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Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #211
Interesting. why do the gerries need 1000 tanks? :-]

And why do we need 960 tanks?

Could you provide a link to that article?

No i'm lazy, go to pancerni.net or something and ask around, Germany has 500-600~ tanks in active service and upwards of 1000 in total, originally they built over 2000 but they sold many to Sweden, Low Countries, Poland and others.

Heh...Poles bailed out by a whole alliance after being marched over in only some weeks can hardly count as winning! :)

We're talking about Vienna? The same Vienna where in two battles Poles break the back of the entire Turkish army, the same Vienna where the presence of Polish shock troops was the single factor due to which German states survived? As for Grunwald, no we're nottalking about it, we're talking about the following teutonic wars, the thirteen years war, the Gollub War, the Hunger War, the pacification of Prussia and loss of most of its army during the Swedish invasion or the repeated Prussian failures under Warsaw and even in the face of majority of the Polish forces facing Russia.

Finally not military but defnitely militant takeover of the Prussian occupied Polish lands after WW1 when Polish militias overpower German Police and military, Polish military incompetence is a myth and while Germany certainly produced competent soldiers its military power is equally overblown, just the other way around.

BTW: leopard is a first 3rd generation tank (developed in early 70's in service since 1979).

I'm sorry i always get the two mixed up.

That is crap...the prussian heritage is very well alive.
Many values the Germans are famous for like hard working, prudence, thrift etc. are prussian values.

A lost war doesn't kill the spirit...or you Poles would have lost it long since.

Nope, what you describe is are general civilizational and cultural traits aquired and shaped by Germans over the centuries, the militant philosophy of Prussia and by extention of the Reich was what made Prussian spirit and that part died for good, you have said yourself that Germans are content, what you fail to notice is the reasons behind said content.

Initially it was the trauma of having caused such a war, while most Germans were vaguely aware of what the business was about, after the war they had to face it up front and i imagine thats not easy, as a result an extremely benevolent social system and family model was created.

While Germany has a militant streak deep down the "Prussian spirit" was an artificial construct which came and now went.

As for us Poles over the last several centuries we've developed a weird martyrologic romantic culture, defeats make us stronger since we instantly glorify them, on the downside we forget that for the better part of history we were the winners, the point here is that our culture through odd quirks of history is better suited to deal with getting spanked, Germany first responded with Hitler and now with severe identity crisis.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #212
The same Vienna where in two battles Poles break the back of the entire Turkish army,

You like to forget that the Poles alone wouldn't had achieved anything....it's down to the Viennese mainly and the alliance who whithstand the cruel siege for so long.

Or you could say in the same way also that Blücher and the Prussian won Waterloo alone since they came at the right time and were the dead shot what killed Nappi's ambitions in the end...

the pacification of Prussia

:):):)

The same Prussia what owned you for centuries later???

Also your beloved Battle of Grünwald was an alliance of Poles and the same number of Lithuanians...Poles alone against Germans have a dismal record!

(But you are good with alliances I give you that..)

...but I still like you! :)

But the point is your assessment that because Germany lost WWII now lost mysteriously their ability to fire a weapon 65 years later is unsubstantiable.
Germany was in her history in much dire circumstances...even your much beloved Prussia...and it came up to the top again every ******* time!
Much to the detriment of it's adversaries...who like to underestimate it...

While Germany has a militant streak deep down the "Prussian spirit" was an artificial construct which came and now went.

What isn't an artificial construct?
Poland only existed because of some demarcation at a drawing board.....

Nope, what you describe is are general civilizational and cultural traits aquired and shaped by Germans over the centuries, the militant philosophy of Prussia and by extention of the Reich was what made Prussian spirit and that part died for good, you have said yourself that Germans are content, what you fail to notice is the reasons behind said content.

Well...if you say so!
krakowiak  
9 Apr 2009 /  #213
So we might make still the best weaponry because we somehow have it in our blood, but would prefer someone else would use it. :)

Nothing to be proud about in my eyes. "We supply tyrans all over the world", "Made in Germany to kill worldwide" - thats the slogans I would like to hear from German companies visiting the next industrial fairs - no matter which sector.


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #214
Nothing to be proud about in my eyes.

Well...good handiwork is something to be proud of...and we always excelled in arms tech...it's some kind of german tradition...:)
Rafal_1981  
9 Apr 2009 /  #215
And why do we need 960 tanks?

to counterbalance their 1000 I would say, lol

BTW:
France:
Main Battle Tanks 354 Leclercs (as of 2008), 17 AMX-30B2s
Light Tanks 192 ERC-90s, 300 AMX-10RCs

I don't know about Britons (but hey, they are islanders, they don't need that many battle tanks) however they have an excellent Air force.

And of course they cooperating in F 35 development

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_35
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #216
You like to forget that the Poles alone wouldn't had done anything....it's down to the Viennese mainly and the alliance who whithstand the cruel siege for so long.

Why not? They did under Chocim (see battle of Khotyn) with much smaller force against a much larger Turkish army.

Or you could say also that Blücher and the Prussian won Waterloo alone since they came at the right time and were the dead shot what killed Nappi in the end...

Blucher and the Prussian army did hardly any fighting and if alone they could not do anything since his army was moslty fresh recruits and Landwehr, Poland single handedly broke the entire Turkish army in the field, the only thing the alliance had to do was hold vienna.

The same Prussia what owned you for centuries later???

Just the same.

Also your beloved Battle of Grünwald was an alliance of Poles and Lithuanians...Poles alone against Germans have a dismal record!

Most of the later wars were done only by Poles or by Poles and token Lithuanian forces, Poles won all of them, also battle of Koronowo a few weeks after Grunwald where Poles alone massacred a teutonic army twice their size, then you get the Prussian siege of Warsaw where Polish forces humiliate a large Prussian force by holding to not even a fortress but a large city.

Guess its not so dismall at all.

But the point is your assessment that because Germany lost WWII now lost mysteriously their ability to fire a weapon 65 years later is unsubstantiable.

You're mistaking me with Rafal, i've just said that you maintain the most powerful martial force in Europe, i do however claim that the militant streak over which you went to war past 2 times is gone due to social conditioning.

Germany was in her history in much dire circumstances...even your much beloved Prussia...and it came up to the top again every ******* time!

Looking out of my window in Breslau i beg to differ.

Much to the detriment of it's adversaries...who like to underestimate it...

I'm an admirer of Germany (though i hate German language) i just dont overestimate it, Germany has great discipline as a part of their culture and is capable of great rallying in times of need (gee much like Poland, take that Rafał) but by shaping your society around such a heavy socialized system and losing historical identity you've created a creeping enemy that decays from inside, against whom discipline is useless.

What isn't an artificial construct?

A trait developed naturally via human interaction rather than one decided upon arbitraly by individuals and then forcefully conditioned upon the population (Prussian kings fracking with their nations mentality and culture by creating a heavily militant society).
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #217
Guess its not so dismall at all.

The facts speak a dismal language Sokrates...you overestimate the role of the Poles whenever you can and you underestimate the Role of Germans.
You dismiss the number of Lithuanians at Grünberg...you are not objective.
Also are you prone to bring esoteric psychological reasoning into discussions...something you can't proof...
It's hard to discuss things seriously in this world of drama, romanticism and wannabe psychology...

...and losing historical identity you've created a creeping enemy that decays from inside, against whom discipline is useless.

See?

Such crap is useless for a discussion!
Some more rationality would get us much farther...

Heh:)

Sexy Prussia

goethe.de/ges/mol/thm/tde/en3182928.htm

All things Prussia becomes very interesting again for many Germans (including me)...
You could speak of a renaissance!

The prussian Iron Cross as symbol of the Bundewehr:

Prussia Iron Cross

Nearly one Millennia is this cross now in that form or similiar in use...how is that for historic identity?
krakowiak  
9 Apr 2009 /  #218
Well Poland having the naighbours it has, got into armory as well, from having employed the metalurgist who developed the canons the brits used to sink the spanish armada, through in early 20thC. having some superb fighter- and bomberplanes, yet not enough to put it up with german industrial sector, having put the best 9mm sidegun ever on the market, up to now beeing equiped with the best armoured 8x8 vehicles, Rosomak, having put a better armoured and cheaper replacement for the humvee together and having the best tuned T-72s on the world (T72-Twardy) - I don't know weather the Twardys could take it up with current Leo2s - but hey its done with about 10% of the German budget ;)

If you liked the last, you'll enjoy this one


Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #219
The facts speak a dismal language Sokrates...you overestimate the role of the Poles whenever you can and you underestimate the Role of Germans.

Who's facts?:)

You dismiss the number of Lithuanians at Grünberg...you are not objective.

I try, Lithuanians both at Tannenberg and all the way till 15 century were a country catching up with Poland and the West, their armies at the time were sub par.

Also are you prone to bring esoteric psychological reasoning into discussions...

Psychology and sociology are esoteric?

It's hard to discuss things seriously in this world of drama, romanticism and wannabe psychology...

If you say so:)

See?

Such crap is useless for a discussion!

Tell me, what are the patrons of Luftwaffe, what traditions does the Bundeswehr fall back upon:) Check them out they're interesting.

History is a crucial uniting and driving factor, in German history there is a huge gap called WW1 and WW2, its being tought, referred too but its a problem, "The Fall" is a good movie as it shows German attempts to come to grips with history.

There's nothing dramatic, romantic or esoteric about it, Russia being an uncivilized country can and does rewrite history into its own false version, Germany for centuries was a country in which culture, history and tradition played a pivotal role and suddenly you're yanked out of this development path by Prussia, shaped into a militant state which unable to deal with its failure transforms into a more extreme form of itself under Hitler.

Now you're left with a huge gap in your history and culture which most German historian and politicians aprooch on tip toes, the continouity of national identity development has been broken, Germany searches for reference point on which to anchor itself which is not a problem immidietaly influencing everyday life but in the long term it does.

Also Prussia wont cut it for Germans, ultimately you'll hit a point of transformation again into a more militant state but there's a vast number of Germans who are panicked by the very thought and will actively oppose it, also your social support model will weigh you down.

You love Prussia BB and will die screaming defending the idea that its good and might be back, one day maybe but not in our grandkids lives:)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #220
Sokrates....your blind hatred of Prussia makes you the wrong person to judge or explain anything German, sorry!

You should better start learning more about it that you can assess it's place in german history and what Germans think of it.

Just because YOU have on opinion doesn't make it the truth!

May I recommend a fair and obective book?
/Iron-Kingdom-Downfall-Prussia-1600-1947/

In the aftermath of World War II, Prussia--a centuries-old state pivotal to Europe's development--ceased to exist. In their eagerness to erase all traces of the Third Reich from the earth, the Allies believed that Prussia, the very embodiment of German militarism, had to be abolished.

What we find is a kingdom that existed nearly half a millennium ago as a patchwork of territorial fragments, with neither significant resources nor a coherent culture. With its capital in Berlin, Prussia grew from being a small, poor, disregarded medieval state into one of the most vigorous and powerful nations in Europe. Iron Kingdom traces Prussia's involvement in the continent's foundational religious and political conflagrations: from the devastations of the Thirty Years War through centuries of political machinations to the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire, from the enlightenment of Frederick the Great to the destructive conquests of Napoleon, and from the "iron and blood" policies of Bismarck to the creation of the German Empire in 1871, and all that implied for the tumultuous twentieth century.

The same time as you Sokrates state Germany has lost it's identity I say Germany would be the better for if we would bring back Prussia and adhere more to the prussian values.

Who knows what will happen...:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #221
Sokrates....your blind hatred of Prussia makes you the wrong person to judge or explain anything German, sorry!

There's only one country i hate and thats Belarus, and its only because their goverment nicked my car, when i got it back it was without seats and most of electronics.

As for the book i'll buy and read it, i never said Prussia was not impressive, just that it was bound to fail due to artificially enforced ideologies, it did fail, its extension failed as well.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #222
Did you actually read the article??? :)

The number of Prussianists is on the rise...
Poland needed some time too to get his state back, right?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #223
Poland needed some time too to get his state back, right?

Like i said, its likely that some episode of "Prussianism" will happen but dont expect it to last or to be the same in magnitude to the previous ones, the very nature of the system requires military achievement and modern military does not allow for a country with limited resources to go party like we could in the past.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #224
the very nature of the system requires military achievement

Well...and I thought you and Rafal were lamenting exactly that??? The lack of I mean..

Just imagine...Prussians against the Islamists!
krakowiak  
9 Apr 2009 /  #225
I hope they will take it easy, though it's their choice if the huns choose to go into hierarchial self-flagellation again let them go, the "Ossis" were used to it up to 1989, since at least Bismarck
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #226
Well...and I thought you and Rafal were lamenting the exactly that??? The lack of I mean...

There's 8 wars we lost throught history, there's more than 90 we fought, our military achievement is quit a bit larger than yours:)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #227
I hope they will take it easy, though it's their choice if the huns choose to go into hierarchial self-flagellation again let them go, the "Ossis" were used to it up to 1989, since at least Bismarck

Wait...aren't you the guy who loves communism and says Napoleon was a great "humanist"?

But then...you must be used to being wrong and laughed at...poor sod...

There's 8 wars we lost throught history, there's more than 90 we fought, our military achievement is quit a bit larger than yours:

History since when? 90 wars or 90 battles? (Not even the Germans or the Russians could boast 90 wars I think) Some links? :)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #228
History since when? 90 wars or 90 battles? (Not even the Germans or the Russians could boast 90 wars I think) Some links? :)

Wikipedia is your man, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Poland

If we discard minor conflicts and WW1 as well as uprisings (both won and lost) you're still left with over 70 wars, notice how Germany wins only one or two.

Keep a winning streak for 700 years and lose a few wars in 150 something years and you're suddenly butt end of all jokes :)

And to put a final dot over an I, if our record against Germans was so abysmal you'd just roll over us early on and kept settling the East, there's a reason why there's a Polish-German border, a bunch of reasons starting in 972 and lasting to 1156:)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #229
If we discard minor conflicts and WW1 as well as uprisings (both won and lost) you're still left with over 70 wars, notice how Germany wins only one or two.

Tja...who is the militaristic, agressive people here? Not the Germans, nor the Russians...

Turns a totally new light on Polands history and misfortunes...maybe it was a good idea to partition you between your neighbours?

Not the "eternal victim" after all, terrorized by big, bad neighbours??? Interesting...

But this...

972, against Germany, see battle of Cedynia

There was no Germany at that time...are you sure that list is correct???
You really mean Poland won 70 wars against Germany and Germany only 2???
THAT is an interesting view on the history between our peoples...I really wonder why we don't speak all polish already!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #230
Tja...who is the militaristic, agressive people here? Not the Germans, nor the Russians...

Notice that despite Poland despite having such a crazy war machine between 14th and 16th centuries never took over a single German city, thats some of those esoteric wannabe psychologic things at work for you, militaristic, agressive yes, but not overly expansive.

Turns a totally new light on Polands history and misfortunes...maybe it was a good idea to partition you between your neighbours?

Not gonna work mate, i'm much harder to bait than that, the reason you were so eager to partition us was because participating states were ruled by absolute monarchies and Poland came up with an idea of national democracy.

Not the "eternal victim" after all, terrorized by big, bad neighbours???

Different cultures react differently to falling, you've invented Hitler, we've invented the "Poland the Martyr" thing, in reality just to keep the peace in the partitioned lands all three participants kept most of their forces here.

Germany and Poland have the most accomplished military histories in Europe, the difference is how popular culture remembered us and geography, you got a better starting point.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #231
Na ja...I wouldn't call Hitler an "invention"...

Could you please inform Crowie about this list the next time he bubbles again on and on about the poor tortured Slavs and their beastly neighbours, the monstrous Germans?

(Even if it always states "Germany" when it in truth was just some landlord and it not actually states who won)

Thank you:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #232
Could you please inform Crowie about this list the next time he bubbles again on and on about the poor tortured Slavs and their beastly neighbours, the monstrous Germans?

Well we tortured quite a few Slavs, we were famous for impaling Cossacks and captured Tartars.

(Even if it always states "Germany" when it in truth was just some landlord and it not actually states who won)

Oh in one of those we invaded Germany as a whole and it still lost:)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #233
Well we tortured quite a few Slavs, we were famous for impaling Cossacks and captured Tartars.

Mean, mean Poles...:)

Oh in one of those we invaded Germany as a whole and it still lost:)

Oh I know about that but the rest of the list sucks...you have to admit that! :)

I mean...what is that?? Who fought? Who won???

# 1003–1005, against Germany
# 1007–1013, against Germany
# 1015–1018, against Germany

# 1109, against Germany
# 1146, against Germany
# 1156, against Germany

You are not counting that as won wars over Germany, don't you?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #234
Oh I know about that but the rest of the list sucks...you have to admit that! :)

Which ones? The 1920 one wheh 800k Poles beat the living crap out of 1.5+ milion Russians?

Ohh wait the ones where we installed Tsars in Moscow must have sucked, we've been kicked out...after a year.

Vienna was pretty crappy too, and Khotyń, i mean winning against 150k Turks with 30k of your own is pathetic.

Then there's Smoleńsk war in which we spank Russia, again.

The Deluge in which everyone and their brother invades Poland, they won...no wait they did not, i'm just listing the most obvious but yeah you're right, winning against enemies who'd regularly field armies that would make most Western countries crap their pants sucks.

As for 1939, yes the war lasted a month but whats missed is the 700k Russians pouring down our Eastern borders.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #235
No, I meant the other ones....some obscure date where there wasn't even thought of a Germany..

But even following this...where do you get the 70 or 90 from???

On the other hand it puzzles me why you fear the Russians as your enemy so if Poles have such a great military history...neither Germany nor Russia could say the same.

Especially Russia seldom left it's own borders...it all seems very crazy to me I must admit and actually I have a hard time believing it...:)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #236
But even following this...where do you get the 70 or 90 from???

ALL not only against Germany, if we count only huge wars than we're down to about 60, many of these Cossack uprisings were huge wars.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #237
if we count only huge wars than we're down to about 60,

60 huge wars??? And you won them all???

Okay...I'm skimming through this list again...this is what I would call as wars with Germans (even as the Teutonic Order is not Germany):

1409–1411, the Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic War
1431–1435, Polish-Teutonic War (1431–1435)
1519–1521, Polish-Teutonic War (1519–1521)

1618–1648, Thirty Years' War
The Deluge

During the 18th century, European powers (most frequently consisting of Russia, Sweden, Prussia and Saxony) fought several wars for the control of the territories of the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

1806-1807 - Prussian Campaign Napoleon establish Duchy of Warsaw, Polish Army fought on the French side

WWII

?

That's what I found...come on...where are your 60 huge wars...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #238
60 huge wars??? And you won them all???

Jesus no, we've lost 10 or more wars in total, Poland won around 70% of the total wars, the rest ended in stalemate and a few ended in defeat, typically of Poles most of the defeats were brought by political conflicts within rather than superior military might of the enemy.

Just to be exact, we've lost one war to Germany (1939), 2 wars to Russia, 1 to Sweden, 2 to Cossacks, i'm not counting the national uprisings though, i might forgot something since its off the top of my head.

There's also a few wars which ended up in stalemates. The majority of losses are assosiated with partitions, then you get Poles losing the Kościuszko, January and November uprisings but i'm not counting those since apart from January Poland did not have an army or just a remnant of it, in Janurary uprising it gave Russia a run for its money.

Then you get into XX century when Poland wins Silesian uprisings against Germany, wins a war against Ukraine, wins a war against Russia and then its 1939.

That's what I found...come on...where are you 60 huge wars...

You really want to me recount all of them? Also you have to realise that a number of those have been big in their time, an army of 70-100k men was huge in 16 century, the Deluge is actually several wars in rapid succession.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
9 Apr 2009 /  #239
You really want to me recount all of them?

Just point them out to me on this list as you used it to support your argument...I'm really curious.
I personally think this list sucks but when I'm wrong I can admit that..

I mean what is this for a calculation if you call a battle with some landlord in 900sumthing a war with Germany but won wars for Germany only count from 1875 onwards???

Who do you think partitioned you??? Prussia doesn't count as Germany but the Teutonic Order???
No wonder this balance is skewed!

Also you have to realise that a number of those have been big in their time, an army of 70-100k men was huge in 16 century, the Deluge is actually several wars in rapid succession.

But still it's either called "battle" or "war"....
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Apr 2009 /  #240
Just point them out to me on this list as you used it to support your argument...I'm really curious.
I personally think this list sucks but when I'm wrong I can admit that..

Russian, Cossack, Ottoman, all of the Teutonic wars except the Bishop one, entire Deluge which is first a Swedish-Polish-Prussian - Polish war, then a Swedish-Prussian-Cossack-Wallachian-Moldavian-Russian - Polish war(like i said everyone and their brother).

Then you get Tartar invasions which in larger versions were regular wars against large cavalry armies.

I personally think this list sucks but when I'm wrong I can admit that..

Germany in its fractured state would be turned into a nice parking ground by all those armies if not for that sucky list, another reason why you were able to develop relatively peacefully is because this sucky list exists, if we lost guess who'd get to become the frontier next.

Also installing Tsars was awesome, they never forgot us that, everrrr :))))

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