Poland. Sold for nothing.

Thats mainly because we lean on Russia, biofuel, solar and wind and nuclear energy, they're all safer than dependency on Russia, lets assume a completely real scenario that you build Nord Stream and increase imports and then one day Russia breaking every single treaty and contract demands a price 10 times higher, or 20, Europe collapses.

I still think depending on Russia is a suicide on an European scale waiting to happen especially when we have alternatives.

Read some of my posts in this thread Sokrates (I don't want to repeat myself again)...Germany does everything she can to support several projects and of course the development of renewable energy to counter the future challenges...

But during the next years we can't change the facts as they are and one better acts on them!

BB is right here, Germany carries many weaker States. Their donations to key projects are quite sizeable.

How long will you build the Nord Stream? 6 months? a year? two years? No - more than that. Invest in something that will make Germany and Poland not dependant on Russia. Though from what I saw you are defending all the time, it smells fishy whether you are truly German ;)

Erm...how about other pipelines projects like...say...Nabucco you mean?
Or more of this?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

What else do you have in mind?

Maybe the Ukraine can help us with that? What are you doing?


But? Now I'm curious....how would a "true German" react?
Would you prefer I would call the Russians my enemies and defend stupidity?

Yet I didn't find there words of that it had assumed preemptive nuclear strike. Secondly I bet you will be able to find same stuff to nitpick in other nuclear states' doctrines.


Absolutely. You can find there whatever you want (especially in the Wikipedia). But it doesn't mean you don't have to use your own filters.

I studied Russian military doctrine here in Russia in terms of nuclear weapon and I've never heard of preemptive nuclear strikes.

But I should probably say it again:



I will never believe you don't realize that Ukraine and Belorussia is kinda blanket which the West (including Poland first and foremost) and Russia pull on themselves. Yes there're some filthy methods using to reach the goal but they're mutual. Poland doesn't comprehend they're independent or if you want Poland comprehends it in her own way. So does Russia. Russia is doing the same. :) Stop whitewashing Polish politicians practically telling "our mud is cleaner than yours".

As for so-called "gas-issue"... well that's not completely Russian invention or even that is mostly not Russian invention. However I don't deny Russia took its part.


BB, I've just thought that it's quite deceiving to read the phrase "auf dem rot(t)en Platz" if you know English only. :))

Cause he is not Ze German. He is an Ossi (every German from the west will tell you that).
He is a one-man propaganda commando, lol
Read a press if you really want to know what Germans think.


How can you be sure, Sasha?

Yeah...so is the chancellor Mrs. Merkel, read the press if you want to know what they think about her and her policies!!!

Ossi against Wessi choice:
javno.com/en-world/german-poll-gives-merkel-big-edge-over-steinmeier_239757

It's an Ossi-conspiracy...me and Mrs. Merkel against the poor real Poles!!!! Be afraid...be very afraid!

Apropos:


My grandfather marched into Warsaw 1939...doesn't that count at least for a tiny bit "Ze" German in your eyes??? *pouts*
Come oooooooon....

Because Russian military is **** poor, nuclear assets included, they dont have enough nuclear assets to cover everything, just the most important targets none of which are in Poland, even if we had a thousand shields.

This Rafal/Elbprinz is such an embarrassment for the Poles...can we be sure that he is a real one and not just a wind up troll?

Russia is the single greatest threat to civilization and European order, i'd put Islam first but its still developing while Russia is a full blown problem.

Irresponsible extremely chauvinistic internal and international policies, depencency of the goverment on the military, non-existent economy in a nation that relies on its natural resources which will become depleted in our lifetime, entire society bred on propaganda and false history resulting in a nation which is terrifingly backwards.

Poles dont think that Russia is the greatest enemy but we know they're the greatest threat and quite frankly Poland has a much better grasp of Russias policies than Germany.

I've read your posts, i stand by opinion that we should NOT strengthen our ties with Russia rather than heavily invest into alternative sources since Russias collapse or crisis is not a question of "if" but "when" with an answer "soon".

I would definitely put Islam first...


Becoming independent from the fossil resources is priority. But as I showed to you even Germany can only hope to get to 45 % by 2030 and we are a leading country in renewable energy, so most countries even won't be as far.

So we will be dependent on countries like Russia or the gulf countries for many years to come...there is nothing we can do about it soon.

Islamic countries are currently living in a stone age trading goats, whatever the US spouts about axis of evil their armies are weak and societies backwards, they're dynamic and evolving into a weird nazi like religion but it will take decades for them to become an organised threat, Russia on the other hand has all the assets and features of one.


Not as far? Onet.pl reported just yesterday that by investing into bio-fuels Poland is able to reduce imports from Russia by 75%.


Gulf countries are better for a number of reasons, most of which include our ability to occupy them and take their resources if they get uppity like US did to Iraq, when Russia finally falls in on itself we wont be able to intervene on account of their nukes.

Erm...you and what army?

French, German, British, Polish, Spanish etc... You would be amazed to what an energy crisis can push countries, together we ceirtanly have assets to secure ME resources.

I wouldn't underestimate countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE or Syria...

I would, they kept losing to Israel for a reason, Israels army is far from elite or invincible.

I wouldn't underestimate UAE, they have lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ from all that oil, they can buy their way in and that's worse than having an army.

Well, I don't know if it a good idea to involve Germans army in any military operations.
I know that they are good in occupying but German army is gutless now (compared to French or British or Turkish army) and it should stay that way.

Well, we could send one Ossi commando maybe (to disarm the minefield ;-]) but that's it ;-]

...I'm not hot on it...but better we pull together our EU-army soon!

True true, they're evil people those Germans. By the way should we boot them from NATO?


While German society as such has ceirtanly lost its edge due to variety of factors German army is the strongest in Europe and needs to be regarded as such.

And so what? What do you see the German Army doing in the near future?

Their army isn't bad but it's not the strongest army in Europe or even in the UE (and I'm not talking about a lack of a nuclear weapon)

You can compare French and British army to Deutsches Heer and you'll prove me right.

BTW: Platforma Obywatelska podjela ostatio bardzo zle decyzje o oszczedniosci na armi w czasie kryzysu. SAdze ze jest to jeden z tych nielicznych sektorow gdzie nie powinno sie oszczedzac.

Another version of "In one week in Berlin"?

Poles shouldn't trust their measurements of foreign powers! And if that would be the only thing the war should have taught you...:):):)

Right, German Army has about 1000 Leopards in 2A4, 2A5 and 2A6 modes which is more first generation tanks than France and UK have together, they have ordered 185 modern heavy self propelled artillery, by comparison we're pondering an order of 48 pieces and France has something like 90.

German army is the most powerfull in Europe in terms of equipment, its training is sometimes lacking but is generally on high standard and while it may no longer be able to repeat the feats of WW2 its still the strongest martial force out there barring nukes.


Which one? We've been on opposite sides in quite a few and thus far you won one:)

Heh...Poles bailed out by a whole alliance after being marched over in only some weeks can hardly count as winning! :)

Not again the battle of Grünwald half a millennia back please...:)


I see it that way:
Equipment isn't everything if it comes to war. France had a better army than Germany in WWII if you only take numbers and stats.

The spirit is most important!
Right now there is no fighting spirit in Germany (including me). We have all what we want, we feel save, are relatively wealthy, most of our wishes get internationally fulfilled...most lead a good, quiet life...energy questions or the current financial crisis notwithstanding.

So we might make still the best weaponry because we somehow have it in our blood, but would prefer someone else would use it. :)

Interesting. why do the gerries need 1000 tanks? :-]
Could you provide a link to that article?

BTW: leopard is a first 3rd generation tank (developed in early 70's in service since 1979).


True

France had a pathetic army, it had good equipment but its soldiers and officers were extremely demoralized.


If it was that easy Poland would crush both Germany and Russia in 1939.


And wont be for generations to come, post WW2 trauma associated with killing more than 30 milion innocents coupled with overblown social system managed to kill off the prussian heritage for good, it took generations in Prussia to build a militant society which peaked in the 30s and 40s of the XX century, its not sparkly magic of being a German, its a process that shapes national potential.


Nice but not true, you make weaponry thats on par with everybody around you, as for your blood its only with the rise of Prussia that Germany became a true powerhouse, thats 180~ years of power in opposition to more than 700 years of struggle so i'd be carefull with that "in our blood" there's a militant thread in Germany but no more than in France or Poland.

BB, you gave me an interesting idea ...
Has Germany won ANY war ever other than Herman der Cherusker victory ?

That is crap...the prussian heritage is very well alive.
Many values the Germans are famous for like hard working, prudence, thrift etc. are prussian values.

A lost war doesn't kill the spirit...or you Poles would have lost it long since.

But most sane people need a good reason to fight...and most Germans just don't see any!