Abkhazia and South Ossetia are independent states now! Poland reaction?

That wasn't the question because that's quite logical! :)

You rather implied no Czechs with german heritage...

well i guess was too vague. But thats not what I meant ! :)

Well...a Finn and a German talking in english on a polish board about Czechs...somehting like that is bound to happen! :):):)

LOL....

From an American Polish/Ethnic German with Finn MtDNA, how that got in there I have no idea!

What do y'all think of Chomsky's article about the georgian mess?

counterpunch.org/chomsky09112008.html

I have realized that the communists pay the elitist to support govt and democracies pay them to criticize the govt although I do like noam but now I think I understand his role more

well noam is no communist, and no government pays anyone to criticize it in the US.

Hello everyone here.. I want to say that there is now words to discribe that brutality Russians did in Georgia... They bombed civilian blocks in the tawn Gori and killed many innocent people..

It's just a crime against humanity and Russia will pay for it.. It is a challenge to the whole Europe

Any back up?

Does enybody here believes that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are independent states? Does anybody in the world believes that this is "the theory of states' formation in the international law..." as Mr. Medvedev the mindless president of Russia commented during the joint press conference with president Sarkozi?

Good god, it's just the stupid behavior in Russia's history ever... Soon the international court will confirm what Russian Government did in Georgia...

This is true and the sad part is the innocent victim's that once more have lost loved ones due to Russia's quest to own the world.

Putin defends Georgia offensive

On 8 August, when he was in Beijing for the start of the Olympic Games, he had spoken to US President George W Bush soon after hearing of the attack by Georgian troops on the South Ossetian capital - but the United States had failed to intervene.

In Beijing, he had already raised the question of Russia recognizing Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent territories with the Chinese government, and told them Russia did not expect Chinese support.

This is an interesting comment that suggests Russia was already planning to recognize the two regions from very early on in the crisis.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7611482.stm

How?By low flights?Admit it,Russians are real men,they fly during day and low despite of antiaircraft guns in order to achieve precise bombardment.Who is the one flying in the night and in great height?

Whoever is upset is not because of bombing of civilians but because of destruction of recently built georgian military capability which was the target of Russians.

So far we've had two parrots who harp on their mantras ignoring others points. It's Georgian and Celinski. You're the third. Congrats! :)


Does anybody here believe that Georgia is an independent country?


Meanwhile Sabakashvilli mindfully chewed his tie on BBC.


What a nice couple?! How sweet! :)))

The russian military has no interest in targeting civilians because this will give power to Saakasvili.They want to wipe out the military infrustructure,not the civilian one.They didn' target factories etc but only camps,tanks and so on.

it is better to look at the evidances already submitted to the international court and the facts of ethnic cleansing...

Yes it is true that Russia planned to the war with Georgia.. I should mentuion that 2/3 of the separatist Abkhazia was controled by Georgians and more than 2/3 of the so called South Ossetia before the war. What Russia did? Russia provoked that entire massacre and occupied these territories and declared independence. Russia does need these territories. Then you will ask why? Because to put the pressure on the whole Europe. That is all. Russia has empire, post soviet feelings, unrealistic ambitious to be one that should be asked when dealing with the Caucasus or Europe.

Never underestimate the Russian nationalist feeling and Oriental desire to empire. Russians really believe that from the Baltics through east ukraine, through Moldova down to the Crimea all should be Russian. Ditto the Caucasus. Russians are not Western, not European but a blend of Oriental ideas and the Arab cultural penchant for violence, deceit and theft. Never trust them.

Please for more information u you can visit sosgeorgia.org

Russia is not picking fights; you must understand Western/Zionist thinking as regards the 'global chessboard'...You should read the writings of the 'Wandering Pole' Zbigniew Brezinski in regards to the 'grand strategy'.

wtf I just don't get it, Georgia launched a criminal attack on August 7, which was uncalled for and absolutely unnacceptable, the Russian response by contrast, was completely predictable not only because Russia is a big power with interests in the region, but also because the two independent provinces are strongly pro-russian and rely on Russian help.

Both provinces have been historically pro-russian and against integration with Georgia. While russia is no saint, in this episode it is Georgian actions that deserve condemnation....

They did not plan the war.They had a plan of intervention if georgian forces attacked South Ossetia.In the same way you can tell that USA has planned war against Russia,Iran and China because there are for sure plans of intervention in case for example China attacks Taiwan etc.



Georgian forces started the killing.They invaded South Ossetia.Not the opposite.


Or liberated these terittories from georgian occupation.


Yes,it does not need them.Why?Because Russia was provoked to do so.


Who should be asked?


I don't underestimate but what about those who want to exploit it?

Let's say for example you want to cause problem to Russia.Where should you hit?
China is not proper because it has recently done arrangements on border issues which are very favourable for China,and it would be stupidity to provoke.After all China has no reason to represent foreign interests.

Then muslims(used effectively in Afghanistan war) are a dangerous game.Because if you support them,they will extend killing in Iraq,Afghanistan by helping their comrades fighting there.So it is a double sword with opposite effects.

The other side of islamists who sympathize to Iran,Syria etc have orders not to do sth against Russia which supports Iran and Syria in all cases.

So the opportunity to play game with eslamist extremists,mudjas in Caucasus is lost.

What remains?Georgia for example,a weak state with problems seeking support.So they press Russia through Georgia.Later they may press Russia through Moldova attacking Transdnistria,through Latvia expelling Russian citizens and through Ukraine by trying to throw russian fleet out of Crimea.Of course in order to act so,Ukraine for example will ask for a lot more than Georgia did to participate.And there is the danger of the whole dissolution of Ukraine in case of a provocation leading to a russian invasion.

That is why they did not try Ukraine this time to press.They intend gradually to put all forces against Russia,to push and push as to achieve a collapse of government and new contracts with favourable deals for the oil firms.

In this case why not support the russian nationalism?

It was not controlled by Georgians but by them(the separatists) with support of peacekeepers.

good job Southern, in the end, it's just obvious that if Georgia preemptively assaults two autonomous, historically pro-russian provinces, that Russia will come to their rescue in case of Georgian attacks.


exactly.

Hungary, Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Afghanistan, and now Georgia... Does anybody remember? Each time we are told the Russian government is acting in the interests of peace, each time more innocent people die. It is time to made Russia stop!!! That is why now the whole Europe becomes unequivocal towards the violence in Georgia…

“Good job”? OK well done. Do you both think that disinformation that you post here on this forum is a good job? Hey, you guys can you just bring or show to the audience here any evidence that it was Georgia that started war with Russia? It could be just suicide. So this version of disinformation is very ridicules.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia always were the integral parts of Georgia and they will be... There should not be any dispute about that. And the Georgian territorial integrity recognized by Russia itself and the rest of the world. On August, 2008 Russia just with brutality invaded those territories. That is all.

The invasion was long planned by Russian block head politicians. Before they started war with Georgia they evacuated the whole population from South Ossetia and attacked Gergian police forces controlling those villages where Georgian population lived… Do you want to know what happened? Before the war Georgia, a number of times tried to release the tensions, negotiate but in vain. The head of so called Russian Peacekeeping forces just declared that they can’t control the armed criminal groups of few Ossetians.

That was the beginning of war with Georgia… Hey guys, do you both know how much the population residing in South Ossetia and in Abkhazia? There are less than 30 000 ethnic ossetians and just less than ethnic 50 000 Abkhazians in Abkhazia. Now, it is time to enlighten you upon the percentage and number of Georgians resided before the conflict. There were about 450 000 in Abkhazia and more than 300 000 Georgians in South Ossetia. Nowadays the number of internally displaced persons turned to be more than 200 000 (I mean internally displaced from town of Gori and other regions that are far from conflict regions). Do you see the differences? So, with the help of Russian forces some armed criminal groups of Abkhazians and South Ossetians made more than 700 000 Georgians to flee (including some ethnic Abkhazians and Ossetians) from their native places… There is no conflict between Georgians, Abkhazians and Ossetians… This one is between Russia and Georgia.

Above I said including some ethnic Abkhazians and Ossetians. I meant that those Abkhazians and Ossetians who escaped those massacres (provoked from time to time by Russian forces) live on Georgian controlled territories. For Example there are about 1500 Abkhazians in the beautiful seaside city Batumi and many Ossetions live quietly in the east side of Georgia as well…

Do you know why Georgia punished? Georgia simply is a democratic country striving to get the NATO membership. Russia is afraid of democracy and freedom and the respect of basic human rights… Please do not try to discuss the issue in globalization dimension. In this case it simply is not applicable…

I, once again reiterate there are facts of ethnic cleansing till now in Georgia. If you don’t believe you can come in Georgia everyone will be your host and you see how the “good job” is done… Only some blockhead will not see them: destroyed civilian blocks, killed innocent people, burned all kinds of property (especially those of Georgians), children without parents...

It is your choice to who and in what you believe...

Do you think Russia needs one more port?

The main issue when considering russian foreign politics is not what Russia needs but what Russia wants and what Russia wants is rarely the same as what it needs.

Only thing I think and all other Europeans are thinking is that Russia should pay for all that massacres that did in Europe... I will post some pictures indicating to the Russia’s brutality on August 2008, Georgia.

Photos.ge

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  destroyed civilian block in town Gori
  
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  civilianblock2.jpg
  
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  Russian marauders did this in town Gori. Destroyed Bank of Georgia
  
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  destroyed shcool near the town Gori
  

uh...and what about destruction from the georgian attacks. Obviously if you're gonna post pictures of the effects of the russian attack then you HAVE to post pictures of what the Georgians did as well when they started this whole mess on August 7th. that's obvious, you'll come off as biased otherwise.

There are differences about the conflicts but this one can’t be compared to any one. Please read above, I wrote about it… What happened in Georgia in the 21st century, on August 2008, it is completely different situation…

Photos.ge

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  Russian marauders tried to take money from TBC bank
  
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  Ruined civilian site by Russian bloody army
  
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  Ruined civilian cite by Russian bloody army near to the town Gori
  
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  Spoiled Georgian property
  

Was there not some fighting on August 6th?

Are you sure that it was destroyed by Georgian police forces in Ckhinvali? Do you mean Ckhinvali? It was Russian jets that bombed all the territory. Hey, from where you take that disinformation?

Ok, if Georgians did these, can you post any single picture of that entire massacre? Probably you will not, because nobody except Russian bias Media could get into the city of Ckhinvali. By the way when Georgians were standing inside the city one of the Russian journalist asked Georgian police forces to allow him to enter the city. They warned that it was extremely dangerous as Russian jets were going to bomb the city… The journalist got inside the city and was killed by Russian troops…

By the way till now Russian troops don’t allow international observers to get into Ckhinvali… The answers to these questions are simple because they try to hinder something behind them.

Why after the Russian troops occupied territories they killed journalists and did not allow them work there? The journalists from Polska TV were arrested for number of days. They tried to get into the city of Ckhinvali; One of the Journalist from Holland was killed… There are many facts that will be revealed after the international observers will be deployed on the entire Georgian territories. Pardon me but the truth will be revealed for you soon and for others like you…

photos.ge

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  Block post at the entrance of Igoeti
  
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  Russians troops don’t allow journalists to get into the city
  
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  Russian troops occupied Georgian territory
  
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  Damaged Georgian property in port Poti
  

can`t? Everything is comparable

just look at me how i compare Serbia with Georgia... ta da ta da ta da...


yes, there are huge differences

Differences are that NATO support Georgia, while Russia support (well, it becoming questionable but, let`s say) Serbia.

Difference is also that state of Georgia act as NATO lap dog, while in case of Serbia we speak about state and ethos of dignity who don`t give a sh** to be lap dog to anyone, even if that means highest prices.

Nature of conflict within separated regions in Georgia and Serbia were/are completely different. In Georgia, native population- Ossetians and Abkhazians desired to separate after their rights were violated by Georgian ethnic state.

Then, process of negotiations was violated by Georgian troops and Russia acted to stop that.

In Serbia, on Kosovo-Metohija Serbian state reacted after terror of extreme Muslim Albanians occurred in order to separate province as part of `bigger picture`- creation of Greater Albania. It should be also said that Albanian extremists took active (their fighters) role in Civil War in former Yugoslavia supporting Bosnian Muslims and Croatian ustashe. Also, Albanians aren`t natives in the region but hostile newcomers who arrived with Turkish occupational troops.

Then, NATO reacted on the behalf of Albanians and pushed Serbian troops and police out from province. Then, started negotiations about status of Kosovo but NATO/USA promised independence to Albanians. Serbia never violently interfered in process of negotiations in case with Kosovo status. Here, USA and complete NATO interfered and Albanian side, one sided, declared independence violated all international treaties and protocols.

Am I sure that what was destroyed by "Georgian police forces"?

that's not what I said at all, I think you misunderstood me, so I'll apologize for not being clear.

What I said was that you only posted pics of the destruction caused by Russian forces. But let's remember that this conflict started on August 7th, when Georgian forces preemptively attacked S.Ossetia while the Olympics were getting under way in China. So my question to you was, and still is: Could you please post pictures of the destruction caused by Georgian forces, (the ones that invaded and started this whole mess?) And my second question is why wouldn't you post them in the first place, instead of only posting the damage caused by Russia?

Imagine if I only posted pictures of the destruction caused by US forces in Iraq, without posting images of the damage wrought by Iraqi insurgents. that would paint an incomplete picture wouldn't you agree?

Again I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. But I'm interested in your answer.


There were ongoing skirmishes but the real war started the morning of August 7th, when Georgia decided that it was time to re-take South Ossetia - an absolutely mad, insane, and criminal move by any standard - Even Hitler would have been justified in responding to such a move with force were he the ruler of Russia - anyone would have, so the actual Russian response was predictable and the only rational one. Of course, we can lament the subsequent damage caused by the fighting, but while Russia should be held accountable for this, those who gave the orders from Georgia are particularly responsible for bringing this conflict into the heart of the civilian population.

You know nothing about the conflict in Georgia. So, go ahead and keep up that “good job”.

Please, can you just read what I am writing to answer to your questions? And please don't feed people with the disinformation. It is better to go deep in problem that happened in Georgia and then post anything about Georgia and its territorial integrity. I can compare for you one simple example: if some people in Warsaw (it just an example) lets say some pro Russian minded (I think that any pro Russian or pro American is very stupid trends) people will demand and state that Warsaw should be independent is it ok? Then Russia will give those people arms and Russian passports and they will kill others and soon the whole army will be in Warsaw. So you will see millions of internally displaced persons in other cities of Poland. Soon twin presidents from Russia declare the independence of Warsaw. And these will be called the “theory of states formation in international law”. God bless Poland and Georgia.

Look, once again I answer to your question why I was not able to post some pics about the destroyed civil cites in Ckhinvali city. Please read it carefully I am not going to post it again.

I wrote above: Ok, if Georgians did these, can you post any single picture of that entire massacre? Probably you will not, because nobody except Russian bias Media could get into the city of Ckhinvali. By the way when Georgians were standing inside the city one of the Russian journalist asked Georgian police forces to allow him to enter the city. They warned that it was extremely dangerous as Russian jets were going to bomb the city… The journalist got inside the city and was killed by Russian troops…

By the way till now Russian troops don’t allow international observers to get into Ckhinvali… The answers to these questions are simple because they try to hinder something behind them.

Why after the Russian troops occupied territories they killed journalists and did not allow them work there? The journalists from Polska TV were arrested for number of days. They tried to get into the city of Ckhinvali; One of the Journalist from Holland was killed… There are many facts that will be revealed after the international observers will be deployed on the entire Georgian territories. Pardon me but the truth will be revealed for you soon and for others like you…

So, from above you should guess - if nobody (except Russian bias Media) allowed getting into the city how one can take pictures out there? I am sorry but I can’t find any single pictures how Georgian police forces destroyed Ckhinvali civil cites and burned especially the houses (like Russians did to those of Georgians) of Georgians while they kept in Ckhinvali during three days. Hey, I will be very grateful if you find any of them….

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  Internally displaced persons from Samachablo (south Ossetia) and town Gor
  
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  Internally displaced persons from different regions of Georgia
  
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  Internally displaced persons at the specially arranged cites (for short t
  
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  Internally displaced boy...