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Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored?


Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #391
:-)
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #392
Why would you want your country to be filthy rich? Is there a limit for this European greed and striving after a very very high status?

Focus on other things rather...
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #393
Why would you want your country to be filthy rich?

Well, as my grandfather (Lord bless his soul) used to say: it's better to be
rich and healthy than poor and ill :)

Is there a limit for this European greed and striving after a very very high status?

Erm... well... lemme think... hmm... NO ;)

Focus on other things rather...

You see, Butch - there are many things in life worth focusing on, but in the real,
adult world, most of these things require money.
Besides, it's waaay easier to focus on whatever you want to focus on, when you
don't have to worry about money.
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #394
Some people manage to be happy without having loads of money. My comment questioned the motivation of the West to be "filthy rich", while not knowing the limit. You can't read, can you?

I never said the west should be poor, I just don't understand why can't it try to reach a good level (it has already...) and keep it instead of pushing the limits and wanting to be richer and richer and more powerful and more powerful while not noticing its decadence.

I am sure I can pick any farmer from any village and prove that he is happier than any Western business man who, while "filthy rich" ,is constantly stressed, unhappy, under pressure and so on. Refute this argument if you can, please.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
25 Dec 2009 /  #395
Now your position on the matter is clear to me (it wasn`t so before) and I can say it is fair and I seem to be convinced by your logic.

Yes, Torq, I am joining Pawian here as well. Thanks for clearing the issue.
I don't doubt Polish ability to prosper alone in the world market and your GDP is just huge, but if you take into consideration the laws and trade facilitations, Poland enjoys in the EU so much greater consumer base, which gives a great boost to your exports and investments. Subsidies of 3.1 billion euro shouldn't be taken as easily and for granted.

Have a great Christmas :)
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #396
You can't read, can you?

LOL

You're an arsehole, aren't you?

As a matter of a fact, I can read (in four languages if necessary :)).

instead of pushing the limits and wanting to be richer and richer and more powerful and more powerful

Progress, insolent teenager, is the engine of humanity. If you don't develop, don't become
richer and more powerful, then and only then you fall into decadence and your fall is only
a matter of time. As long as your power and wealth grow, you're safe.

I am sure I can pick any farmer from any village and prove that he is happier than any Western business man who, while "filthy rich" ,is constantly stressed, unhappy, under pressure and so on.

Any farmer from any village is happier than any rich businesman?

I'd like to see how you can prove that :)

Refute this argument if you can, please.

WOW! You said "please". I'm impressed. Maybe your Mum and Dad did
teach you some manners after all :)

There's nothing to refute, kiddo. What you said is not an "argument", it's just idiocy :)

Thanks for clearing the issue.

Always glad to help, Nat.

if you take into consideration the laws and trade facilitations, Poland enjoys in the EU so much greater consumer base, which gives a great boost to your exports and investments. Subsidies of 3.1 billion euro shouldn't be taken as easily and for granted.

True.

Have a great Christmas :)

You too, brate :)
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #397
LOL

You're an arsehole, aren't you?
As a matter of a fact, I can read (in four languages if necessary :)).

No, I am not an arsehole .In fact, this reply makes you come off as a retard :)

Progress, insolent teenager, is the engine of humanity. If you don't develop, don't become
richer and more powerful, then and only then you fall into decadence and your fall is only
a matter of time. As long as your power and wealth grow, you're safe.

What kind of progress are we talking about? Economical? Industrial? Scientific? Spiritual? Wouldn't it be better if humanity cared about its spiritual level instead of striving for richness and status? It's these ideas what pushes people into making "easy money". The rat race hasn't done humanity any good. See contamination and destruction of nature. Is that the progress you're talking about? Boy you have no brain if you think so.

WOW! You said "please". I'm impressed. Maybe your Mum and Dad did
teach you some manners after all :)

There's nothing to refute, kiddo. What you said is not an "argument", it's just idiocy :)
[/quote]

I am sorry, but you sound more like a "kiddo" when you insult people instead of presenting arguments. Is it "idiocy" just because you don't agree with me?

It's people like you what cause misanthropy. Useless humans like you, Torq :)
OP pawian 168 | 11,175  
25 Dec 2009 /  #398
Poland needs to reach the same level of development as Western Europe. Only then will young Poles stay in Poland to make their living here, instead of going West and too often settling there.

Otherwise, we will have to accept the situation that the space left by young Poles leavers will be filled by immigrants from Asia. I have nothing against, Polish culture is rich enough to accomodate all, but it would be nicer if the country was populated by original Poles, not wanna-be-Polish immigrants.
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #399
I don't know, but I am almost sure that most of those immigrants won't want to be Polish at heart. They might work and be good people and integrate to a certain degree, but the first people to hinder their integration in the society will be Poles themselves. I mean, picture some Indian ,brown guy coming at a bunch of white Poles and saying "hello, Polish brothers...yes, I am Polish"...What would they do?
OP pawian 168 | 11,175  
25 Dec 2009 /  #400
Of course, you are right. Hardly does the melting pot work for the first generation of immigrants. It is a known fact, observed in US and other countries with mass immigration.

But it certainly works for immigrants` kids. Providing they start their Polish adventure as toddlers, as adults they will speak and think in Polish. :):):):)

As for hindering any integration, I can tell you it is not so obvious. Some people hinder, but other try to make it easier. E.g. in my son`s kindergarten there was a Vietnamese girl and I heard a few stories.
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #401
Providing they start their Polish adventure as toddlers, as adults they will speak and think in Polish.

Is it like that in Poland? I mean, if a Vietnamese's son speaks Polish well and the whole thing, would he be considered "Polish"?

Dude, the way things are going, Europe is going to look really funny in a couple of decades!
OP pawian 168 | 11,175  
25 Dec 2009 /  #402
Is it like that in Poland? I mean, if a Vietnamese's son speaks Polish well and the whole thing, would he be considered "Polish"?

I can see such yellow or black kids playing with their peers in Polish streets. I saw an Asian teenager playing football with hoods and being visibly befriended with them. To the best of my knowledge, they are considered Polish. After all, they speak perfect Polish and that is the most important factor in recognizing one`s nationality, isn`t it?

I think Polish proverbial hospitality helps them accept Polishness as something natural.
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #403
After all, they speak perfect Polish and that is the most important factor of recognizing one`s nationality, isn`t it?

Well, they have to speak the Language well and most of all, love their nation, and with nation I mean POland, not some creepy Asian country.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
25 Dec 2009 /  #404
Why do you have to degrade another country? Do you think that your country is less creepier than others'? And do you yourself speak Polish well or love your nation to die for not on the words, but in real life?
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #405
Call it degrading or whatever you like, but I can't comprehend when the sons of immigrants show more patriotism/nationalism/pride/love to the motherland of their parents (which gave those kids NOTHING) than to their true nation, which is the country they were born in. That's the case in Germany with the third generation of Turks born here. They are worse integrated than their parents. Isn't that strange?

Oh, I don't speak Polish. At all.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
25 Dec 2009 /  #406
It is, I agree. I am surprised you would love country you were born in less than country of your parents. But is it true to all or you just generalize?

Sorry about the language. I thought you were Polish and mentioned it as your native. Anyway, majority of people doesn't speak properly their mother's tongue.
BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #407
But is it true to all or you just generalize?

Of course I was generalizing when I don't say that "most of them"...I should have said it this way:

"most of the son of Turkish immigrants"....because not all are like that, but 90% are.

Anyway, majority of people doesn't speak properly their mother's tongue.

A sad fact. I thought it was limited to Latinos, who are stupid enough to speak one of the easiest languages in the world wrong.
southern 75 | 7,096  
25 Dec 2009 /  #408
The same quantity of foreign goods, you mean, because iniside Poland
the inflation and prices increase are not that high.

Of course I am talking about foreign goods.when zloty falls,so falls your ability to buy them.And do you have proof that prices of domestic goods remained the same after zloty relatively fell?

And did fall of zloty boost your exports?
What I really see is Poles having nowhere to go due to the crisis with whatever that leads.
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #409
And do you have proof that prices of domestic goods remained the same after zloty relatively fell?

They didn't remain the same. They rose according to inflation, for example,
but the rise of prices certainly wasn't as high as 25%.

And did fall of zloty boost your exports?

I don't have exact data, but our exporting companies claim that
it helped them a lot, and they should know best.

What I really see is Poles having nowhere to go due to the crisis with whatever that leads.

It's not that bad really. Actually, all of my friends who were working abroad
either already moved back to Poland or are moving back in the coming months.
True - they all have excellent education and property in Poland, so they're not
your typical emmigrants, but still it's not that bad as some Poles would tell you
(moaning and complaining is our national sport ;)).
southern 75 | 7,096  
25 Dec 2009 /  #410
I wouldn't care if the crisis did not have direct consequences for me.(polkas asking for pomuc,but then what would happen if there was no crisis?).
borek  
26 Dec 2009 /  #411
Poles have an inferiority complex connected with their presence and position in Europe. For centuries we have been the worse part of Europe, looked down on by other Europeans from more developed and better organized countries.

Poles have been the worst part of Europe for centuries? Please support this ridiculous claim. We are one of the few European nations not plagued with bloody civil war and ruthless religious quibbling. I think we were doing fine until the Germans and Russians crossed us when they became imperial aggressors. From that period on we became vagrants with no land to call our own, acting as mercenaries for different European powers. But no matter how hard they tried to either assimilate or exterminate us, and despite the countless betrayals, here we are speaking Polish and observing our culture.

Any inferiority complex stems from our past and the fact that we never got a chance to leave a proper mark on history. This is only exaggerated when you consider the modern communist ridden state that is Poland today. Fortunately, now that we are running our own country again, things are looking

My opinion: Poland was ignored, Westerners had a tendency to deal with Poland like with a spoiled child - ignoring its demands or independent thinking and expecting it will remain silent and happily accept what is offered to it.

Of course Poland is ignored. Our economy is not strong enough for us to have any real influence. You don't think Mexico is calling the shots in North America do you?

Reading posts in the forum I constantly come across contradicting voices of members. Some claim Poland is ignored by Europe, others maintain it is already or going to be an important player soon.

Well, the state of Poland will definitely improve. This isn't wishful thinking like it is with India or Brazil, Poles actually have the mental capacity to run an advanced nation. This success will come in spite of the EU, which honestly has done little for Poland but draw our workers from here to Britain. This sort of "economic growth" is not sustainable and only temporarily fills the pockets of these grasshopper Poles.

As for becoming an important player? Its all relative. If our western European cousins continue to import third world trash, then yes, their power will dwindle and either Eastern Europe or the Chinese will be there to pick up the scraps. You seriously cannot expect arab half breeds to be equivalent to the great Germanics.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
26 Dec 2009 /  #412
After all, they speak perfect Polish and that is the most important factor in recognizing one`s nationality, isn`t it?

Oh yes. I speak English, I must be from the UK.

When you think about it, language doesn't have much to do with one's nationality at all. In America, we are not English, yet, the majority speaks English. In Canada, not everyone's English or French, yet those are the languages they speak. Same goes for Australia. Your nationality is one thing, your language is something else.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
26 Dec 2009 /  #413
It is different for Europe. I wouldn't immediatey put "=" sign, but it is a driving force that keeps nations alive in rough times. The countries you mentioned had majority of English immigrant settlers to start with and were for awhile Britain's colonies. Nevertheless, even now you will hear: "Oh, she is Aussi" just from the way a person speaks. So language no matter where may play a pretty sound role in defining one's nationality. I'll mention my country as an example since I know a bit more about Ukrainian than other languages. On many occasions it was forbidden to print, or import Ukrainian books, even text to musical notes (songs or theatrical stages):

on July 18, 1863. Valuyev's circular implemented a policy based on his opinion that "the Ukrainian language never existed, does not exist, and shall never exist".

(Quite an opinion!!! ;)

The Ems Ukaz, or Ems Ukase (Russian: Эмский указ, Emskiy ukaz; Ukrainian: Емський указ, Ems’kyy ukaz), was a secret decree (ukaz) of Tsar Alexander II of Russia issued in 1876, banning the use of the Ukrainian language (the so-called Little Russian dialect) in print, with the exception of reprinting of old documents. The ukaz also forbade the import of Ukrainian publications and the staging of plays or lectures in Ukrainian. It was named after the city of Bad Ems, Germany, where it was promulgated.

(sick f*ck was bathing in a German resort thinking of destroying a culture)
It is just a single example. Why do you think the language was attacked? Because it unites people into a nation. It has far greater effects than any other factor.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
26 Dec 2009 /  #414
Oh, she is Aussi" just from the way a person speaks.

I can't tell the difference between the Aussie accent and the British one nor the Canadian and American. Same goes for Latin American countries. All speak Spanish, one speaks Portugese, yet they are not actually from Spain or Portugal.

It depends on where you are in the world.
OP pawian 168 | 11,175  
26 Dec 2009 /  #415
Wrong example and comparison. Polish isn`t English and English isn`t Polish.

It is very easy to master the English language without getting soaked with English/American/Canadian etc culture. These cultures are open and universal as they have been created by motley crew of immigrants, and as such they are easy to enter or leave without much ado.

It is not the case with the Polish language which is difficult to master and if someone manages to do it, (mind my word perfectly, I am certain you omitted it) he/she can`t avoid being "trapped" by the Polish culture which is unbreakably connected with the language.

Do you mean what I know?

(sick f*ck was bathing in a German resort thinking of destroying a culture)
It is just a single example. Why do you think the language was attacked? Because it unites people into a nation. It has far greater effects than any other factor.

Yes, exactly the same happened in Poland occupied by partition powers, more exactly by Russians and Germans. At some point of history the Polish language was forbidden by occupant authorities, in vain hope that after a few dozen years the Polish nation would vanish from the area.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
26 Dec 2009 /  #416
(mind my word perfectly, I am certain you omitted it)

I doubt all Polish people born and raised in Poland speak it perfectly. There's always people who have bad grammar and mispronounce words in every country ;)

You are right about language being a nationality factor in Europe and Asia, but not so much elsewhere.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
26 Dec 2009 /  #417
Im going to get jumped on for this remark, but I can no longer leave this thread alone

Of course Poland is recognised as being part of Europe, at present they are more like the poor relative, but of course that will change.

Progress, insolent teenager, is the engine of humanity. If you don't develop, don't become
richer and more powerful, then and only then you fall into decadence and your fall is only
a matter of time. As long as your power and wealth grow, you're safe.

We only have to look at history to know that this is true, the wealthy countries who strived, progressed, whilst those who did not fell by the wayside.

But progression also brings with a whole host of problems, usually social problems and erosion of core values because "all things shiney" become more important - always a price to pay.

Ive only ever visited Poland as tourist but didnt see any difference in its cities to any in France or Spain or any other european city I have visited (apart from miserable terrible service)...I also hear about how people who live in Poland complain about the public sector..well..after taking 2 hours to get through to the council tax department, I cant really see a difference in our countries...ALL public sector departments are CRAP!

It is, I agree. I am surprised you would love country you were born in less than country of your parents. But is it true to all or you just generalize?

Oh no its not, look at who committed the London bombings, its wasnt 1st generation pakistanis, it was 2nd or 3rd, its hard to tell because they "import" one of the parents from the homeland (yes they do call it that, Ive heard it said)...There is always an influence from "back home" because they dont like to marry someone too westernised...its the same with the Turks in Germany.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
26 Dec 2009 /  #418
So, as far as I see it, they see themselves foreign even when they were born in a country foreign to their parents. The same happened in France with those two guy who got burnt running from police and the riots which ensued. It is a very difficult issue. There is a huge psychological gap based on traditions, religion, culture, language etc. When I migrate to a foreign country, I feel obligated to respect and cherish that country since that country accepted me in. I am grateful and I won't do anything to hurt its citizens. But when I am born in that country - that's it - it is MY country forever. I think in-taking countries should make programs starting from the kindergarten where the immigrants' children are started to be integrated into the society, so that they feel from the very beginning that they are part of the process and essential part of the society. Parents at home won't be as powerful later to change that perception.

I can't tell the difference between the Aussie accent and the British one nor the Canadian and American.

Because you were born in Poland, right? You learnt English as a second language, correct? I just make assumptions here (hope they are correct). But this is what English is for me. To learn a language is a challange; to be able to catch and reproduce that language's nuances is still more challenging. Don't say that you cannot make a distiction between American and British accent - it is too obvious. Aussis also have an easily recogniable way of speaking, not to be mixed with others. Once I watched a movie with a couple of young people and she said:"Oh, that guy is, probably, Welsh, the way he speaks". For me he sounded as American as it is possible. And this is because we were never exposed to these different cultures before. Btw, I had a bit difficulty (very minor) at the beginning to switch from British English (taught in schools in Ukraine) to American English, which is used in the US. I think with time and as you hear them more, you will be able to distinguish these accents.

Yes, exactly the same happened in Poland occupied by partition powers, more exactly by Russians and Germans. At some point of history the Polish language was forbidden by occupant authorities, in vain hope that after a few dozen years the Polish nation would vanish from the area.

Yes, language is a huge power, which keeps people and their culture together.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
26 Dec 2009 /  #419
PlasticPole

You can't?
The american and the english dialect are quite easily to distinguish...at least for me....
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
27 Dec 2009 /  #420
Wouldn't it be better if humanity cared about its spiritual level instead of striving for richness and status?

What kind of Jew are you ??

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