Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

there were a lot of people detained in other way there.


no, no, no man. it's kind of opposite to what you said actually. making them illegal combatants was a way for shruco to get around the geneva conventions man. this is mainly the reason why gitmo is such a disgrace.


some but many are in the "secret" prisons in PL and I and who knows where else.


the point is that NO ONE should be excluded if USA's to have moral ground.. which USA lost long, long time ago..


i called it like i see it. shoddy work is shoddy work. i am thinking this is one of those investigations where i don't care how much it costs.. i want the whole truth. otherwise it leads to people getting killed needlessly and US bombing willy nilly whomever.


you need to sit down and read up on this then. this is the main issue why america is pretty much hated around the globe. find out why because continuing being ignorant about this isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

their actions are reactions actually. find out to what.


not really ridiculous at all...

freakingnews.com/pictures/1000/Terror-Warning-Levels--1296.jpg

we weren't supposed to let them win, remember? booh.. lol

What? I am the ignorant one? Wrong. I am the last person on this forum, probably, who would ever invade another country or terrorize. Why can't everyone be like me?

Hatestein, are you mad again??

you seem to support it at least.

the ignorance statement i surely meant in general because the level of ignorance in the US is astounding. you admit to not having some lack of knowledge in this matter so start exploring the subject/s in greater depth. it's a subject we'll have to deal with for a long time to come, i feel, unfortunately.

I don't support terrorism or invading other countries. If someone attacks your country I believe the one being attacked has the right to defend themselves and the one doing the attacking should be stopped.

This is why I question the wisdom of the US going into Iraq.
If you are refering to Israel, I have no problem with that country. One thing that anyone can figure out just using common sense: jews cannot possibly control the world. Think about China. How are jews in Israel going to control China? It's impossible! What about Russia? Where's common sense?

As for exploring the issue, it really is pointless because no one is going to be swayed by my opinions on it. They are hellbent on destroying one another they are not going to listen to me. It's up to governments to stablize populations.

Ok...and which of the ones you refer to were not involved in a terror cell or related activities? If they weren't captured in combat, how do you propose to apply Geneva conventions, (which apply specifically to warfare) at any rate?


Not true. Originally, they were simply "terrorist detainees" however uproar from people such as yourself demanding they get rights guaranteed combatants, (such as were respected for captured Iraqi Army )under the Geneva conventions both prior to and after capture...led to the new term. Terrorists are specifically excluded from protection...therefore people did not want a spade called a spade otherwise "no holds barred" is completely within the realm of the allowable.


Back this up please? or is this just more sensational sounding information you somehow "know"?


What you think should or should not be in the Geneva conventions...has nothing to do with what is actually IN them. They simply do NOT apply to everyone, with certain people specifically omitted. And honestly, since because of rumors and hints and the like you believe the high ground was lost "long ago" then why should we even try? There is no pleasing people such as yourself. I think it is folly even to try.

Personally, I think known terrorists should be shot on sight rather than captured, it prevents people like you from fretting over what you *think* might be happening to the captured terrorists. You obviously value their comfort over the lives of their victims, and your self important sense that you have the moral high ground will not be bothered when innocent people are butchered in a Baghdad basement, because nobody asked the murderer's friend already in captivity. You have no clue, and are just blinded by what you THINK you know. Believe what you want, but believing isn't knowing.


Just because you or some other nutjob thinks, "oooh there's a conspiracy" because you disagree with the findings of the investigation...does not mean there should be another one, nor that there was "shoddy work". "I don't care how much it costs" doesn't sound like someone who is paying for it themselves...If you want to fund one from your private income and have something conclusive that counters the official findings...by all means, submit it to the authorities.

Otherwise, it is ridiculous to chase every single grassy knoll theory....just because someone like yourself believes everything we do is evil. You obviously have only considered one possible side of the coin, but to not examine the other side before making judgement borders on stupidity. It is far easier to pass on one's suspicions (we used to call it "gossip") than it is to wait until all the information is before making one's mind.


You speak of ignorance, yet you claim knowledge about military tactics, strategy, etc. assuming people go around "bombing willy-nilly". This is a hypocritical statement. The fact is you are ignorant yourself, in this regard, but post as if you somehow "know" what is being done or is not. You point at all the ignorance you assume is in the U.S. ...but it is written all through your own posts. Unless, by "ignorance" are you referring to people who disagree with you? either way I see it, your statements are off the mark.

John P.

if you vote, you ought to know how you want the gov to represent you. US has not been dealing with the greater middle east properly. imho.


it was a huge blunder. we should have concentrated on obl and his ilk.


i believe in many cases it was simply pure kidnapping by the US.


look it up homesteak. you're WRONG. geneva conventions mandate some kind of court proceedings.. how many gitmo inmates have seen a judge?

shrubbery was trying to avoid having to deal with the conventions man.. thus the newest term. this gets them out of having to follow anything. it escapes american courts.. this is exactly how it's been until now, not the other way around.


google. pretty easy to find who's been sitting in one of those, in PL specifically.


geneva conventions don't exclude anyone man.


is this the winning american attitude? we're all screwed if that the way general public think. but since Obama won, i think not.


oh that civil.


and you just want to go murder randomly? i want the truth not a bunch of BS.


are you in the pictures from abu ghrabi?


so you are content with being a sheep? there are plenty holes in the 9/11 "investigation" and for the money that was spent i'd think you'd also expect the whole truth and not the crap we got. i am not after a different result.. i just want the WHOLE truth.. not just some stuff that fit into the old president's agenda.


you seem clueless.. i implore you to educate yourself on this topic. it's sad to see the USA continuing making blunders that unfortunately also adversely effect others.

Plk,
You must put some of the responsibility on the people ruling the countries in the middle east. One problem is: we all want to scapegoat one another. We want to say: these people did it...those people over there they are to blame.

You have to take responsibility for how you contribute to your own problems. If your government is a crappy, corrupt one, YOU have to admit that. YOU cannot blame the world for it or anyone else.

Like, for instance, people want to blame US or infidels for terrorism. Think about it. What if suddenly every radical banded together and said "You know this isn't working for us. We are ready to be moderate, to cooperate, to work for the betterment of our people and the human race. We want a better future. We don't want any more random killings or destruction. We have decided to stop." What would happen then?

Do you know that if the Taliban were limited to ruling Afghanistan and not training terrorists to go out and kill people no one would care?

I'll tell Nelson Mandela to watch his back then.

The scum who killed the Polish engineer are , i am sure living on borrowed time , and somebody will find them , and deal with them.....More than likely it won,t make the news , but for sure they won,t get away with it...

You "believe" in many cases...oh I see. That makes all the difference.


Who says none have? not to mention, again, if all these were "kidnapped" as you say, how do laws of combat (e.g. Geneva conventions) have anything to do with them. They only apply if these people were captured in conflict. Since you are implying they were not...what would you suggest? You can't have it both ways


No...you made the accusation, you provide the evidence. I can claim all sorts of things about you or your country...that doesn't mean it is true. I can parade people in front of you that claim they were "experimented on" by "space aliens" also. Proving it, and what they allege happened and by who...is a lot more difficult. However, I keep an open mind...feel free to enlighten me here.


You really ARE an interesting one. Yes, they do. Specifically, even.


Well obviously this was a rhetorical question, but you apparently were too blinded by your own opinions to catch it. Point is, you are essentially arguing to let people do whatever they will to us, our countrymen, and our allies, (and I mean to civilians) with impunity, for fear of what, offending the terrorists sensibilities? Scaring them? Please.


Shot on sight. War and "civil" do not belong in the same sentence. Known terrorists...can either be allowed to ply their trade, as it is obvious you wish to allow, captured, but never asked any questions (as you wish for ones already in captivity), or they can simply be killed.

Which, incidentally, violates no laws, and prevents people such as yourself from wringing their hands.

It's easy to point the finger, Plk, but realise when you do, that the other three are pointed back at you.


Again, Plk, when has anyone on this thread (me or anyone else) advocated random murder? I've not seen it.
However, do you think you could swallow the truth, even if it did not agree with your preconceived notions? I have my doubts, but I'm not going to assume it beyond your capability. I think you will just continue to overlook the truth, while demanding a "new" truth that agrees with your suspicions, for what, so you can go, "Ahah, I knew it!"?

If you know all these things you accuse people of plk, then go to the authorities, otherwise you are an accomplice. If you only "suspect" then that is different, now, isn't it.


What the hell are you talking about, plk....those people are in prison. I'm also not a guard. I have been privy to rescue missions, however, and the location of the would be decapitee, as it were, was sometimes given up by someone already in custody. But you seem offended that the information was gotten because, what, an already known terrorist, had to listen to bad music for a day or two?

Or if it's waterboarding specifically you are worried about so much, which one of the different passengers out of the UK or wherever...would you rather die, just to make one guy more comfortable? Which one? I implore you to call their families and tell them you would prefer their loved one die, than worry someone was mean to a terrorist


Sure...
Just because it was a two year long election campaign and EVERYTHING was accused of being "the Presidents agenda" or "the administration's fault" if it was perceived negatively, does NOT mean it was an incorrect investigation. You simply do not like the results, and want more money spent on it. To which I implore you, spend all of YOURS you want.


Look who's talking plk. You put words where there are none, you invent agendas where none exist, then you pretend to know anything at all about the war (you don't) but you call me clueless because I disagree with you. Is that it, in a nutshell? Of course the US makes blunders, so does every nation, but you continue to imply the US has some evil purpose in every post you discuss this and it tires me. You've been spitting accusations since I've been on this board (and probably before) but just because someone like myself disagrees, or investigations disagree, with your preconceived notion, does not necessarily mean we are "clueless". It just means you might be wrong, too. Don't take it so personal...its not like I'm accusing YOU of being a murderer, or being mean to terrorists, after all, and being wrong happens to everybody.


Give me a break. You too? Learn to read, then when you can argue with a semblance of logic, get back to me. Mandela, last I heard, hasn't been in any videos beheading anyone, hasn't hijacked any airplanes, or what not. He has been accused of being a rebel and a communist and all sorts of other things, but that's different, a bit. Still, great job on your one liner.

John P.

plk, how do you think the US should deal with the middle east? Do you know, in Saudi Arabia, a convicted terrorist found guilty is beheaded? Should the US be more like the Saudis?

Did you see the guy who threw the shoe at President Bush in Iraq? Do you know he was beaten up by the Iraqi cops, suffered some broken ribs?

War on Terror without targetting the Saudis, LOL

I feel your sentiments here, Seanus, but while there are likely many terrorists who got their indoctrination from Saudi originated sources, and some may themselves be Saudi, the Saudi government is officially against the terrorists, even if it does not seem they are wholeheartedly into it. Unfortunately in some places the terrorists are seen as almost a "Robin Hood" type of character, taking the fight to the Infidel so to speak...or this is my perception, at least...and the government's official stance, and what the people do...do not always mesh. It is also likely, that like others who romanticize these or other groups which operate outside the law, do not actually have contact with what REALLY happens. People still walk around wearing Che Guevarra shirts, after all...but have no concept of the truly wretched murderer that the man really was. He is a symbol.

Likewise, OBL to some in Saudi, for instance. These people are idolized in various schools mosques etc as heroes, martyrs, etc...so even if the government bans it, public opinion may well be different.

Just my thoughts.

John P.

Oh but it does, John. That would be murder. Killing someone you think is a terrorist because his eyes are too close together or something simply won't fly in court, which is why the authorities an Gitmo don't want the inmates' trials to be handled by civilian lawyers, even though they might have been 'rendered' off the streets in some foreign capital and tortured for information thay don't have.

The West long ago lost the moral high ground to the 'terrorists' by using the sam tactics. Or was it the terrorists who started using the same tactics as western governments?

I bet a few security guys got the sack over that....he should have been nailed before the shoe left his hand......

This is true...if you count only those not in combat zones. And even THOSE are not protected by Geneva conventions but by other laws. however considering my viewpoint I am ONLY going to meet these people in direct combat. Previously the goal has always been capture, but I think instead of risking peoples necks to capture someone we are not allowed to get information from...makes no sense. And, by the way, I did say known terrorists at any rate.


You are speculating here, but have nothing to back this up-the reason I believe there is resistance to this, is that the inmates are not US citizens, and therefore are not subject to its laws, etc etc. They have already demanded treatment as POWs...so now the tune changes.


if this is found to be the case it is taken into account. Something you would know if you kept up on your news...


So says you. Chechens were beheading Russians, and OBL/ AQ were blowing up buildings before the US captured ANY of them. Somehow, I don't think sawing someone's head off or crashing an airliner into 3500 civilians intentionally...is in the same category as taking a known guilty person, making him uncomfortable but not physically harming him, to find out who else was in on the plot or when it is supposed to happen, other than perhaps neither are pleasant.

John P.

Nelson Mandela was a known terrorist.


Known by who? Please tell.

I was making the point that the notion of a terrorist is totally subjective. But you would have understood that if you weren't such a simpleton.

As you were.

Part of the semetic culture is martyrdom. Christianity orginates in the semetics and has many martyrs as well.
Key components to semetic culture:
passion
martyrdom
devotion to God
messiahs
prophets
strict adherence to the law

Then you have a lot to learn about this subject. I advise you to look up what the criteria for the Catholic to become martyr is.

Oh I do. How about Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr? A Muslim priest who was pulled off a Milan street one day by a bunch of CIA goons and flown to Egypt to be tortured for four years. John. I know that Milan's football stadium can get a bit rough sometimes but you expect me to believe that Milan is a 'war zone' an he is an 'enemy combatant'? Of course not. What gives the US the right to enter someone else's country and kidnap innocent people?


I'm sure they have also quite stongly demanded a trial, to be released, to know the charges against them and the right to legal counsel and been denied so all things considered it's a start that the authorities have deigned to treat them as POWs. Very good of them.


Perhaps you should change your story a little. We are not watching an episode of 24 here. The reality of torture is that a man who someone might think is possibly guilty is taken off the street and viciously tortured for months or years to surrender information he might, or more probably might not, have. Waterboarding is a form of torture by the way - don't try to pass that off as 'an uncomfortable procedure' where people are virtually drowned.

As for the crimes of terrorists, perhaps you should look at the track record of the US and its allies in their dealings with other countries.

krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html

What I don't get about this is that everyone is feeling sorry for this idiot!!!
He put himself in the situation and knew the consequences, he wasn't on some moral crusade to do good for the country he was there for monetary gain and lost.

I work for the National Veterinary Institute in Pułway and three of their Vets were working in Kabal trying to setup a research facility in June 2008, but were advised to go home because of the dangers as was Piotr Stanczak.

This may sound hard but if you stick your head in the lions jaws, what can you expect?

Oh yes yes, all done in secret by "CIA goons" who of course presented credentials to him, did unspeakable things for YEARS, then of course released him....yeah right, but hey if YOU believe it...


Not so. But believe whatever you want. Captured on the battlefield or in a raid of a "kill house" somewhere is not the same thing as if your local constabulary picked them up for disorderly conduct at the local bar. You are applying citizens rights to people captured in battle. The one's not captured in battle...oddly enough do not want to face justice as provided by their OWN countries, as a general rule, but hey, they aren't citizens of the U.S...


You are a coolaid drinker aren't you. You have no idea what may or may not occur here, but think you do. People alledge many things, but often just as often as the things you alledge about us, they are lies. Intelligence is seldom useful after the length of time you propose, other than to give locations of people, or perhaps to verify identities etc. Your vision of reality is flawed I think.


Oh, the old, "its ok for people to behead people, because I know somebody else who is also mean" defense.
Nice.

John P

If you are a catholic you cannot reject semetic culture. My friend, it is a huge part of being a catholic. IT IS THE ROOTS OF CATHOLICISM.

These early martyrs were not much different from modern islamic martyrs. It's a part of the culture.

Oh? Who was crying a moment ago about a few dead stockbrokers? Who was pulling numbers of corpses out of their hat to show how evil people are? Try looking at the link I posted to see who the biggest murderers are and we'll talk about this again. The right hand column shows the number of dead attributable to US foreign policy. Tens, hundreds of thousands of men women and children. And you're waving a handful of beheadings at me? Pfah.


The New york Times believed it. Amnesty International believed it. The telegraph believed it. Go ask them if you don't believe me.


Exactly what anyone would say to you.

Like I said go and read up on the subject, only the name “martyr” is the same, hence your confusion.

I agree with ukpolska. He put himself in the lion's den. What else did he expect?

I still think it's part of the culture. What other cultures have so many martyrs, for whatever reason? It's hard to put into words. I believe martyrdom is part of the overall semetic culture. This feeling of martyrdom...regardless of why the person is martyred or the circumstances surrounding it. The end result is the same. A sense of martydom exists. My death is not in vain I have suffered and died for something much greater than my small, petty life both my life and death will be significant to my people. Doesn't matter if the sentiment is there before or posthumously.

For Christian a martyr is a believer who is called to be a witness for his or her religious belief and on account of this witness endures suffering or death. Like I said you have a lot to learn so please make a little bit of effort to understand the term and its implication before comparing it to your own set of beliefs where besides the common name they are not even close to mean the same thing.

It's not my own set of beliefs, it's history. Did you know that in Judiasm there are many messiahs? It is also a part of the culture, this sense of the messiah, which Jesus Christ was, of course. The idea being the messiah will embody God and save my people. Jesus as the messiah showed everyone that we can all be saved by the same God through Him.