14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion!

I don't know which articles you've been reading, but it couldn't be much further from the truth. (1 out of 7 women have had an abortion.)

Rather have it being done openly as it's much fairer than secretly as a lot of Polish women do abroad. No, we are (at least I am) not going to enter this discussion again. You know my point of view on this. No need to waste energy on discussions which are not necessary as it shouldn't be a point of discussion at all: abortion should be up to the woman in question and Seanus is right when he says that the entity is not a baby yet, not human, it's just an eggcell that has split itself a little more than twice. You yourself kill millions of cells like that everyday when you wash your face or even scratch yourself. I am pro-abortion, for anybody who didn't know that as I think that, like I said above, that it's up to the woman to decide, not to some church or some moralistic bunch of twats who have no clue.

In the case of the rapist: you say you cannot blame the kid for the father, which is true. However, if a woman gets pregnant from a rapist, do you want that woman to be punished for 9 months by carrying a child which was enforced upon her? You cannot be serious if you are convinced that this is right. You must be more intelligent than this.

M-G (good night)

I agree completely. 9 months and then her life as the kid would serve as a reminder. This kid which Lesser adores from a righteous point of view, how would he feel? Oh, my father was a rapist everyone, aren't I great? Pull the other one, Lesser. M-G and I value life as much as the next person but we also have feelings and rationality. We don't take radical and extreme positions like you.

Come on Lesser, hit us with your ace. We'll be ready :)

Yes, some women regret having abortions. For many the regret is transitory but for a tragic percentage (not the majority from any research I know of) it becomes a serious problem and the need counselling to work through it. But it's their problem, not yours, not mine. I believe in choice and I realize that means some women will make the wrong choice. Freedom isn't necessarily easy or hazard free.

A non-sentient non-viable fetus is not a baby and does not have the moral status of a baby and I know of no philosophical or ethical system that really thinks it is.

My own rubicon in terms of abortion is viability (roughly: the ability of the fetus to survive on its own without extraordinary medical intervention).

So, if for whatever reason a woman doesn't get an abotion by the time of viability (let's be conservative and say 20 weeks) then I don't think she should be allowed an abortion barring extreme extenuating circumstances (like the pregnancy being a physical danger to her health in which case I know of no one who thinks she should be compelled to carry to term).

That's why it's so important to terminate it ASAP, mafketis. Lesser won't see this, tho.

I would wish to see everybody here respecting teaching of the CC but people are far from being perfect. Or are you going to tell me otherwise, Seanus?


Current legal systems in western world are nothing more than worthless pieces of leftist state of mind. I question such regulations in many other points a swell. This is not an argument.


Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of your own words?


Do you deny than featus have the same DNA code as newborn baby? Do you deny that this newborn baby will have the same DNA code 50 years later? Do you deny that human life is a process? Please answer!


Seanus, you are really sure that you are not a mistake? Perhaps we need to send a death squad to sort this out? :) I hope that you will never adopt any kid because with your purely animal sense of being father such child would be very unhappy. Can you imagine that there are plenty of people with more sense that you, who have no problems to accept as their child who is not biologically their. Greatness of humankind origin from the fact that many of us were able to raise above from just purely biological instincts.


I hope that this LOL in the end means that you are just joking and you don't approve honour killings.


Does a newborn baby have developed personality? Perhaps killing them as well, some leftists already advocate such idea. Do you have developed personality?


Because this would contain a murder of innocent life. While women will never forget it and this is another reason for trauma. You are a hypocrite yourself because you failed to comment this issue. Seanus, be honest with yourself, you hide behind supposed good of a women just to cover your own laziness and egoism. This is about you unwilling to be a male of humankind (the one who is not lead solely by biological instincts).


Really? abortionreview.org/index.php/site/article/594/

This is of course far from final goal by as I said earlier Rome was not build in one day.


I would send congratulations but apparently I'm not sick enough to consider this to be a success story.


Nonsense, when she accept child then her perspective would be very different.


Again you push guilt if biological father on child. Such child would not have any contact with rapist, would be raised by other man accepted as father. This is just your another try to cover your personal weaknesses. Admit it!


That is a lie.


You have wrote before:

Again, [b]my primary concerns are minimalizing the traumatic effects of rape on the woman [/b]

You seems to changed your approach...


This is liberal ABC that freedom of one person cannot go against freedom of other people.


Your moral and philosophical concepts are nowhere where science is. As I replied to Seanus, human life is a process. Mind you that not so long ago some socialists in Germany claimed that the Jews don't have moral status of a human. This claim also completely ignore science and is based on flawed philosophical theory of racialist supremacy.


Mind you that newborn baby wont survive on its own as well! Neither some sick (even temporary) people would survive without help.


At least be honest with terminology. Be leftist without respect of human life.

lesser

No, you're right, Lesser, Seanus and I don't value life at all. "Oh my dear girl, were you so h*rny at that party that you had to f*ck that loser and now you're pregnant but it doesn't suit you because you're going on hols next month? Why sure, come here, we will suck it right out of ya!"

Don't be ridiculous, Lesser. It's up to the woman as it is her body and her life. I (and I am sure Seanus doesn't either) don't condone random abortions, but in the end it's the woman who decides. Who are you to decide about somebody else's life? If you think you can, then for sure you won't mind me telling you what to do either? It's easy to comment, based on some moral point of view, but if it's not your own situation, this judging looks rather ridiculous. I hate moral majorities anyway, they are no good and not of any use for anything. And besides, what makes you think it's your business to decide that a woman is bad for having an abortion or that abortion as such is despiccable?

I'm off to the Netherlands - according to some he is going to be in a sleazy cr*phole where they suck out babies ad random, kill everything that's older than 70, every female is a prostitute and everybody is on drugs. According to myself, I am just going to visit my parents in the peaceful village where I was born. Be back on Thursday. Behave in the meantime. Seanus, Arien, mvefa, Shawn and some others, keep an eye on all those rascals who say strange things until I get back, ok?

:)

M-G (signing off for a few days)

Ah, but Rome could be destroyed in one day.

;)


In other words, it didn't change anything. (I doubt you have even read the whole article.)


I merely stated a fact, I didn't condemn these practices, and I didn't call these practices a sucess story either. Oh, and aren't Christians supposed to follow their own religion? So whatever happened to you shall not judge?


No, you're the one who's lying now. I've known them long enough to know that they respect life. I respect life, and I also respect freedom of choice. But what do Christians know about the freedom to make mistakes? The freedom to learn from those mistakes? You don't make any mistakes, right? You're perfect, flawless and infallible..

Oh, and you speak of love, compassion, forgiveness and respect, but you can't even show the slightest bit of love or compassion for someone who had to make a real hard choice in life, and neither can you respect, or even forgive someone for being different than you..

Remember the guy who has cracked the Enigma code? He was jailed for being Gay afterwards, and they even castrated the guy chemically. He committed suicide two years later. How righteous. How good. How compassionate. Tell me, Christian, how do you respect life then, when you can't even respect another human being?

:(

"You seems to changed your approach..."

Not really. I have my opinion about what people should do but I ultimately recognize that it's their choice. You don't and want to force your opinions on morality on others.

Lesser, not everyone uses the RCC as the benchmark of honourable morality. Reason and rationality rule the day, laddie. Not self-righteous impositional morality that you espouse (of the RCC). After all, insanity is, according to the Scottish courts, 'the total alienation of reason'. You are decidedly moving in that direction. We have laws in place, let the legal system serve its function and stop deciding for everyone.

By knocking western legal systems, you are again being disrespectul with your holier-than-thou attitude. I studied the Dutch abortion provisions in detail and they really address the issues with an open mind and through a balanced/objective lens. The difference is, Polish right-wingers take the high ground without fully understanding the complexities inherent to the matter. Your arguments are far from cogent.

Not taking innocent life is a stated want but it's a qualified one. It's a general desire which cannot always be realised. Like M-G said, we don't condone random abortions based on people's carelessness. However, rape often involves no fault of the woman. You keep ducking the practicalities put by M-G and Mafketis.

They can have the same DNA code, yes. That changes very little as you'd be bringing the child into a world based on criminal wrongdoing. How could a woman have any pride from a baby spawned from rape??

You won't get many better fathers than I, Lesser. My compassion and dedication ensures that. I'd love a kid that was my own, not some rapist's. What animal instinct? More sense than me? Maybe there are some but that rings true for most.

Again, you show your black and white vision. Can't you see that one material factor could tip the balance in favour of another decision? Life is complicated and your dictatorial narrow-mindedness places you well down the pecking order in terms of your ability to evaluate and reach a reasoned position.

The process is made much easier if the child is still inside the woman. The child hasn't yet taken its first breath and hasn't yet started to give the feelings of joy that a newborn in your arms gives. It seems like you advocate the bearing of a criminal's child. How about his DNA, Lesser? How about his conduct? Do you approve of creating more criminal life?

Biological in that I want a kid of my own? From where I'm sitting, that's what most men want. Practical was the word that you were looking for. And in this, you come up very short as you have no conception of the living reality of having an alien child. I failed to comment on what??? I have answered your questions.

Laziness?? It's women who bear children, not men :) :) Egoism??? How on earth can that play a part here?

If she accepts the child then that is her choice. I never denied her that choice. Let her have a child by a man that she loves. Then she'll see the value of life and nurturing.

Accepted as the father? According to formalities, yes, but again and again you are missing the emotional bond that is so important. A kid should have a father that he loves and is the fruit of his labour. Why should a woman be a conduit for wrongdoing? The social stigma of rape doesn't need to be stated but she must live with this knowledge.

M-G, Lesser is in my pocket. He can generally argue well but he's losing by force here.

What a parade of parroting, know-nothing, morally-bankrupt clowns you are. Weak and pathetic. Personhood begins at conception. For the mentally-challenged of this board, this means that from the time sperm meet egg, a new human being is growing inside the mommy. This is a scientific fact. The more they look into it, the more it is proven.

So, this child was cut up with a sharp instrument,...and sucked out in pieces with a vaccum-cleaner, and the mother's womb scraped "clean" of any possible spare parts left in there, and all in the name of "humanity and decency". You sick parade of milque-toast weaklings. Why not kill the mother as well? After all,...she is also the victim of rape too,...and she will be such a burden to her family and friends,...what with all the psychological problems she is bound to develop due to the rape, and now also the abortion.

Though they were unsuccessful in their attempts,...praise God Almighty for people who actually stood up for the life of that child! And as for all you hand-wringing cowards spouting "Will they support her if she has the baby?" the answer is YES!!! Christian Charity, its about the only charity left in the world. I know a ton of Catholics and Protestants PERSONALLY who go out-of-pocket BIG to help unwed mothers of all kinds. And where will any of you selfish chump-change idiots be? Anywhere but where the rubber hits the road, with your weakling, feel-good rhetoric. In the end you don't really give a rats behind, you're only here to spew what the media has fed you; a steady diet of selfishness, Godlessness, and materialism. Make me sick.

And in steps the idiotic howling Harry hoof to give his tuppence worth. This verbal diarrh(o)ea from an American businessman no less. We can talk when you become sth noble like a teacher, not a screwmerchant.

That baby was never meant to be conceived you disingenuous prat. How dare you burden the mother with a lasting scar, what kind of creep are you? Get off your high horse and start thinking about it from her point of view. Chauvinistic pig! How dare you, how friggin dare you use the good Bible to smear your sh*t here!!!!!!!!?

I could really clock bellends like you! If the state refused my wife an abortion because a man raped her, I'd be livid. She will have my baby, not some dirty criminal's. Got it? Righteous wank*r! Wise up and start being more sensitive to the needs of the victim.

Gunslinger44

Gimme a break. Do all these noble warriors of morality take care of the unwanted babies that are being born in this world? Hm, bet they're not at home when these come calling. Don't give me that religious bullcrap about how a person starts at the conception. It's nothing more than an eggcell that gets penetrated by a semen. For the first 12 weeks it's nothing - no foetus, no baby, nothing but a few cells that are splitting and splitting.

It's the woman's body and it's up to her to decide what is happening to it. Not yours not some 2000 year old God who is not of this age anymore. Grow up and look around. It's a free world and ppl are free to do what they want.

Sorry, but I don't want to hear anything about this subject anymore: the statement concerning this is: IT'S THE WOMAN'S BODY AND IT'S UP TO HER WHAT SHE WANTS TO DO WITH IT, OK? NOT SOME GOD, NOT SOME DEMENTED, PERVERTED, CHILD MOLESTING PRIEST. And it's the only pssbl statement, the rest is all bullcrap. Sorry for shouting, but maybe it's more clearer this way.

Edit: I would suggest that, if you are so concerned about the life of these unwanted babies, you start collecting money to support them. I'd say we start with you, we will deduct 65% of your income for this good cause. I am sure you will have no problem with this as you are strongly in support of saving them?

>^..^<

M-G (good one, Seanus)

I've dealt with such fools before, M-G. In Hiroshima, I got involved in a tussle with Jehova's Witnesses for their harassing+intrusive behaviour. I often went to church as a kid and also got 100% in my RE exams. However, I never go around telling people what's what in the Bible as we must accept that Catholics and Protestants interpret the word of God differently. However, invoking the Bible to defend the product of a criminal action is misguided and downright insincere!!

I wonder if he'd be surprised that I am generally anti-abortion (though I don't like taking hard and fast positions). It is axiomatic that killing is bad but heuristics are only that, rules of thumb.

Let's put it to the man. Please imagine your wife just been raped and she is inconsolable. She feels dirty and wants to wipe any trace of this act out of her sight and memory. She trembles and is distant. She married you because she wanted your sperm to make a baby. You know, part of the standard family unit as a corollary of marriage. Are you gonna whip out the pro-life position and risk the deterioration of the marriage?? Practicalities remember :)

Seanus (even better one, M-G. Let his put his money where his mealy mouth is)

Yes. They do. I just told you that. I myself, as well as many others, have gien and continue t give out of our good fortune, to those in need, to include unwed mothers. Not to mention the fact we pay into Welfare, which does the same.

Careful, your brilliance is showing. It is scientific fact that personhood begins at conception. New DNA, hair color, eyes, personality. A new person. How did you think YOU started, anyway?

And "for first 12 weeks its nothing"? ARE YOU MENTALLY CHALLENGED? Or do you just normally bring half-baked ideas you've collected from the air, to a discussion such as this? Like bringing a knife to an international Thermonuclear show-down. Here's a medical fact for you: Baby's heart-beat begins 21 DAYS after conception. At 12 weeks the baby is kicking, about 2 inches long or so, and his or her kidneys are making pee.


Really, genius? Then tell me,...what part of the woman's body is the Fetus (which is Latin for "little one")? Tell me,...and no I don't need the medical term for what body part of HERS that baby is, just tell me in layman's terms (seems to be all you cn deal in anyway). Go on. What is the name of the WOMAN'S BODY PART, that is the baby?

Haha! You think that God is 2000 years old?

Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD -with the first of them
and with the last—I am he." Isaiah 41:4

Yahweh is from the beginning, and He will be for all of eternity. Read the Bible.

Your 'yahweh', not mine

Your concept of eternity, not mine

Your religious text, not mine.

You go right ahead and don't have an abortion. Don't others with different beliefs what to do.

Gunslinger44

Again, the person who doesn't agree to this nonsense, is being accused of having no knowledge at all. As if all the religious nutters have all the wisdom in ownership. You are not of this time Gunslinger, you are obsolete and you don't have a place in modern society. Go join lesser in the same religious cult where you can pretend together that you're right.

Christians always fail to see sarcasm, though.

Careful, your idiocy is shining through.

>^..^<

M-G (Rabidus vir audio ut Deus. Sapiens vir audio ut suus ego)

I'm not sure what you're saying:

1. Abortion is okay for non-Christians?

2. You want to impose your religious values in the law and make non-Christians abide by them?

That's what they all do. And then they blame the Jews and Muslims for doing the same. It's all the same crap all over again.

>^..^<

M-G (Luctor et emergo)

Gunslinger, let me explain. The American position on abortion was based on 'compelling logic' that the baby had to draw its first breath after the cutting of the umbilical cord. Many abortions were granted on the basis of 'the first breath' not having been drawn.

Care to explain?

thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=65.32.70.0

this is quite interesting and has some cogent arguments why abortion can be perceived as murder.

The vital question which begs asking is, 'can it be acceptable after rape?'.

christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life005.html

I'm really not convinced by the arguments proferred here. They are facile and underestimate the pain of the mother. I've read other websites like that one and the lack of compassion makes me sick.

Seanus

I'm leaving it all up to you, Seanus.

:)

>^..^<

M-G (is going to focus on animal rights again or maybe on Jews again - who knows)

I'll be back here later. I have to hit the sack now. What we must bear in mind at all times here is that the rape victim was 14 and not an adult capable of making informed consent to complicated procedures.

Seanus (retires to bed. Good night, M-G)

Good night, I'm turning in too.

>^..^<

M-G (busy tomorrow)

Sorry, giving informed consent is correct. Yeah, going to bed was the right idea :)

Well,...I am wrong? I cited that YOU said:


And then I stated some SCIENTIFIC FACTS that prove you are DEAD WRONG.

I think the evidence is damning, really.

And incidentally,...your cells are still splitting to this day. A newborn baby's cell are "splitting and splitting". It's called "growing", its what happens in LIFE. Death,...is what happens when masturbatory pseudo-intellectuals, such as yourself, reduce a living human being to scientific terminology. It makes it easier to kill them that way. To you, and to the masses of MTV drones who are too lazy to use their minds, let alone their hearts.

And I really like how you did not address a single point of mine. But only to spread some propaganda about Christianity being a brainwashed cult, and obsolete.

But you know what,...I took what you Godless heathen adore so much, Science, and I beat the sh*t out of you with it. God MADE Science, and you would try to use it against Him? Laugh! Tell me,...how does it feel?

IMHO, nothing changes the fact that the woman can immediately seek out an abortion for the purposes of restitution. As I said, I'm no fan of abortion either but this is very much a special case. There is evidence of an entity through conception and MUCH more than a parasite early days but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't through a consensual decision.

Anyway, I have to go but please be sensitive to the feelings of the woman, Gunslinger.

All mankind will be judged by God's Law alone. I myself would be found guilty on that great day,...except Jesus died for me, in my stead. So no,...abortion is not "OK" for anyone. I oppose it in all its forms. It is murder.


Absolutely. It's already been done in America, it's where we got our real and good laws. Ask the Founding Fathers.

God's Law is above man's law, just as the heavens are above the earth. "Thou shalt not Murder" "Thou shalt not commit adultery" "Thou shalt not steal" "Thou shalt not give false testimony"

Where exactly did you think laws came from, anyway? God's Laws have proven to be peaceful, loving, kind,...promoting harmony. Man's laws = sh*t. Everytime Congress gets together nowadays,....I cringe wondering what piece of filth they are about to foist upon us without our consent or acceptance.


Look Seanus,...I understand that this woman is severely traumatized for life, truly I do. And I can understand someone wanting to be "rid" of being pregnant from such an evil occurence...

However,...I refuse to allow the emotionalism involved cause me to consent in my heart to the killing of that child. The child is not at all guilty. And there are so very many people who are willing to adopt a child,...a child born under any circumstances.

Inside her, was a little baby,...who knew nothing of the reason why it was there...but only knew its mother. That is why the people were gathered to try to stop this from happening. It was love.

I am so very tired of dealing with "choicers" that it makes me want to vomit. They are, bar none, the most selfish, evil lot of cretinous monsters that I have ever encountered. The women, because they are heartless and selfish, and hate their own womanhood,...and the men because they are irresponsible cowards who don't want a child getting in the way of their frail, putrid "success", new HDTV, car, bag of chips and fat disgusting belly full of food. Anything that takes their mind from football when they aren't at work, is the devil to them. They are fat, effeminate, swinish creatures,...who have forsaken their position of leadership, except when it concerns who controls the remote to the TV.

You don't like abortions? So don't have one. Simple.


Of course it didn't know its mother. It didn't know anything: it wasn't capable of thought!

But here's an idea: inside you are two perfectly good kidneys, two perfectly good lungs and two perfectly good corneas, all of which can be transplanted into people who have none. Once you have used your body to give life to people who need it, then you can criticise people who refuse to do the same. You do give blood as often as you medically can, don't you?

The child is not really aware of its own existence yet but may have only some semblance of partial awareness. It's certainly not fully aware. If the woman goes very early to get an abortion, she can kill sth which is not a legal entity in the eyes of the law. Tell me, GS, are you pro-war? Murder is a crime of mens rea and actus reus. You are basing your analyses on the premise that there will not be a miscarriage. It is not yet an identifiable person in the eyes of the law or am I wrong?

Where is the malice aforethought? You can't tell me that most women get abortions out of spite and hatred for the embryo/foetus. In Scots Law, there is not the requisite mens rea for murder.

Please don't typecast how 'choicers' are. Some are attempting to approach this issue rationally and it is a multifarious one. I also have leanings against abortions and careless women who cheaply get pregnant. There was a spate of Catholic Polish women who got abortions in the UK which cuts against the grain of their beliefs. You see my point? You take a position but circumstances change it.

Do you have a daughter? You act like being raped is no big deal and all you care about is the anti abortion adgenda.
If the shoe were on the other foot, I m sure you would be singing a different tune.


Which one theres must be a 100 different versions? Yet Im sure yours is the right one.

Are you one of these fanatics who hangs out in front of abortion clinics and accosts people?