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Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored?


BrutalButcher - | 391  
25 Dec 2009 /  #361
Bratwurst Boy

Bring it on. No one can destroy Israel.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #362
No one can destroy Israel.

Lemme guess...how many nukes are needed? 2? 3? Not more, you are tiny and you have not many big towns...sure, you will retaliate but a huge country like...say...Iran will survive anything you can throw at them, but there won't be many Israelis left standing...
scrappleton - | 830  
25 Dec 2009 /  #363
Imagine...no daily news filled with more crap from the ME...;)

Yes.. that would be a nice for a change.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
25 Dec 2009 /  #364
I don't need the Palis to develop an aversion against Israel...

Yes, I noticed this before.

Bring it on. No one can destroy Israel.

You overestimate Israel's political influence.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
25 Dec 2009 /  #365
Well, what is GDP?

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

From this formula it looks like you have consumed some part of 570 billion euro, spent some chunk of it for supporting your government and whatever was left you put to the future good of your country as well (not counting exports, of which EU is, probably, the main consumer). EU has never seen and would never see majority of these products of yours. You devoured them yourselves. So no point of counting them as a Christmas present for EU from Poland.

Also when you make per capita calculations, I think it is unfair to put children, retired and ill people into the equation. They don't produce anything for EU, so why do you count them in 25 cents calculations? I know they want to eat too, but so Portuguese, Greeks and Danish. You have to take into consideration 2 more factors: unemployment and labor force. For Poland as of 2007 they were 10.5% and 16.86 million respectively. The calculation than gives you 66.6 cents (just putting my 5 cents into conversation :)

But the whole thing to make some per capita calculations is pointless, because the money invested in multitude of projects will give future jobs for so many people, who will be able to work and bring bread home.

When we add to that the money that Poland has to pay to the common EU budget (about 2.4 billion euro)

Even if we take this year's figures (5.5 billion subsidies) - it won't even be 1% of Polish GDP.

According to my knowledge of math, you have got 3.1 billion euro!!! for Christmas present.
And you are not satisfied? What else do you want? Per capita spoon-feeding?

Maybe you earn your money by bending over, Nathan. I earn my living mostly
by thinking :)

From your skills in basic calculations you better start thinking :) about changing your job to a more flexible one :)
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #366
Why blame Eu for 15% tax regulation? Blame the Polish government which imposes tax as high as 22% on most products and services.

I don't blame anybody, Pawian. Merely stating a fact that EU does, in fact,
regulate some taxes (and many other things connected with economy).

The stakes of taxes in Poland is a completely different matter.

Do you also mean full freedom of selling Polish goods in Europe markets?

Is Europan market closed for Norwegian or Swiss products? Or is it closed
for American or Chinese goods? Are these countries in EU?

Being outside EU doesn't mean that trading with the union is THAT less profitable.

From this formula it looks like you have consumed some part of 570
billion euro (...) So no point of counting them as a Christmas present for EU from
Poland.

What??? Polish GDP as a Christmas present for EU? LOL - you're really
confused, Nathan. No wonder Ukraine has financial problems if its population
presents economical knowledge similar to yours.

Also when you make per capita calculations, I think it is unfair to put children, retired and ill people into the equation.

Why is it unfair? Quite the contrary - those people require the most assistance
from the state. The state has to support them financially, plus they also use
money from EU subsidies - take part in educational programs, drive on roads
built or renovated with EU money etc. etc. They should, by all means, be included
in the calculation.

According to my knowledge of math, you have got 3.1 billion euro!!! for Christmas present.

Which is roughly 0.53% of this year's Polish GDP of about 580 billion euro
(slight increase to last year's GDP).

And you are not satisfied? What else do you want?

I am very satisfied and grateful to our EU friends as I stated very clearly
in my first post :) However, as I said before - I don't agree with people
who exaggerate EU's help for Poland and make it look like we're being
supported by old EU countries. That's not true. We could do without this
money - no worries.

he money invested in multitude of projects will give future jobs for so many people, who will be able to work and bring bread home

Actually, flooding a country with money doesn't neccessarily mean "future jobs
for many people". Ask Germans from the west how much money they pumped
into DDR and the results they got :)

From your skills in basic calculations you better start thinking :) about changing your job to a more flexible one :)

I'm quite happy with my job and my income, thank you. My family seems satisfied
with my calculating ability too, so I see no reason to change anything :)

SO, TO SUM THINGS UP:

1. I am grateful for the 3 billion euro we got from EU. Every little helps.

2. The well being of Poland, Polish people and their families is being taken
care of, not by EU, but by Polish people themselves.

3. Again - we are very satisfied with the 3 billion euro we got from EU this year.
They are a very nice addition to the 577 billion euro we made ourselves :):):)
Crow 138 | 8,084  
25 Dec 2009 /  #367
only after Sarmats unite, Poland would be respected
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #368
Hey - we are respected! Haven't you read this thread, Crow?

The Germans are so afraid of us, they pay us 3 billion euro a year
just to keep our army in their barracks ;););)

Otherwise, it's "in one week in Berlin" LOL

*wife's waking up - time for Christmas breakfast :)*
Crow 138 | 8,084  
25 Dec 2009 /  #369
*wife's waking up - time for Christmas breakfast :)*

all the best my friend to you and to your family, for the Christmas :)

Regards from first line
from Serbia
southern 75 | 7,096  
25 Dec 2009 /  #370
Let's imagine what will happen if EU stops subsidizing Poland stops.Let's say zloty will lose 20 percent of its value?Or 40 percent?So each Pole will be 20 percent poorer or maybe 40 percent poorer and think Russia again?Or sth else?

This is how it works.
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #371
all the best my friend to you and to your family, for the Christmas :)

Cheers, Crow. Best wishes to you and your family too.

Let's imagine what will happen if EU stops subsidizing Poland stops.Let's say zloty will lose 20 percent of its value?Or 40 percent?

Would you care to explain how decreasing our GDP by roughly 0.5% will
cause the lost of 20-40% value of our currency? :)

So each Pole will be 20 percent poorer or maybe 40 percent
poorer and think Russia again?Or sth else? This is how it works.

When I moved back to Poland in August last year, I sold my euros for 3,17
zlotys (that was the exchange rate back then). Today, 1 euro is worth 4,16
zlotys. So zloty did, in fact, lose about 25% of it's value since August 2008.

So? Are we 25 percent poorer? Do we "think Russia again"? (whatever that is supposed to mean) :)
OP pawian 168 | 11,175  
25 Dec 2009 /  #372
Now your position on the matter is clear to me (it wasn`t so before) and I can say it is fair and I seem to be convinced by your logic.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #373
Not to me actually.

Why being grateful and satisfied if the EU doesn't do anything for Poland at all??? ;)

Would Poland really better off outside? Economically? Politically?
Would Poland count as much outside the frame of the EU?

Most of the Poles don't think so...as I said, Torqi should take it to the media and inform the people! :)

Or else that sounds alot like Crowies germanic conspiracy/Slavia theories....
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #374
Why being grateful and satisfied if the EU doesn't do anything for Poland at all?

Oh, come one - I made it quite clear, BB. As long as we're inside EU, we accept all
the subsidies with gratefulnes and satisfaction (even if I believe that we might
have better economical development chances outside EU - but that's plain theory,
we are an EU member and that's reality).

Would Poland really better off outside?

Financially - YES, I believe we might have a chance of being better off (providing,
of course, we chose real, capitalist government and introduced real liberal,
free-market reforms).

Politically? Would Poland count as much outside the frame of the EU?

NO. That's why I support our EU membership.

Torqi should take it to the media and inform the people! :)

Actually, I already read about it in the media. There's a very decent weekly
magazine called "Najwyższy Czas" - I'll send you a couple of issues as soon
as you learn Polish, BB ;)
Wroclaw Boy  
25 Dec 2009 /  #375
Financially - YES, I believe we might have a chance of being better off (providing,
of course, we chose a real, capitalist government and introduced real liberal,
free-market reforms).

grass is always greener hey? you didnt manage to get it right witin the 20 odd years before EU accession what makes you think it will be different now?

Poland has many teething problems galvanised in their every day lives it'll take a lot more than a new efficient government to root all that crap the hell outta here.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #376
"Najwyższy Czas" - I'll send you a couple of issues as soon as you learn Polish, BB ;)

That sounds dangerous Torqi! ;)

NO. That's why I support our EU membership.

Well...as long as you don't start accusing little 'ol me with planning to annex you behind your back (and to germanize you of course) I'm happy...I guess..
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #377
you didnt manage to get it right witin the 20 odd years before EU accession

It's 15 years, not 20 (1989-2004).

Polish GDP since 1988 to 2004 has grown by about 70% and the inflation
has dropped from 60% to about 3% so I'd say we DID get it right, even
before the accession (but of course, as you said, we would need much more
time than 15 years to sort all things out).

Well...as long as you don't start accusing little 'ol me with planning to annex you behind your back (and to germanize you of course) I'm happy...I guess...

Now, when did I do that??? *profoundly shocked*
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #378
Now, when did I do that??? *profoundly shocked*

You didn't...I'm just saying...:)
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #379
LOL

You're just saying, eh? So, maybe you were planning something after all?
A little "Ein reich, ein volk, ein euro" scheme, eh? ;)

germanize you of course

Germanize me? Well, I'm already a little bit anglicized, francocized and latinized
so a little bit of germanization wouldn't hurt me, I guess :)
southern 75 | 7,096  
25 Dec 2009 /  #380
EU subsidies act as an accelarator,they should not count as part of the GDP.Torq you confuse the micro- with the macro-.EU cares about the macro while you put emphasis on the micro-.Of course zloty has lost it's value and of course you are poorer now since you cannot afford the same quantity of goods.You had to lose value to garantee EU stability.

But if you were not inside EU zloty would lose much more maybe the same with grivna(100 percent).Russians managed to keep the ruble by selling their resources from oil and gas sales but you have no resources.

Like Belarus which lost relatively less compared to Ukraine because it is subsidized by Russia while you lost even less because you get subsidized by the EU.
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #381
they should not count as part of the GDP

I'm not so sure. Our bankers and economists and mainstream media
(like "Rzeczpospolita") very often talk about subsidies in relation to
our GDP and they know what they're talking about (hopefully :)).

of course you are poorer now since you cannot afford the same quantity of goods

The same quantity of foreign goods, you mean, because iniside Poland
the inflation and prices increase are not that high. Besides, it's good for
our exporting companies who have the edge over the competing firms
from EU (there's two sides to every medal).

But if you were not inside EU zloty would lose much more

You don't know that. Do Norwegian krone or Swiss franc lose that much because
Norway and Switzerland are outside EU?

Currency fluctuations are a completely different matter, Southern. That's why,
to avoid them, our German friends came up with the "Ein Union, Ein Volk, Ein Euro"
project ;)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #382
Do Norwegian krone or Swiss franc lose that much because
Norway and Switzerland are outside EU?

Do you put Poland in the same league as Norway with it's oil or the Swiss with it's banks???

;)

A better hint for reality would be looking eastwards, there you have countries outside of the EU...without it's support...
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #383
A better hint for reality would be looking eastwards, there you have countries outside of the EU...without it's support...

Well, Belarus receives annually about $4 billion subsidies from Russia,
having roughly $100 billion GDP, which means that they get proportionally
8 times more subsidies than Poland gets from EU and still it doesn't
help them that much.

You have an example from your own backyard, BB:

The German government has spent between 7bn and 11bn Euro per year on active
labor market policies (ALMP) in East Germany in the last decade. The effectiveness of
the most important programs (in terms of participants and spending) such as
job-creation schemes and vocational training has been evaluated quite thoroughly in
recent years

ideas.repec.org/p/iza/izadps/dp3360.html

Even as much as 11 billion Euro PER YEAR, and that's only for labor-market policies!
Tell me, weren't the results a little bit dissapointing (to put it very, very mildly)?

My main point is that regardless of currency fluctuations or foreign subsidies,
the well-being of any nation depends in 99,9% on the resourcefulness, intelligence
and hard-work of its people.
I would like all those who exaggerate the EU's support for Poland and all those
who talk about Poland "milking the poor, old EU" to remember about this simple truth :)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #384
Even as much as 11 billion Euro PER YEAR, and that's only for labor-market policies!
Tell me, weren't the results a little bit dissapointing (to put it very, very mildly)?

It would be MUCH worse without all the helpl, Torq!

I acknowledge that and don't assume Eastern Germany would be better off without all this support, I would be an idiot!

My main point is that regardless of currency fluctuations or foreign subsidies,
the well-being of any nation depends in 99,9% on the resourcefulness, intelligence
and hard-work of its people.

It's abit more complicated than that Torq, and you should know it.
Or do you see Poland as without resources, dumb and lazy just because they were most of the time dirt poor?
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #385
It would be MUCH worse without all the helpl, Torq!

Maybe. Maybe your eastern compatriots lost their resourcefullness and spirit
of enterprise under Soviet boot. If you say so. Poles luckily didn't and we proved
it after the fall of communism (even before joining the EU and receiving any
subsidies, we managed to increase our GDP by 70% and bring inflation down
from 60% to 3%).

Or do you see Poland as without resources, dumb and lazy just becausethey were most of the time dirt poor

I think you'd be wrong here, BB. Polish GDP per capita before WW2
was on level par with Spanish one. The fact that it isn't so today is
a result of 45 years of Soviet occupation and the idiotic economic system
that they enforced (I won't mention the German contribution from 1939
to 1945 for the sake of good realtions ;)).
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #386
Maybe your eastern compatriots lost their resourcefullness and spirit
of enterprise under Soviet boot. If you say so. Poles luckily didn't

Oh please....that stops being funny!

even before joining the EU and receiving any
subsidies we managed to increase our GDP by 70%

It's easy to rise your GDP that much if there wasn't anything there before that...
The whole eastern block started practically from scratch! You should have been there.

The fact that it isn't so today is
a result of 45 years of Soviet occupation and idiotic economic system
that they enforced

ROFL
Thank you for agreeing with me that the success of a country depends on more factors than just resources, intelligence or hard work.

A country needs peace and a frame work which rewards intelligence and hard work....and alot of investments to build the needed infrastructure...for that the EU is better than anything else (and alot better as doing it all on your own).
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #387
It's easy to rise your GDP that much if there wasn't anything before that.

Now, you're exaggerating. We weren't exactly rich, but our farming, mining
and heavy industry were doing quite well. It was the idiotic economic system
that kept all the potential tied.

Thank you for agreeing with me that the success of a country depends on more factors than just resources, intelligence or hard work.

Obviously I was talking about the current situation and not about communist times :)

At the current moment, the success of Poland depends in 99,9% on the resourcefullness,
intelligence and hard work of Poles. Take all the subsidies from us completely or give us
twice as much as you're giving now, and it won't make that much heck of a difference.

A country needs peace and a frame work which rewards intelligence and hard work....and alot of investments to build the needed infrastructure...for that the EU is better than anything else (and alot better as doing it all on your own).

Of course! But let's not exaggerate the influence of money that equals about
0,5% of Polish GDP on the overall well-being of our country. It helps - SURE,
but not THAT much.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #388
We weren't exactly rich, but our farming, mining
and heavy industry were doing quite well.

Interesting to hear that.
I've seemed to get only the wrong info about Poland till '89...:(

Obviously I was talking about the current situation and not about communist times :)

No, you didn't.

Take all the subsidies from us completely or give us
twice as much as you're giving now, and it won't make that much heck of a difference.

I doubt that very much....;)
Torq 28 | 2,759  
25 Dec 2009 /  #389
No, you didn't.

Yes I did.

You quoted me from the post below...

My main point is that regardless of currency fluctuations or foreign subsidies,
the well-being of any nation depends in 99,9% on the resourcefulness, intelligence
and hard-work of its people.
I would like all those who exaggerate the EU's support for Poland and all those
who talk about Poland "milking the poor, old EU" to remember about this simple truth :)

...when I was talking about current situation in relation to current EU support for Poland.

Anyway - it's Christmas and I don't feel like arguing forever over a completely
theoretical issue. The reality is that we are in EU, we will receive some subsidies
and we will, eventually, grow filthy rich (and that, I wish to Poland and all other
EU countries in the coming New Year 2010 :)).
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,377  
25 Dec 2009 /  #390
The reality is that we are in EU, we will receive some subsidies
and we will, eventually, grow filthy rich (and that, I wish to Poland and all other
EU countries in the coming New Year 2010 :)).

Amen

f*ck! Did I say that???

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