Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored?

Yes, of course. Only eastern european think different...they prefer to call it central europe.

which is geographically correct..:)

[i]thenews.pl 04.08.2009

Former Polish Foreign Minister Adam Rotfeld is a member of NATO's `Wise Men' group which is to outline a blueprint of the alliance's strategic reform. The group is chaired by former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and includes representatives of Germany, Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Greece, Turkey and Latvia.

Poland's permanent representative to NATO in Brussels, Boguslaw Winid told the Polish Press Agency: "We are delighted that, thanks to our efforts and primarily the high recognition of Mr Rotfeld, the new Secretary General appointed him to this group."

Would higher farm subsidies count?

Germans appreciated Polish contribution in the fall of their Wall in 1989. Thank you, German brothers.

Walesa starts the Berlin dominoes falling
09.11.2009 20:42
Former Solidarity leader Lech Walesa tipped the first large foam block in Berlin, Monday evening, unleashing a cascade of giant dominoes to symbolise the fall of the wall, twenty years ago.

The tumbling of thousands of foam slabs - stretching over a kilometre and a half of the old route of the wall, and decorated by German school children, artists and freedom rights activists - was part of the climax of events marking the ending of the separation of east and west Berlin and the fall of communism in central and eastern Europe.

Before, speeches had been given under the Brandenburg Gate by world leaders, including a video address by President Barack Obama.

The first blcok was paintd by German and Polish children to symbolise Poland`s role in toppling communism and the Wall.

PS. Funny that at the same time Walęsa knocked over not only a domino block but also a cameraman who was standing behind. The broadcasting for German TV was broken. :):):):):):):):):)

Germans, I am so sorry, forgive us and Wałęsa. He is Great Destructor, he abolished communism in Poland, because it is such a type of man, he just abolishes everything.

See the film:
wiadomosci24.pl/artykul/padaly_wielkie_slowa_padal_mur_padl_i_kamerzysta_115403--1.html

PS2. Russian politicians are furious that Walęsa got 5 minutes for his speech while the others only 2 minutes. "It seemed that the Soviet Union had had no contribution to the fall. " a Russian politician said.

wiadomosci.onet.pl/2076295,12,rosjanie_protestuja_piec_minut_dla_polaka_w_berlinie_to_za_duzo,item.html

they are so right. how can you tell 50 years of history in 2 minutes only?!

The problem is that modern Russians who accept the heritage of the Soviet Union don`t need to talk longer than 2 minutes about the Wall. After all , it was their Soviet predecessors who created the totalitarian communist system which spread all over Eastern and Central Europe and who supported the Wall for 35 years.

Russia, Belarussia and Ukraine are in East Europe

(I consider Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia to be Balticum, their own place)

Economically it counts as a potentially lucrative market what with almost 40 million people living there. Politically it is seen as an upstart with major hang ups regarding its neighbors and its past, some countries see it as a useful tool (loyal puppy) as a hedge against the political ambitions of others.

Poland is a good example of a country that needs a strong military for future contingencies, just in case (for only a true fool disregards the lessons of history). Some countries recognize this, some don't.

The whole Is it Eastern Europe or Central debate is silly because it depends on your own perspective and it is funny to see Poles so shocked at being lumped together with Eastern Europeans. True, you don't see the squat toilets that you commonly see farther east, but rural Poland is babushka-wearing bumpkin territory that evokes images of eastern domains. Unsurprisingly, Belarussians and Ukrainians see Poland as "the west." Germans think Poland is essentially "eastern" just as I have heard a Swedish girl once say that she does not want to go to Poland because she does not want to ride around in "stinky Polish east European buses." (direct quote)

Debate this all you want, I'm just repeating what I hear here and there.

Well...of course....everything east of us is eastern for us!

Geographically Europe ends at the Ural mountains. Therefore Poland is Central Europe, regardless of the speaker's perspective.

Who cares if Poland doesn't count in the EU...at least it is not a victim of the EU's evil islamization policies.

And what might those be?

A figment of the Penguin's tortured imagination...;@)

that is absolute location you are referring to, in terms of relative location it is an eastern country therefore the speaker's perspective has everything to do with it. obviously.

jonni
Massive immigration from muslim countries...supression of freedom of speech. Sharia courts, ISlam lessons at schools, punishment of anti-Islamic speech AND construction of new mosques.

Where? By whom?


And Hinduism lessons, Christianity lessons. Judaism lessons too.
But not here in Poland.


Where? By whom?


Any and all religious communities are free to build their places of worship. With their own money.

Though here in Poland our tax zlotys are being spent on a giant Christian church, paid for by all, even non-Christians.

But this is off-topic. The question is whether or not Poland counts in Europe. It does. Under EU voting rules, Poland has a very large say. Poland's image is compromised right now, due to bad behaviour by the old PiS government and Pres. Kaczyński, but that is slowly changing.

jonni

Stupid liberal.

The EU only cares about money and power...not about European culture and heritage. WHat a shame.

You can tell a lot about somebody when they start making insults.


Culture and heritage tends to take care of itself. It can't be manipulated no matter how much money in EU subsidies are thrown at it. Though a lot of EU money is spent on culture and heritage.

'Power and money' is what the EU is largely for. It started as a trade bloc.

I agree, jonni. Culture rests with the people and their passion, NOT with some punkass so-called Dept of Culture. They just fritter away cash to the chagrin of many.

AT least Poland is not Albania. What a mistake in European territory...

No, it will never be an important part of Europe. It is too late in European history for that. Now, with Asia and especially China is going to be the new force to be watched, Poland will fall even further behind. Hd Poland been free since the end of World War 2 in 1945, it might have had a chance

That is what some uneducated Poles believe and that is why things happen the way they do in Poland. This is their view and that explains why when they come to America they think they should get everything free, that Americans should pay for them, that USA should abolish their visa. They don't return when their visa expires and look for illegal ways such as marriage to a US citizen to stay legally instead of returning back to Poland and make something out of their own country. The intelligent Poles stay in Poland while the less intelligent ones come to America, stay illegally and forget how to properly speak Polish anymore. To them "karpety", "kary", "nepki", "insiury" becomes a language. The intelligent Poles don't mix English with Polish. Those Poles believe in their country and should be respected because they know Poland is a beautiful, full of history country and don't care what others think of them.

There are exceptions, of course. I know a few intelligent guys who went to US to make a buck or two. Including me. :):):):):):)

Another case of appreciation.

Some German politicians are very considerate of Poland and are visibly trying to keep up good relations.
spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,662900,00.html

[...] A controversy has been raging for the past year over appointments to the board of directors of the Flight, Expulsion and Reconciliation Foundation. The foundation's planned documentation center in Berlin is intended to memorialize the ordeals of people who have suffered expulsion and to further advance reconciliation with Poland, but the government in Warsaw is opposed to Steinbach's inclusion in the board of directors.

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle has announced his veto of Steinbach's candidacy. This is crucial because anyone hoping to be appointed to the foundation board must have the support of the entire administration.

Merkel has been trying for some time to convince Steinbach to abandon her claim to board membership, but Steinbach has stood firm. In doing so, she has not only provoked a crisis in the new coalition government of Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU), the CDU's Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union (CSU), and the business-friendly Free Democratic Party (FDP), but has also highlighted the deficits of Merkel's governing style, which is often based on adopting a "wait and see" approach when faced with difficult decisions. [...]

pawian

Isn't Steinbach just a scapegoat/ instrument for the Polish government to avoid/ suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Having this chapter of history covered in debth in the documentation centre might not be in the interest of the Polish government, I would assume.

Of course she is!
If it wouldn't be Mrs. Steinbach it would be someone else.
Now Poland had grudgingly and mopingly to accept that the center is being build but that still doesn't stop them from heaping abuse to the woman they perceive as the main "guilty" for it.

Poles are not afraid of revealing the story of German expellees. Much has been done so far, we have already talked about it here in this forum. Nobody serious in Poland denies the fact that German civilians suffered a tragic fate.

But Steinbach is unacceptable to Polish government and most Poles. How Poles see Steinbach:

asta.asfh-berlin.de/uploads/pics/steinbach_wprost.jpg

img.wiadomosci24.pl/g2/13/43/77/4328_1155978605_7cd2_p.jpeg

Is this image justified?

Yes, to some extent. 30% leaders of German Expellee Organizatian belonged to Nazi party during WW2. E.g., a vice president of the Organization was a judge in occupied Poland, and he sentenced Poles to death for minor transgressions.

Stenibach claims that the Center she wants to lead is going to cover all expulsions during WW2. However, the website she created gives false information about the expulsions of Poles from Polish land occupied by Germans - 400.000 instead of 2 million.

Her expellee past is also very controvercial - her family settled in Kashuby region after German had conquered Poland in 1939, she was born in occupied Rumia near Gdańsk in 1943. And they had to leave it in 1945, so she believes she has the right to usurp the title of expellee for herself. Isn`t it funny? :):):):)

In short - Polish politicians consider Stenibach a liar and impostor.


Besides, haven`t we already said here that most of ethnic cleansing was done by German Nazi administration when it gave orders to German civilians to leave their houses before the Red Army`s invasion?

Well, alone that image puts you into the "not to be taken seriously"-corner!

Mrs Steinbach is not only a person of integrity but in the same party and a friend of our chancellor, Mrs. Merkel...
Next time you have a disagreement with her will you put a Nazi-uniform to her too?


Well...most grown up Germans were in some way or the others...not only the refugees.
But she wasn't even in the Hitler youth like some others...as the catholic pope for example.
Do you have problems with the pope too?
How is it for catholic Poles now having to follow a NAZI GERMAN! Where are all the funny pics
of the pope in uniform???


She was chosen by the expellees to speak for them, that's all what has to interest you!
You are NOT chosing for us!
She had to leave her home as a 2 year old...Babies were forcible thrown out too. Many of the victims were innocent children.


I would rather say....a someone who keeps putting the finger in an still open, hurting wound and just won't stop because she knows that a healing can only begin if the wound is seen, talked about, accepted and treated!

Some Poles would rather prefer to hide eyes and ears and throwing tantrums. There is all the hate and venom coming from!

Poles will refer you to the red army and case closed.

Not that I think a greek opinion is needed or wanted in this topic I'm nonetheless glad it's not the Poles deciding this issue...

But I can see that Mrs. Steinbach will refrain from her promised place in the Center to not to hold up the project. She is that kind of a woman, that's why she is respected and well liked...