singles2.pdf. Much good info is in the first few pages.

Besides, it is more infanticide you should be looking at.

Are you volunteering to pay for the costs of bringing up the kid? No? Well why should she against her will?

I will continue to write truth anyway. :)


For sure I would not punish my own child because some rapist. Seanus, I remind you that in our western civilization concept of family honor killing do not exist, this more Islamic thing. When did you converted?


Of course when you kill a baby this would solve all the problems and no place for trauma here. How simple! No, instead to pay incompetent psychologists to convince women that this is OK to kill her own child you could pay to competent ones to convince her that this is not a fault of baby and that what was tragic is already behind. Cost is the same but human dignity and innocent life is saved!


I didn't rape any women. You support the system which fund a luxury vacations for a rapist. I would send him to a labour camp and he would certainly participate in costs.

If you already decided to write about financial aspect. Tell me please how much innocent human life is worth according to your personal estimation. $$$?

What if your wife were raped? Would you raise the rapists' child?

Interesting to see its men arguing over something that will never affect them, well not directly.

I think its quite sad that the family had make up some story to get a girl an abortion, I think its even sadder that this poor cow has had to endure the humiliation of press attention, church poking their nose in and every tomek, dickek and harriek in Poland knowing what she has done.

I also see men on this forum making judgements and saying what is right and what is wrong...its a joke.

Her life is ruined, spoilt and goodness knows how she has dealt with all this, she's a 14 year old girl, a child....

If she had been allowed to get an abortion, there would have been none of this shite.

Pregnancy is a huge responsibility, something a man will never ever know, so you can debate about the rights and wrongs all you like, but only a woman can give a real view on this matter.

Please carry on, its irritating to watch but almost entertaining at the same time.

Of course no, I would kill the child, my wife and her entire family.

This is an old thread, and she did have the abortion in the end.

We both have truths, clearly mine are not the same as yours :) :) (Jesus Christ Superstar, the 39 lashes scene)

Your child? Lesser, a child is a planned thing. You think this way too as, were you to accept it is as unplanned, you'd be no better than those slack people who slip up and roll the dice with life. A victim of rape doesn't plan for a man to rape her and have a child by him. I'm guessing that you believe in a husband and wife having a kid and raising it in their way. Why then would you bestow this ghastly fate on a woman, to have a kid with a rapist who gave his sperm? Please address this as you keep ducking it. If my fiancee were raped, and touch wood she won't be, I'd expect her to have an abortion. Do you really expect that I'd bring up that child, knowing how it got there? Please open your mind to such eventualities. I don't want a kid that was provided by a criminal.

Honour killing does exist in countries that are more Western than Poland. Do your research on the Benelux countries and Scandinavia.

What baby, Lesser? Are you even aware of the time frames between foetus, embryo and, ultimately, conception? It is not a legal personality and hasn't yet taken its first breath. Are you aware of the dangerous and damaging precedent you'd set if you followed your logic of not allowing an abortion? Rapists would have an open license to wreak havoc.

Lesser, politicians send troops to war zones all the time. I sincerely hope that you are doing your utmost to bring them to justice. FAAAAAAAAR more innocent lives are lost this way.

Her own child, LOL. What, the one that she didn't want and plan? You really can't see it from the woman's perspective, can you? You come across as chauvinist and I thought you were smarter than that.

Life creation is by conscious design. Are you saying that rape victims consent to being raped in order to have their beloved kid? You seem to be but I hope not. Are you aware that rape is a crime against the will of the rape victim?

Please use wink marks as I think you are just having a laugh. Nobody can be that heartless and lacking in understanding.

Shelley, you are usually right but this time you aren't. Trust me, I can well imagine the horrors a woman would face.

lesser, you're dodging the question.

Again, my primary concerns are minimalizing the traumatic effects of rape on the woman and minimalizing the reproductive success of rapists.

If that means terminating (killing) a non-sentient non-viable fetus, then so be it.

Lesser, should a murderer not get multiple 25-year sentences for precluding/denying the possibility of the woman having 5 kids? You are talking about potential life and not a functioning human being with broad awareness and a well-defined personality.

What is your take on a murderer murdering a pregnant woman? One sentence of 25-years or two?

A man also becomes a father...either of the child's father, or the woman's who will give such a birth (or take decision). Dont make such steoreotypical statements.

All men are not phsycopaths. We have emotions too..and it effects us aswell.

Are we entering a discussion about abortion again? Seanus, tell me that this isn't true.

M-G (always the same subjects)

I'd like to tell you that, M-G, but I'd be lying. Lesser has some tough questions to answer.

His back is against the wall as I have asked him this too. He is bordering on the indefensible with his stance. He must address the practicalities and try to imagine this happening to innocent women with no desire to be traumatised.

I, for one, would respect my fiancee/wife's choice but would strongly encourage an abortion. I want us to have a baby from my sperm, not from some wack job.

It would be interesting to see such statistical data about percent of really planned children.


I never claimed otherwise, this is not any reason to murder anybody. Cheap shot Seanus...


Nobody would force her to raise this child. You are just looking for excuses to kill innocent life, face it.


So you blame the child for behaviour of biological father? This is old flawed concept of guilt by association.


You failed to mention that this is problem of Muslim immigration. Anyway this is just wrong and we must condemn such barbarity.


I'm perfectly aware that human life is a process. Child is not less human than adult, neither foetus is not less human than a child. This is one and the same life from the start to the end.


In opposition to you I'm in favour of sever punishment for a rapist. I think that in some drastic cases including castration. I need to remind you that new life is innocent in this story.


Of course this is important but you are choosing wrong way to achieve this goal. This is common knowledge that sooner or later most of women must deal with post-abortion trauma.(for example a women who made abortion possible in the US or some other who ran abortion "clinic" herself) They need to be helped by professional psychologists (in opposition to greedy ones paid by abortion lobby) who would explain them that what was tragic is past. Help them to see distinction between innocent baby and rapist. This is the only way to solve this problem.


You must be joking? First of all we cannot target a child because we don't like biological father. Secondary, most likely he give a damn about reproductive success. Such people have very high level of time preference. They are too concentrated on pleasure at the moment to even think much about consequences (like prison or children).

Beside of that in modern times western civilisation is dying, it means that reproductive success is not considered to be so valuable any more.

Thirdly, a man so obsessed with his personal reproductive success is a primitive. This is why I would be ashamed to look at the mirror if I would reject such child. Father in a cultural sense is much more important than biological one.


You write about potential life and I defend human beinmg that already exist.


One murder is enough to be awarded death penalty. But if there is no such penalty possible at the moment, this is correct to give murderer for example 50 years.


Yes, we will enter this discussion as long as problem wont be solved. By the way I read that even leftist radicals in Netherlands softened their stance on abortion. Access is more difficult and there are no more death ships polluting international waters. Step by step, educational process will lead to happy end. Mark my words!

In Poland, women tend to wait for the right man to come along and then they plan their kids. Or are you going to tell me otherwise, Lesser?

You are too hung up on murder which is lame. The point is, how could a self respecting legal system condone abortion if it thought it to be murderous? They clearly don't and please ask yourself why not.

Your third point confirms that you have lost the argument. I don't want innocent life taken. Read my posts in almost any related thread. I will almost always argue for the innocent party. This is my main approach. Nobody would force her to raise the child? Well, maybe she doesn't have the means to do it herself so I don't see many other options, do you? Adoption would be hurtful for her too. You really don't understand the issues of abortion fully and you have shown that.

What part of genetics don't you understand? I wouldn't blame the kid but the kid was a mistake. What crazy notion do you have? To spend your whole life raising a kid borne out of rape??? Is it really your kid? You are bordering on the absurd here, Lesser.

Honour killing issues were explored in a Star Trek episode. Again, it's exercising choice and there are many situations where it is defensible. What barbarity?? Those countries don't legislate solely for Muslims you know, LOL

Lesser, this is a child that was borne out of a heinous act. The 'child' doesn't have a developed personality and will be dead before it even knows anything about its environment or feels pain. You are preventing a lifetime of hurt, both for the mother and for the child.

Where did I advocate lenient punishments for rapists? You have opaque glasses if you think that. So you see rape as serious yet you won't let a woman forget about it by aborting? Hypocrite!! It is serious, of course!!

I don't see you jumping from the ceiling to target warmongers who take life away indirectly. This entity exists but isn't yet a child. My point stands, you are eliminating the problem before it becomes a much bigger problem.