Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / News  % width 101

BRAIN DRAIN ON POLAND


Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
24 Nov 2006 /  #1
Im not fully aware of the facts and figures, but I am aware that young educated Polish people are leaving Poland in search of a better life - when I say life I mean a life that brings more opportunities and of course more money. Whilst this is a good thing for the individual, what does this mean for the country? As a country that has been so strong to become what it has today and then to have so many leave, what does this say? I understand from a friend that is Polish, she is here to save and to buy a property in Poland, so that means future investment which is good, UK get tax paid to them and Poland get investment in the property market, but, what about those that dont have these kind of plans? What about those that want to stay because they feel the situation in Poland will never change?

I WOULD LIKE VIEWS FROM POLISH PEOPLE ONLY
hello  
24 Nov 2006 /  #2
If the country (especially the governments - the current one or the last ones) don't care about young Polish people, why should they care about Poland? For the Polish goverment it's even better that there are many Poles working abroad as the unemployment figures look "more and more promising" (since less and less Polish people live in Poland).

But don't worry - when there's a III world war, we (the Poles) will come back to Poland to save it from foreign occupiers. Unless they will sell us out to the EU first.
EnemyCommander 7 | 7  
24 Nov 2006 /  #3
so would these people be considered sellouts?... or not?
hello  
24 Nov 2006 /  #4
If for you the word "sellout" is negative, I would not agree with you. Are people who were born in the mountains, but then moved to the seaside (because they prefer water to mountains) "sellouts"?
OP Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
24 Nov 2006 /  #5
But would you not agree that the economy is suffering because of this and as a whole the country will suffer if the people leave? I think Poland has to address the situation and that means people speaking out, you are a strong country with young people who are politically aware, I fail to understand how you can let a government govern who are inadequate. The UK prosper because these educated hungry (I use the term hungry - as a metaphore - they want so much out of life) young professionals arrive here and in major cities they are taken on in high profile jobs....going are the days that Polish are considered the cleaners, Polish people are professionals and are making their mark.
hello  
24 Nov 2006 /  #6
But would you not agree that the economy is suffering because of this and as a whole the country will suffer if the people leave?

I totally agree with that. But if you read the article about corruption in Poland (a little exaggerated maybe but this is what happens every day on the highest business/political level) you will notice that young people just give up - -> they know they hurt Poland by leaving it for another country, but on the other hand they don't want to waste their lives like their parents or grandparents did. They want to have their own apartment, car, a good place to raise their families. Poland will get there sooner than later, but the current generation won't wait and I'm not surprised. They realize life's too short to live off ideas. The young generation at least have a choice to move to another country - their parents couldn't do that.
OP Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
24 Nov 2006 /  #7
I agree with your post, because I have a friend that is doing just that with her boyfriend, but, what about those that dont have the choice to leave Poland, those that are young with families? Who are there trying to make it a better place, why should they fight for a better Poland only for those who have done well overseas to come back and increase property prices, because that's what will happen.
ola123  
25 Nov 2006 /  #8
Price of properties already increased about 150% in 2 years. I was redaing recently report that only 20% of young immigrants want to come back but not soon.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,386  
25 Nov 2006 /  #9
If we had a government that was working properly and not arguing all the time then they might be able to do something about the brain drain. As it is, people like the Mayor of Wroclaw, who is not aligned to any party, are the only ones doing anything.

I also see an exchange of people. There are more and more British husbands/wives coming to Poland and starting up new companies.
There is a lot of new business here (in Wroclaw) so I don't think the problem is so bad.
Those people working abroad are the ones pushing up property prices as well as foreign investment.
We can't all win.
Bartolome 2 | 1,085  
25 Nov 2006 /  #10
I came to the UK, for I just couldn't find a job in my province. So I just considered that if I have to leave my home for a search of a job, and if that job has to be poorly paid, I would rather move to Britain, where at least I can augment my English and try to start new studies. But if I succeed with my plans, I'm probably not going back to Poland... If the general situation retains so unstable, I can't see a place for me there any more. Now I would come back only in the case of some misfortune.
miranda  
25 Nov 2006 /  #11
I totally understand your situation. I return to Canada because of those reasons.
As much as I would like to live in Poland - it seems that it's a country only for few and the once who cannot leave.

Sad but true.
Bartolome 2 | 1,085  
25 Nov 2006 /  #12
Thank you for some good words. It's not that I'm all happy to live abroad - I only considered moving abroad as an 'emergency plan', I also can see how they perceive us in the UK (invasion, Polish scum, etc, etc, not everybody of course, but there are always people who will stir), and I can understand that they are fed up with all that immigration, but I have to think about my future first, I'm not going to live under the bridge just because it's a Polish one. I would like to go back to Poland, but is there any future for me ?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
25 Nov 2006 /  #13
In short term this is a good thing. In long term we will see.
Frank 23 | 1,183  
25 Nov 2006 /  #14
As regards other nations experiences; stats show ( up until the last 10 when the celtic tiger took over) that only 6% of all Irish emigants ever returned to Ireland.

However a colossal 56% of Italians returned to their home country after a lifetimes work in a foreign land. No doubt the Polish dispora will be somewhere in between.

The difference perhaps in the Polish experience is that, its almost entirely an economic migration...which gives lots of options; as opposed to others where it was stay and die or migrate and live......well to a degree!

Am sure there is a huge brain drain relative to the population...but also lots doing other jobs; the accumulation of wealth, knowledge and the "other side of the fence" experience will only benfit the aspiring nation that is modern Poland.

The biggest fly in the ointment, is the government...can they rise to the occasion?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
25 Nov 2006 /  #15
Am sure there is a huge brain drain relative to the population

How is that ? Most of these people are factory workers, truck drivers, waitress etc.
Maati 1 | 178  
25 Nov 2006 /  #16
"How is that ? Most of these people are factory workers, truck drivers, waitress etc. "

Exactly, even when they are well-educated but unfortunately graduated from artistic faculties i.e. art history, linguistics, literature, culture studies etc.
On the other hand, what good is here, right-wing extremists,illegal abortion, poverty, no future for young,beautiful, well-educated people...
Frank 23 | 1,183  
25 Nov 2006 /  #17
Well.....lots of the local hospitals have Polish anaesthetists, plus other specialist doctors, in UK generally, hundreds of doctors come over to do weekend shifts....there is no doubt a limited supply of this type of worker.....whereas anyone can do factory work, waiter etc

There are lots of people from Poland with degrees etc doing more manual work in Ireland/UK....so their specialsit skills/qualifications are being lost to Poland...cant be replaced in 1 -2 yrs.....doctors in 5-6 yrs.
ola123  
25 Nov 2006 /  #18
Emmigration is very good for Poland as a country, a lot of young ppl were unemployed and they have jobs now abroad. There is 15% of unemployment in Poland so these who are in UK wouldnt find the job in their homeland, they are not really "lost". UKI helped us a lot opening their borders, at least these ppl can work, earn and make normal living, unfortunately most of them have low paid jobs but its still better than sitting in Poland having any job......
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
25 Nov 2006 /  #19
There are lots of people from Poland with degrees etc doing more manual work in Ireland/UK....so their specialsit skills/qualifications are being lost to Poland...

We are "producing" a few hundred thousand such people with degrees every year. Poles, especially young are simply overeducated for this level of economical developement. Generally people, who are leaving are those who aren't smart enough (and I'm not insluting anyone because in next year I am probably going to UK) to make a career in Poland and choose ****** job in UK or Irealand (for 1.500 EUR) over ****** job (below their qualifications) in Poland (for 300 EUR) or no job at all.

right-wing extremists

I voted for PiS If you mean that :).
Wroclaw 44 | 5,386  
25 Nov 2006 /  #20
Ola123

Unemployment is 9% here [Wroclaw]. Which I admit is still too high.

Grzegorz,

Where did you get the idea that these people are low income workers.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
26 Nov 2006 /  #21
Where did you get the idea that these people are low income workers.

Poles in UK ? You mean they aren't ?
Frank 23 | 1,183  
26 Nov 2006 /  #22
In Ireland....minumum wage for agricultural work is set at E8.12 an hour, though of course there are employers who will try and NOT pay this, both to locals and migrant workers!

So whilst in local terms this is deemed to be low pay, in relative terms its a lot higher than Polish people can get back home, plus lots have 2nd and sometimes 3rd jobs....ok, come the end of the week they are wrecked...but they still have had the opportunity to earn this money which is denied in Poland.

So in real terms they become "high" income workers!!
kris20006  
26 Nov 2006 /  #23
i speak english french learn spanish,currently studing at Cracow Univ. Of Economics.been to UK couple times in france and travelled a lot in western Europe: Italy Germany Switzerland Hungary, France Belgium.Everywhere I go polish people are who I find on my way.And I do not necessarily look for them. Of course I am polish as well but it is annoying to find so many polish people abroad ( they are usually not "smart" no education some of them don't know the language of the country they're in, bad behaviour sometimes)and they are all after the money educated or not,doing the simplest jobs mainly, which only confirms that they cannot get the money in Poland.

Who to blame?
- Germans??
- Russians??
- EU??
- Government?? - no for sure? what would you do? it takes time and reasonable decisions to make the lifestyle better, to make the wages grow and so on.

Anyway I don't care, i'll get some qualifications and handle my life the best i can.
Individuals' growth of income will make the country's income grow according to the economic laws.
The only thing to worry about is the future difference between the people who still earn 4 zl ( if lucky) per hour or couple hundred after converting their foreign divises.

Well the question is simple so should be the answer.

God bless America and lots of the Polish people in the world.
any comments or discussions that u want to have: ---> kris90210@o2.pl
see u for now
Wroclaw 44 | 5,386  
26 Nov 2006 /  #24
Grzegorz,

When in Poland they are potential high earners. Doctors, Dentists etc.

When in the UK they are low income workers. They take a change of direction workwise.

Is this what you mean ?

I find that those in there twenties don't really know what to do when they get to England and will settle for almost anything that pays reasonably well.

Older people have a wife and kids at home, so they take job hunting more seriously. They find a better job and then go.
Bartolome 2 | 1,085  
26 Nov 2006 /  #25
So in real terms they become "high" income workers!!

Yeah... compared to Polish wages... but you have to spend your money in countries where you work, not in Poland (food, bills etc), and that's where all fun ends...
Frank 23 | 1,183  
26 Nov 2006 /  #26
Not really.........a lot of the people I see here in our town....work hard and play little, never see them out, they wear the same clothes day in day out, they walk everywhere, they save and send it home.....these people are not here for fun, but to get a foothold in life back home by taking back or sending back 5-15k a year for a year or two and get a start in life.

One of the girls who featured in the film I spoke about a few days ago, was shown sitting on the several hectare area of land she'd bought outside of Katowice, on which she intends to build a house in two years time, she was very proud of her efforts and the end result - she said if she stayed in Poland she would have grown old before she'd had the chance to do the same in Poland.

But she was prepared to sacrifice 2-4 yrs of life now so she'd be better off in the medium.
run.

She doesn't appear to have any formal qualifications, its always down to hard work, committement and having a vision of where you want to go.

She is just one of many Polish people who have that.
annamaria  
26 Nov 2006 /  #27
According to Home Office statistics (admittedly, not very reliable, but still), about 80% of all Polish immigrants earn 6 pounds an hour or less. So the majority are actually factory, agricultural, catering and hospitality industry workers. It is hardly surprising - Poles take the jobs that don't require competing with the locals. You can see that it is more difficult for a Polish nurse to get a job as a nurse here than it was 2 years ago, before NHS cut jobs and British nurses lost jobs.

As for the brain drain - I think it is a disaster. As a journalist, I speak to lots of Polish people and the ones that will not return are the youngest, best educated and enterpreneurial people. The ones that will go back are the older, less flexible, less ambitious ones, who live in a language and cultural ghetto.
Bartolome 2 | 1,085  
26 Nov 2006 /  #28
about 80% of all Polish immigrants earn 6 pounds an hour or less.

That was the point of my previous post - you lose with local people if you want to get a better jobs (this is my experience, so I'm talking for myself only) - you have to accept the worst ones, in terms of both conditions and salaries.
iwona 12 | 542  
26 Nov 2006 /  #29
As a journalist, I speak to lots of Polish people and the ones that will not return are the youngest, best educated and enterpreneurial people. The ones that will go back are the older, less flexible, less ambitious ones, who live in a language and cultural ghetto.

I don't agree with it.

Some people are well educated, ambitious with good ideas who stay ( or came back from emigration) in Poland, open their own companies, do careers...work in internatinal companies...

It seems to be big thing now in Polish media that all young, educated people leave Poland.... do they really?

Some young people have good jobs in Poland, some just after school left Poland but did they achieve so much abroad? We don't really know it .. maybe not, maybe they are already back or will be soon back....

I don't want to sound mean as I know there are Polish people in UK who have good jobs and carers but I have impression that majority of polish emigration are people who work hard here but I wouldn't say they are very ambitious and educated.

That was the point of my previous post - you lose with local people if you want to get a better jobs (this is my experience, so I'm talking for myself only) - you have to accept the worst ones, in terms of both conditions and salaries.

You lose in the beginning as they don't know anything about you ( no work history in UK) but if someone is ambitious, good, speaks good English he can always move on....
Frank 23 | 1,183  
26 Nov 2006 /  #30
about 80% of all Polish immigrants earn 6 pounds an hour or less

Yes, this is largely true...but as I have noted above....lots of them hold two jobs.....so they go all out to maximise there earnings whilst here...they know it won't last for ever, and indeed have a limited time here too.

But people on the board say that min wages back home are 80-95 pence an hour back home....well.....you can survive for a 1 or two years on just half this......in Ireland....£3 an hour.....be on your second job.......for another 20-30 hrs a week.......ergo......spending £160 a week to live...and save £250 plus week!!...or thereabouts!!

Archives - 2005-2009 / News / BRAIN DRAIN ON POLANDArchived