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The most spectacular errors in Polish politics.


TheOther 6 | 3,692  
5 Sep 2009 /  #121
Since we're on educating me i'll do the same for you

Appreciate it... :)

Actually, I was talking about the approx. 1 million German soldiers that were still sitting in the east. If those troops would have been sent to fight the Polish uprising, the latter would have been crushed, IMHO.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Offensive#Strategic_Impact
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
5 Sep 2009 /  #122
Actually, I was talking about the approx. 1 million German soldiers that were still sitting in the east.

We're talking about the garrisons of old men and kids running Ukraine and Russia that would have to return piecemeal through Poland which had legionnaries and veterans from both armies by the thousands?

They'd have to get through Poland first and given that a much better equipped and organised Soviets did not the Germans wouldnt get even near Poznań.

Also take into account that German army was not Wehrmacht of 1939, it used the same weapons and tactics as everyone else, was broken as far as morale is concerned and these were garrison units, every soldiers who knew how to hold a gun was in the West.

Even if you'd have all the Germans return via Czechoslovakia they still wouldnt be able to move as one organized milion strong force since they occupied a huge area, add to this the fact that they were no longer resupplied (Poland in the way again) and you basically get a 1920 war all over again except that instead of Soviet Russia you get a weak post WW1 Germany.
southern 75 | 7,096  
6 Sep 2009 /  #123
every soldiers who knew how to hold a gun was in the West.

In the West there were Osttruppen full of Russians,Poles,teenagers 15-18 y.o,very old soldiers,they were mosty 2nd category troops.The best divisions were always located in the East.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Sep 2009 /  #124
Yes Southern and pigs fly, how about you go back to how Poles invaded Russia threads?:)

By your suggestion Germans were incompetent idiots who kept their best troops in an occupied country and sent the second rate troops to the most important theatre? Good job:)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
6 Sep 2009 /  #125
So, there was an uprising in Poznan when the Germans were at the end of their tathers in 1918? Ghee, the unimaginable heroism. Of course, with the Michael offensive draining all their resources and with no success eventually and with the event of Amiens, they were not really paying attention to what was happening in the backwaters of Europe. And who could blame them.

The Armenians didn't come to an uprising, the very fear of them maybe wanting independence was enough to create a genocide on them.

M-G (tired)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Sep 2009 /  #126
Ghee, the unimaginable heroism.

Who says it was heroism? It was an opportunity.

they were not really paying attention to what was happening in the backwaters of Europe.

Quite a lot really, they've been preparing for a full scale offensive.

M-G (tired)

You mean an idiot?:)
sjam 2 | 541  
6 Sep 2009 /  #127
Polish political errors?

With hindsight, signing the Anglo-Polish agreement 1939 in which both parties agreed under a secret protocol to that agreement that Britain would not support or aid Poland in the event of any aggression by the USSR. Only the French government was informed of this protocol, it remained undisclosed to both USA and USSR.
southern 75 | 7,096  
6 Sep 2009 /  #128
By your suggestion Germans were incompetent idiots who kept their best troops in an occupied country and sent the second rate troops to the most important theatre?

No,they kept their best troops in easern front.In occupied countries they kept second category troops with the exception of Yugoslavia where they employed selected parachuters devisions.

In the time of Warsaw uprising the front happened to be very close to the center of uprising and this was a decisive factor since Germans could move easily troops from the front to Warsaw.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
6 Sep 2009 /  #129
they've been preparing for a full scale offensive

In 1918? You must be joking. Germany hardly had the resources, morale or will to launch a large scale offensive after the Michael offensive of March 1918. And as per August 1918 they had a little bigger fish to fry than some Polish insurgents. Maybe the Poznan uprising was part of the bigger context of chaos in the whole of Germany which started to enfold by then. I wanna see some links that prove the claim that the German army was preparing a full scale offensive against the insurgents at Poznan. Or are you just over-estimating the role of Poles in history? Wouldn't surprise me, though :)

No,they kept their best troops in easern front.

?? Why would they want to do that? Russia didn't fight anymore and they could use all the best forces they had in the West as the Americans were about to enter on the Western Front. Why you'd think the Germans were so eager to create chaos and revolution in Russia to have them drawn out of the war? Surely not to leave their best men there once the peace was signed. And as for the occupied countries: basically there were only two sovereign states at the time that were occupied, of which only one as a whole: Belgium and Luxemburg. And they both lay conveniently close to the Western Front to act as a resting place for tired or wounded soldiers.

Ehm, I think southern confuses WW2 with WW1, as that is the one were are talking about now, are we?

M-G (coffee)
southern 75 | 7,096  
6 Sep 2009 /  #130
confuses WW2 with WW1

For WW1?There were some german mistakes but for sure Russia saved the french asses when russian troops attacked eastern Pommern in 1914 without having completed mobilization and without complete preparation because the French begged them having pissed their pants after the german attack to the West which would succeed in 1914 if the Germans did not move divisions to eastern front to fight russian invadors.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
6 Sep 2009 /  #131
You mentioned Yugoslavia in your argumentation in a post earlier on. Yugoslavia did not exist until the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes decided they would carry that name, and the SHS did not come into existance until 1923.

M-G (hungry)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Sep 2009 /  #132
In 1918? You must be joking.

In 1919 and You must read up to know anything on the subject before you post.

Germany hardly had the resources, morale or will to launch a large scale offensive after the Michael offensive of March 1918.

Germany had 400.000 troops available to them in 1919 before the Versailles bogged them down, at this time it was a maximum they could equip and set in the line, they were preparing to send all of them to the Greater Poland.

And as per August 1918 they had a little bigger fish to fry than some Polish insurgents.

As of 1919 they lost almost all the land they took from Poland during the partitions which was one of the larger and wealthier provinces along with a major city, the war was effectively over and Poland emerging and taking a huge chunk of what Germans considered as theirs was a pretty burning problem.

Maybe the Poznan uprising was part of the bigger context of chaos in the whole of Germany which started to enfold by then.

Yes it was and its because it was called a Greater Poland uprising, because Poles were attempting to take back the entire province.

To have some idea how much territory Germans were about to lose here you are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wielkopolskie_(EE,E_NN,N).png

. I wanna see some links that prove the claim that the German army was preparing a full scale offensive against the insurgents at Poznan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland_Uprising_(1918%E2%80%931919)

Check out the timeline you can ask any Pole or German interested in history whether the events are accurate.

I can give you some sources in Polish but i have a feeling you'll pull a "Its a Polish version of history" even though there's no alternative one even in Germany.

Or are you just over-estimating the role of Poles in history? Wouldn't surprise me, though :)

You're underastimating it because you're an uneducated troglodite, first of all it was an uprising that took over an entire large province and it was not a "Poznań uprising" secondof all it lasted from 1918 to 1919 and Germans even moved their HQ to Kolobrzeg in preparation for a full blown assault.

The loss of Greater Poland was a much more painfull blow to Germany than the loss of WW1.

In the west they lost a lot of people and temporarily a small region, in the east they lost a major province with one of the largest cities and had the route to East Prussia cut off, not to mention the loss of an much third partition area.

In the West Germany was losing a war, in the East Germany was losing a country.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
6 Sep 2009 /  #133
We're talking about the garrisons of old men and kids running Ukraine and Russia that would have to return piecemeal through Poland which had legionnaries and veterans from both armies by the thousands?

How can old men and kids occupy a country? That's a biased point of view. They were soldiers and definitely capable of fighting a war. So, add a maximum of 1 million troops to the 400000 you've mentioned, and the Polish would have faced almost 1.5 million soldiers. As I said: without the negotiations in February 1919 the Poznan uprising most likely would have failed. IMHO, of course.

Quote from Wikipedia:
"14 February 1919
Beginning of talks about prolongation of ceasefire after WWI. German delegation is against extending it for Great Poland, but France forces them to allow this condition."

Ironside 51 | 11,510  
6 Sep 2009 /  #134
In 1918 in Warsaw there was about 30 000 German soldiers ready to go home as they stopped listening to theirs commanders.
Further east there was lots of soldiers with some elite devisions ready to fight and with high morale.
Socrates
But they way to Germany doesn't necessary lead across Poland.
Secondly political situation in Germany rather excluded possibility of military intervention at this stage.
So,
The Otter
Your theory is nice but untrue ...
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
6 Sep 2009 /  #135
Your theory is nice but untrue

Prove it, Mr. Ironside... :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Sep 2009 /  #136
How can old men and kids occupy a country?

France 1940-43.

That's a biased point of view.

Not as biased as yours.

They were soldiers and definitely capable of fighting a war.

So were 15 year olds in Berlin in 1945 it still doesnt make them a good force.

So, add a maximum of 1 million troops to the 400000 you've mentioned, and the Polish would have faced almost 1.5 million soldiers.

How about you stop being a biased cvnt and go read the wiki, in 1919 Germany had a total of 400.000 troops available to them, grand total.

The army that served during WW1 was resolved and most of them were unwilling or incapable of serving because of battle fatigue, the fact that they were fed up with fighting and that is why there was a communist uprising in Germany which became nearly a civil war.

As I said: without the negotiations in February 1919 the Poznan uprising most likely would have failed. IMHO, of course.

Without negotiations Poland still had nearly a milion troops within months while Germany had 400.000 and an unstable internal situation with communists trying to seize power the worst that could happen was Germany engaging Poland in a full war and losing.

But they way to Germany doesn't necessary lead across Poland.

The shortest way did, the point is moot however since the German army disintegrated within weeks.

Beginning of talks about prolongation of ceasefire after WWI. German delegation is against extending it for Great Poland, but France forces them to allow this condition."

Again read the timeline, Germans were prepared for a full strike long before West brought them to heel, they did not attack the reason is obvious.

Secondly political situation in Germany rather excluded possibility of military intervention at this stage.

Amen, it had nothing to do with Versaiiles and everything with the country being drained and having communist issues.

Further east there was lots of soldiers with some elite devisions ready to fight and with high morale.

I agree that there were some divisions but these guys didnt have high morale, they were some of the strongest supporters of communism.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
6 Sep 2009 /  #137
France 1940-43

???

Without negotiations Poland still had nearly a milion troops within months

Where would all these "troops" all of a sudden come from? One million "battle-hardened" peasants drafted from their fields in 1918/19? How many real soldiers did the Polish uprising actually have? What about the necessary equipment? C'mon, something's wrong here.

I agree with you though, that the November revolution in Germany most likely prevented any further bloodshed in the east.

How about you stop being a biased cvnt

Relax... :)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
6 Sep 2009 /  #138
en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Freikorps_in_the_Baltic&oldid=311431294

Socrates

Prove it, Mr. Ironside... :)

Not today
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
7 Sep 2009 /  #139
???

Go learn instead of posting, Germans occupied France using third rate troops.

Where would all these "troops" all of a sudden come from?

From Prussian, Austrian and Russian armies in which they served, again you have zero historical knowledge and yet you keep talking.

Read about Piłsudski.

How many real soldiers did the Polish uprising actually have?

With or without Blue Army? Probably around a milion.

What about the necessary equipment?

The one confiscated from the occupying forces? Produced or inherited while taking over the arsenal? I mean those 800.000 troops werent exactly armed with sticks.

C'mon, something's wrong here.

Yup, you're forming an opinion without actually knowledge.

I agree with you though, that the November revolution in Germany most likely prevented any further bloodshed in the east.

Actually WW1 prevented Germany from any further bloodshed even without the revolution their armed forces were too weak to do anything in terms of regular warfare.

14.000 Freikorps? What were they supposed to do with the Polish issue? Blitz Warsaw with their mighty army? They'd get covered in hats.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
7 Sep 2009 /  #140
Well, looks as if it is impossible to have a decent conversation with you. Pity. Guess you'll have to stick to your "heroic Poles" version of history and I'll keep mine.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
7 Sep 2009 /  #141
14.000 Freikorps? What were they supposed to do with the Polish issue? Blitz Warsaw with their mighty army? They'd get covered in hats.

point is they weren't supporters of communism
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
7 Sep 2009 /  #142
Well, looks as if it is impossible to have a decent conversation with you.

Not untill you go read a history book, its impossible to discuss with someone who has opinions since there's nothing to discuss with you about.

point is they weren't supporters of communism

Not all Germans supported communism which is why there was this november fuss in the first place.
TheOther 6 | 3,692  
7 Sep 2009 /  #143
its impossible to discuss with someone who has opinions

You're funny. Do you actually read what you're writing?
Harry  
7 Sep 2009 /  #144
" apology from Tony Blair regarding the British Government's failure to invite the Polish armed forces to the 1946 Victory Parade (covered in the FT on 5th September 2003: "UK finally makes amends for Poland's 60 years of hurt"). "

Tony Blair made no apology for the British Government's failure to invite the Polish armed forces to the 1946 Victory Parade. Nobody from the British government made an apology for the British Government's failure to invite the Polish armed forces to the 1946 Victory Parade. You are very simply lying when you claim that he did make an apology. Just as you are lying when you claim that Polish servicemen were not invited to the 1946 Victory Parade. The fact is that representatives of both the official government of Poland and free Polish forces were invited to take part but that neither bothered to attend. This fact is confirmed by both the memoires of General Anders and from contemporary newspaper reports. I really do have no idea why Poles are so attached to the lie about them not being invited.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
7 Sep 2009 /  #145
You're funny. Do you actually read what you're writing?

First you call the Greater Poland uprising the Poznan Uprising, then you mistake dates, then you proceed to issue opinions that go in stark contrast with history.

Either learn and then issue opinions or enter a thread with questions only.
Bzibzioh  
7 Sep 2009 /  #146
I really do have no idea why Poles are so attached to the lie about them not being invited.

And I really do have no idea why you are so attached to the lie about them being invited. As we already discussed that topic to death inviting just but a few pilots out of about 250 thousands Polish soldiers at last moment before the parade couldn't be considered a respectful one thus was rightfully declined. So we have a full claim that we were snubbed. Deal with that.
Harry  
7 Sep 2009 /  #147
And I really do have no idea why you are so attached to the lie about them being invited.

I’m not at all attached to that lie. I can’t be: it doesn’t exist. The simple fact is just as it has always been: Poles were invited to the London Victory Parade and they decided not to attend. The unfortunate fact is that, as you have just shown, Poles feel a need to lie about that invitation.

As we already discussed that topic to death inviting just but a few pilots out of about 250 thousands Polish soldiers at last moment before the parade couldn't be considered a respectful one thus was rightfully declined.

And you never bother to address the fact that not a single US soldier or sailor was invited to attend but that the US did not consider it appropriate to refuse to attend. The only nation which refused to attend were the one which had been given better treatment than any other nation: Poland.

So we have a full claim that we were snubbed. Deal with that.

You have no claim. You were not snubbed. You are a liar.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
7 Sep 2009 /  #148
The Otter
What do you actually saying ?
That if not for UK and France and USA Poland wouldn't become independent state after WWI?

I really do have no idea why Poles are so attached to the lie about them not being invited.

Let's make one thing clear !
In 1946 after UK government recognized soviet puppets in occupied Poland and with discriminatory campaign "Poles Go Home" when most of the Polish soldiers had no place to go back to(and those who come back were treated badly), invaded some of the Polish soldiers and one regiment from Polish Army.

Then they invited soviet puppets from Poland and Soviet Polish Army !
You must be fukking mad if you think that it was invitation - it was worst sort of hypocrisy on the part of British government.

So stop being difficult Harry - you sound as an idiot not smart ass.
Harry  
7 Sep 2009 /  #149
Then they invited soviet puppets from Poland and Soviet Polish Army !
You must be fukking mad if you think that it was invitation - it was worst sort of hypocrisy on the part of British government.

There were two invitations: one was sent to the government of Poland and the other went to Free Polish forces. The Polish government did not reject the invitation but didn't bother to send any representatives. The Free Polish forces (the only Free Forces to be invited) refused to attend because they thought that the Free Polish army and navy should also be invited, despite the fact the US army and US navy were not invited.

No matter how many times you lie about it, the Soviet Polish Army was never invited.

As for your "Poles go home" campaign, yes the British government felt so strongly that all Poles should go home that they opened camps where Poles who didn't want to go home could live at the expense of the British tax payer.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
7 Sep 2009 /  #150
As for your "Poles go home" campaign, yes the British government felt so strongly that all Poles should go home that they opened camps where Poles who didn't want to go home could live at the expense of the British tax payer.

Never the less that campaign happened.

What free forces you referring to ?
The Polish Army with legal Polish government were the only representatives of Poland British Government should be concerned with.

They did invite some of the Polish forces - end of the story.

I see now that you are not Polish yourself Harry - Are you sure your parents are?
You have no understanding or are unable to grasp situation and its nuances.

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