Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

Wrong. In 2000 or actually prior to 2000 there was a conflict between Muslims and Christians. I lived in Australia at that time and remember my Indonesian friends telling me horrible stories about muslims' aggression and cruelty...


Maybe you don't hear about it these days, but sure there's a history of it.

What do you believe about OBL, nrx? Some reports say that he perished in Dec 2001 from a fatal condition. Others say later. Bhutto said he was killed by Omar Sheikh which is likely attention grabbing BS. It was Pakistan that published his obituary years ago.

America let him go. Seymour Hersh ran a story on it. Gary Bernstein wrote about it in his book. They let him escape on the 4th side, having the other 3 sides covered.

Many Pakistanis believe OBL is a myth, any thoughts?

Time for you to study your history and get on a plane to Indonesia, Mr.Bubbles! Do you really believe that Indonesian muslims are a monolith? Do you really believe they all think and behave the same way and that there is never any intercultural friction? You are so naive it is laughable! Maybe you "don't hear a peep" out of the people there, but that is only because you don't listen. You really need to visit Indonesia and see what it is like! Simply knowing that Indonesia exists does not (as you pretend) mean that you understand the social, political and cultural undercurrents. From that foolish comment alone (not to mention so many others) you are showing all of us how little you actually do.

From your references to popular culture it's obvious that you're the one who gets your your "facts" from novels, extremist propaganda and your own limited imagination! And don't think that constantly hiding behind challenges to other posters and wasting time by pelting others with vulgar insults is impressing anyone. You obviously have nothing to offer from your personal experiences or scholarship - only uneducated, juvenile comments that distract but add nothing productive to the topic at hand.

Some of us live in the real world. You should try it. Then maybe you wouldn't write so many silly things!

(Someone had to say it.)

Some of us work with Indonesians and talk to them. Perhaps you should think twice before spouting your ridiculous nonsense about Muslims in front of the other chest-thumping goobers who like to take a swing at people from the safety of their internet connection.


Whatever gave you that impression? Ha Ha! The fact is that the millions of Muslims in Indonesia live together with millions of people of other faiths and do not have a problem with them. A fact borne out by the Indonesians of all faiths who I have worked with. Now run back to your joss sticks and yoga videos little girl.

It's really sad event and people who commit this crime must be punished same way.

On the other hand its America's policy to strenghten extremists against liberals in Islamic
countries. America never want democracy or liberal policies in these countries. I think America believe it's easier to direct or conquer these places if they are on the hands of this kind of idiots.

Al-qaeda and Taliban are god damn fanatics and what they are doing is their own cruelty
it is not something that can be thought islamic.

I don't think many in 'Western' Society would have the stomach for this kind of retribution.

You are right, also there are so few in the "Eastern" society so this should not be used to blame all easterners or muslims.

No, just those who bastardize the "religion of peace" for their own reasons.

Backed by the (former) president of US
and this is one example.

The funniest thing in this thread (and by right wing idjits) is there is no mention about his driver and his bodyguard. Kinda like a life of a western (read white) is more important. Just like in Iraq.

Noone knows for sure really. You are right about that. Sometime ago I heard that the guy is writing a book on his achievements these days. And if obl is such an ambiguous thing then probably allies did lose their original objective. All we do know is those tapes that appear occasionally, verified by CIA. So its a matter of opinion really. My point is that fighting those taliban and hunting down aq are two different things. Its not long before this whole war will start echoing Vietnam and Iraq. The goals are way too ambiguous for any side to claim victory and I have no idea what those additional US troops are expected to achieve. If the goal is to fight a fascist regime, why no go for N.Korea and Myanmar too. They are equally worse if not more.

Precisely. However, they are not of as much strategic importance to them.

Here is the video of the Polish engineer talking to his captures right before being murdered:

liveleak.com/view?i=995_1234146947

*THERE IS NO BLOOD/VIOLENCE IN THE ABOVE VIDEO - JUST TALKING*

Not really...Indonesia beheadings

"Sulawesi (4th largest island in Indonesia) has long been the scene of violent attacks between Christians and Muslims."

yeah? where are the guys who chopped pearl's head off? what about all the others?


you're propsing poland start a war? interesting.


that is not the case at all. most muslims are moderate. just like christians etc.


won't happen. this whole mess can be blamed on the empire of the crown. this is exactly what happens when you arbitrarily draw lines on a piece of paper without understanding the inhabitants.


well said. glad you had that chance.


the crusades, ring a bell?


right on.


southern baptist ~al qaida. lol. no kidding

Many people here says "Islam - religion of peace" or "most muslims are moderate".
It is just not true, at least from outside view...
There are over bilion of them. Why there are only "moderate muslims" and fanatical muslim terrorists? Where is big group of fair and noisy muslisms? Ok, maybe there are a few, but A FEW in over bilion population ?! Why, if this big "moderate" group is so peaceful and just, there are no "march for peace" or "march against fanaticism" organized and attended mostly by muslims? When some draughtsman did funny picture with Muhhamad, then was big outrage, where is this outrage now, when innocent man was killed?

FOR OUTSIDERS MUSLIMS LOOKS LIKE BIG MASS OF SECRET ADMIRERS OF MUSLIM TERRORISTS.

When someone is silent then his/her voice doesn't count!

Not a war, no. Just that GROM target those responsible for that unforgivable act. They were in Iraq before so could be redeployed to Pakistan. Nrx made a good point about the high level of casualties sustained by the their forces. Nobody bats an eyelid there. We care much too much for our own and little for others. I'm guilty of that too as can be seen from the first line.

Yes and no.
It is sad to watch the ramp ceremonies bringing the 108 Dead Canadian soldiers home from Afghanistan. My heart goes out to his comrades, and to his families. The bodies are flown to Trenton Ontario, and driven in convoy to Toronto, along Highway 401 (a stretch of the highway was recently renamed "Highway of Heros), for autopsies. Lining the roads and covering the overpasses are thousands of folks there to show support for our troops. Not necessarily support for the mission, but support for the troops.

On the other hand we are going to have a trial for a soldier accused of murder on the battle field. Sounds barbaric, when you read only the headlines. Dig a little deeper, and you find the meat of the story. This "enemy combatant" was so badly wounded that even if they made an attempt to get him to a hospital for the best possible treatment, he would have likely died in transit. So is it better to give him a little care and compassion in his last, painful minutes of life, or to end his suffering with a bullet? The media portrayed the guy as a murderer.

Some people don't understand that we have an army to do "nasty things" and when snippets of reality start circulating in the media, people lose their stomachs for the job at hand.

That is very interesting, but I have never heard of a mercy killing carried out "in the name of christianity". Sounds to me that they can interpret the religion any way which suites them on any particular day.

Perhaps I am wrong, but from what I interpreted from your well articulated piece, there appears to be a "bully mentality"amongst the muslim communities. The less educated are exploited through no fault of there own, and the well educated are afraid to speak out, for fear of repercussions. Leaving the tyrants to rule the religion.

Sorry, this is in Polish but it basically says that Sikorski is willing to put up cash to the tune of 1 million PLN to those who can provide him info on the guilty murderers. Geez, I'll volunteer. They are bearded, with turbans and live in Pakistan. Good enough? ;)

What a waste of cash. You don't see Pakistan offering that kind of money for every soldier killed on their side. They'd be bankrupt quite quickly :(

nrx, I have been following your posts with interest, as you are in a position to have a fairly informed viewpoint (esp. with respect to Pakistan and things happening there). I think in general the case was made that Afghanistan under Taliban leadership had become a state supporter of, or at least harborer of terrorist groups (Al Qaeda, esp.) so capture of OBL is a prime mission but it is not the only mission, nor the reason for the war. I simply think it is interesting that the same people who scream "LIE!" when the CIA believes Saddam had WMD's or that Iran's purposes might be less than respectable...then listen to a supposed tape of OBL, and assume it to be gospel because "well, the CIA verified it". Perhaps I'm the only one who sees humor (albeit tragic) in this.


If they are not dead they are on a list. Perhaps they are in Guantanamo...but don't worry if they are,
they'll be tried by people who think they are simply poor farmers fighting an evil invader...and released.

John P.

I agree, John. As Bush said, "there's time for politics". It's all politics. I enjoy discussing things with you as you question things. Whenever I mention Ahmedinejad, I instantly get this "wiped off the map" crap. He never said that. He wants Israel to vanish but that's because he clearly sees them as being at the source of the conflict and terrorists of Palestinians. Which is true! Wanting them to vanish does not mean that he'd nuke them.

I'm not so sure...
While his quote might not have been "wiped off the map", you are correct in calling me out on this, his intent is ambiguous enough to make one nervous. I don't speak Farsi, either, which compounds things...but.... Add in the speed with which he is increasing his nuclear purification (for peaceful purposes) and the (claimed at least) successful launch of a satellite...say that he already has technology to reach MUCH farther than people previously thought, and while his Manhattan project may indeed be for peaceful purposes, I'm not against holding a gun on him just to make him stay honest. If he DOES indeed wish to destroy another nation, or bring the coming of the Last Imam, or some such (sorry, I'm not as well versed in Islam as others here) then I would rather him die a martyr than innocents somewhere else whose only crime was being alive in an area that spited Ahmadinejad in particular.

John P.

He has made the point that other countries are allowed to pursue nuclear energy. We can't indict people based on suspicion unless there are compelling mitigating factors which demand close scrutiny and may raise the level of proof.

Eminent Farsi experts were drafted in to analyse that speech. Their conclusions were unanimous. Vanishing was mentioned.

While he is correct that other countries did do this, I have a few objections. First, I understand he was ONLY interested in methods which would result in him having weapons grade plutonium, and is doing so on an almost frantic scale ominously coinciding with increases in missile technology...it looks bad. Would you allow an arsonist to have a book of matches-he claims he only intends to build a cooking fire, and not burn down your house (as he's told his friends) but insists that you give him the matches and leave him alone, rather than watch him.....?

This man does not need nuclear matches; my understanding was he was offered technology that would not produce weapons grade material...and refused it. Am I incorrect on this?

John P.

Yes, I would allow an arsonist to have a box of matches. As long as all the matches had been struck :)

I think you are right but those stories, to my knowledge, were unsubstantiated and likely corroborated only by Neocon hawks.

The bottom line is, as we both know, second guessing. You know, if there is a realistic prospect that Iran is pursuing this line which they allegedly were years ago, why let them continue to develop and then impose sanctions?? Iran will employ stalling tactics at critical moments. Well, if they were smart they would.

True Indeed. Pakistan as a nation state was created through a political and democratic process with no violet struggle however the consequent lines were controversial and arbitrary leading to confusion and mass chaos which resulted in a death of a million and the later India Pakistan conflict which is alive to this day. Similarly on the western front, the lines were again random as pointed out by plk123. Though the line was accepted by Afghanistan in 1893 as an agreement with the British, they disputed its validity in 1949 claiming that since British India does not exist anymore therefore the borders drawn by Britain also cease to exist, this dispute also continues till the present day.

There is a very simple solution which could have taken Pakistan completely out of the War on Terror picture and that is to fence the border. But since Afghanistan does not accept the border, therefore any fencing effort is out of question for them. As of today, the border exists as a line drawn with limestone and to the locals, this line carries no significance. On top of that Pakistan is blamed for not being able to keep an eye on a 2600 km chalk line.

_______________________

@JohnP
Thanks for your interest mate. Actually what I meant by "verified by CIA" was that its a matter of personal opinion depending on if you choose to trust CIA or not. Personally, CIA verification is not enough for me to believe but also just because it has been verified by CIA doesn't necessarily mean that obl is a dead meat. I generally take the opinions of intelligence agencies with a pinch of salt and its not just CIA. Intelligence agencies no matter where they belong, present, fabricate or distort the facts as they see fit, its their job.

As for the case that Bush Administration built up, it hasn't been fruitful yet. Supporting terrorist activities and actually carrying them out is two different things. Many other fascist regimes like Taliban are accused of harboring terrorists however we should have learned from the history that the solution is not to eliminate the regime but addressing the underlying concerns. Its been seven years since WoT began and still it just took Bush administration three weeks after 9/11 to attack Afghanistan. As far as i remember, Taliban had some terms and conditions and if the process had been given more time, probably something acceptable to both sides would've come out. Afterall, they are considering the dialogue option once again after seven years.

___________________________________________

As for Iran, I have no doubt that there program is not peaceful. However nuclear weapons itself is a tricky question. On one hand, these weapons are evil no doubt, on the other hand they provide a balance of power. In IndoPak case for example, there have been more than one occasions after 1998 (the nuclear testing year) when tension were high enough to guarantee an all out war and it didn't happen. When these countries didn't have nuclear weapons, they fought three full scale wars. So in a way WMD's also suggest a war protection mechanism. Take the cold war, the conflicts were big enough for a direct confrontation between Soviets and US leading to a third world war, however the actual war turned out to be a proxy event which led to the demise of Soviet Union without them exercising the nuclear option. So in my opinion, in case of Iran the question is not that if there program is peaceful or not but its about their real purpose. Do they want a balance of power in the region so that they can talk with Israel on equal terms or is it that they plan to wipe out whole middle east since a nuke won't just stay in Israel.

I favour the latter, bargaining power. What has happened though is that people have been told that their possessing a nuke could be detrimental and they mustn't procure one. I outlined just a couple of ways that Ahmedinejad tripped himself up. America also isn't free from that. They let us believe that Saddam had WMD's for God knows how long. Over a decade likely. So, if he can possess them and be a worse tyrant than Ahmedinejad (Ammy) which, let's face it, he was, then Ammy has his excuse.

that's an act of war though. if poland trespasses Pakistan it will all blow up even more.


you're way jumping to conclusions. what US has been doing at gitmo is just beyond words.


how could they really. those mountains are not fencable. you know that. i think all the borders in the region seem rather meaningless. do you think tajiks apply for passports or visas when they travel to hindu kush or karakoram? lol


btw. it's year 1430 over there.

How is that an act of war? It's about exacting revenge for a needless and brutal attack. Would you rather wrongs were left unpunished?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GROM here. Given the ineptitude of the Pakistani authorities, they will likely acquiesce and grant GROM passage in. I don't see why they object so much, are they really interested in fighting this war? Their casualty count would suggest so.

that the truth hurts and that the brits are really at fault for most of this as explained on the last couple of pages before this post.


trespassing on other sovereign lands will be seen as an act of aggression, no?


what? there is no freaking way in hell pakistan will grant grom a passage and vengeance permit. NO FREAKING WAY! have they let the americans in?

as to why, it's a long and in depth study. have fun. :)

pakistan has a higher casualty number in this war on noun/idea then the rest of the coalition put together.