Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / News  % width 127

EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ?


Daisy 3 | 1,227  
12 Dec 2008 /  #91
EU democracy, if you don't get the result you want first time around, make them vote again.....it's a fekkin farce
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
12 Dec 2008 /  #92
it's a fekkin farce

It does appear that way.
I will be back in Ireland soon enough and get all the juicy story.
But it is pathetically scandalis.

I do think that our freedom is being taken from us bit by bit, minute to minute.
Daisy 3 | 1,227  
12 Dec 2008 /  #93
I do think that our freedom is being taken from us bit by bit, minute to minute.

tell me about it, I work in the Civil Service and we are being screwed down all the time. Private Eye recently ran an article on our Chief Executive, management were outraged that we found it funny and tried to stop us from reading it. They are monitoring our internet and email usage so closely now, it can take me anything up to 5 minutes just to open an email.
moonlight 6 | 103  
12 Dec 2008 /  #94
I feel that talk about a second vote has been timed very well by our sneeky governement..... I think there is a lot of feeling out there that we need to keep on the "good side of EU" now that we are consumed by recession etc etc......
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
12 Dec 2008 /  #95
management were outraged that we found it funny and tried to stop us from reading it.

But surley you can just read it after work anyway?

They are monitoring our internet and email usage so closely now, it can take me anything up to 5 minutes just to open an email.

It sounds like a prison.

I think there is a lot of feeling out there that we need to keep on the "good side of EU" now that we are consumed by recession etc etc......

That is exactly what i was thinking and i would certainly not put it past the government.
Don't bite the hand that's fed you!.
I wonder if Ireland will get another long gobbledygook document through the doors or will they just use the first one again.

It is terrible, really terrible, how can it call itself democratic?
Daisy 3 | 1,227  
12 Dec 2008 /  #96
But surley you can just read it after work anyway?

oh yes, but the message was "we can't have staff reading this kind of thing it's disgraceful" belive me they'd stop us if they could

how can it call itself democratic?

it can't
moonlight 6 | 103  
12 Dec 2008 /  #97
I work in Local Government and I am sooooo p*ssed off!!! Civil Servants (hate that word) are used as an excuse for almost everything and now it seems we are the biggest issue when it comes to Governement Spending.... I have been verbally abused by so many members of the public, who seem to think it is their given right to say whatever they like because I am employed by the Government..... yes my job is secure but my working life is far from perfect!

Anyway my point is that a high percentage of people who will vote can be easily swayed to vote Yes, now that such a negative atmosphere has been created. The Government, Media will continue to point out all that is negative in the Country at present...and people will jump on the band wagon...yes we are in recession, yes it is shit but recession is one of the best times take advantage of opportunities....why is our Government not focusing on what CAN be achieved??? It is because a positive, reassured Ireland will not vote YES.
Daisy 3 | 1,227  
12 Dec 2008 /  #99
I work in Local Government and I am sooooo p*ssed off!!! Civil Servants (hate that word) are used as an excuse for almost everything and now it seems we are the biggest issue when it comes to Governement Spending....

I work in central government and totally agree......the problem is we get tarred with the same brush as the senior civil servants, if only I earned as much as those fat cats at the top wasted...but people just lump us all together

The Government, Media will continue to point out all that is negative in the Country at present...and people will jump on the band wagon...yes we are in recession, yes it is shit but recession is one of the best times take advantage of opportunities

that goes for any Government, all you ever get is spin and lies :(
lesser 4 | 1,311  
13 Dec 2008 /  #100
EU democracy

Ahh! Oxymoron :)

I have just heard on the news that Ireland will be holding a second referendum for the Lisbon treaty next year, they are expecting a YES vote this time.

How would you comment attitude of Mr Ireland (known as ' Mr Crowley' in some circles)? Read carefully.
indymedia.ie/article/90105

I feel that talk about a second vote has been timed very well by our sneeky governement.....

I have a bad news for you, this talk was not timed by Irish government. They just realize orders from Brussels.

Yesterday, 08:28 Report #100

I work in Local Government and I am sooooo p*ssed off!!! Civil Servants (hate that word) are used as an excuse for almost everything and now it seems we are the biggest issue when it comes to Governement Spending.... I have been verbally abused by so many members of the public, who seem to think it is their given right to say whatever they like because I am employed by the Government..... yes my job is secure but my working life is far from perfect!

If you start new thread and post this, I could help you to understand this issue. I don't want to steal nice EU bashing thread.
Babinich 1 | 455  
13 Dec 2008 /  #101
The Government, Media will continue to point out all that is negative in the Country at present...

why is our Government not focusing on what CAN be achieved??? It is because a positive, reassured Ireland will not vote YES.

There you have it: another sterling example of the power of information. Those who have disseminative capabilities hold great power over the masses.

Moonlight: Is this change of heart in Ireland nothing more than a modern day arm twisting?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
13 Dec 2008 /  #102
Lesser, although cynical (like me), is right on the money. If the EU is the model of democracy, I'm Barrack Obama. Having a second referendum after some rehashing and sprucing up is just not on. What sweeteners have been added? Will Ireland be offered more than the excess trimmings and get some meat this time?
moonlight 6 | 103  
15 Dec 2008 /  #103
Is this change of heart in Ireland nothing more than a modern day arm twisting?

I think the reason for a No vote the first time round was that most people felt Ireland was getting a bad deal..... and did we really need europe???? for most people the word recession only referred to the past....

Now jobs are being lost and its all grim. The Governments job will be much easier to secure a Yes vote. We are a fickle lot...on a different topic... a woman at work made a comment about the contaminated pork going to waste, and how it would be a good idea to send it to the 3rd World, we dont want to eat it but its ok for someone else....
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
15 Dec 2008 /  #104
how it would be a good idea to send it to the 3rd World, we dont want to eat it but its ok for someone else

I hope this woman is not a brain surgeon or in any job that requires brains.
Or humanitarian work, actually i can't think what kind of job she must be doing?.
Babinich 1 | 455  
16 Dec 2008 /  #105
Now jobs are being lost and its all grim. The Governments job will be much easier to secure a Yes vote. We are a fickle lot...

I suspect that the EUdid a great job of throttling the self preservation instinct.

The lack of self confidence can lead people or nations to do the silliest of things.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
20 Dec 2008 /  #106
Good 'debate' here:


SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
20 Dec 2008 /  #107
Very interesting.

It is awful that other countries do not even have an election.
I understand that not every single thing can be voted on but something like the Lisbon treaty is just too big.

I understand by your avatar Lesser that you do not like the EU.
I am pro EU but ONLY if it is democratic.

I really hope Ireland vote with an even bigger NO vote this time because you can not keep having a vote until you get the answer you want.

This is a very important time in Europes history.
I think it can work but we must be very ver careful.
We can learn from our history what we do not want to happen.

The reason why Ireland can vote is because in Easter 1916 there was a rising against the British who were occupying our country.
Our constitution was read out on the steps of he General Post Office, you can still see th bullet holes on the building.
Our constiution gives us the right to control our country, something we fought hard for.
"the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies."
I am proud to be from the |Republic of Ireland and I do not want Ireland to be occupied again.
Now in 2008/9 we are seeing that our rights are not being respected.

I woud really like to know how and why, the other 26 countries in EU could not vote?

The E.U must be fully democratic to work, other wise I can only imagine the worst things.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
21 Dec 2008 /  #108
People should vote on such matters that they are able understand. This is clearly regional politics where distance between ruling elites and people is small. While government should have very limited competences (defence, foreign policy), should be nearly excluded from the regional politics.

The EU was created by people with certain views (leftist elitists) that wont let others to change general directions. I don't believe that the EU could be reformed (unlike president Klaus), thus my opposition. Eurocrats want to build an empire (according to Barroso words) while I think that empires are good only for ruling establishment and not for the people in general. Soviet Union was an empire as well.

While I stand for regionalism, more autonomy from central government, Brussels pushing pan-European centralization of power. While I want to offer people in regions an opportunity to run their life, Brussels building their centrally planned Animal Farm.

I woud really like to know how and why, the other 26 countries in EU could not vote?

I have hear several times that this would be too much of risk to let people to vote. Pure democrats claim so. :) They are so influential because people in general don't care about democracy, this forum might be good example. How many posters share your views? Five fingers would be enough to count all of them.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
22 Dec 2008 /  #109
How about 2 fingers, lesser? ;) That'd be a sign for some Eurocrats
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
23 Dec 2008 /  #110
Eurocrats

What do you make of all this Seanus?

I have to get more information about the next Lisbon treaty to have an opinion.
But it does not look well, having to vote until the E.U. get the result they want but I will try to be open ;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Dec 2008 /  #111
Well, like other people, I believe they have tripped themselves up. The current set-up yielded results which were not to their liking, tough titties I say. Yes, my analysis is rather superficial here but the bottom line is that they paid the price. I don't know if the current sweeteners on offer are sufficient to placate the masses and tip the balance.

I also haven't read too much on the Lisbon Treaty but one thing is for sure, it'll have more gloss on it than Posh Spice.
Crow 146 | 9,097  
23 Dec 2008 /  #112
EU constitution


szarlotka 8 | 2,209  
23 Dec 2008 /  #113
Watch out - bird poo incoming
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Dec 2008 /  #114
And not even holy sh*t at that ;)
moonlight 6 | 103  
23 Dec 2008 /  #115
First I want to say I am pro EU and I voted yes last time round...

but I also see both sides. I feel that the powers that be, have placed blame on Ireland in holding up the progress and reform of the EU and painted the country in a bad light! Not true... we have excerised our democratic right... some of the changes and adjustments to the Treaty can only improve it. If it is possible to make these changes it shows that there was room for improvement.... A lot more countries would probably have voted No if they had been given the choice. So maybe Ireland has done every citizen of the EU a favour rejecting this Treaty and forcing it to be looked at more closly.

Change has to happen but it must repect the rights of the people of the EU.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Dec 2008 /  #116
The Irish weren't doing it to snub Brussels. They were unhappy with some of the provisions so used their most sacrosanct of democratic rights, that which allows them to vote.

It encouraged more reflection. The Irish have done well for themselves and the milk offered by the EU was just too sour for their liking. But, like the Murphy's, I hope the EU isn't too bitter.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
23 Dec 2008 /  #117
So maybe Ireland has done every citizen of the EU a favour rejecting this Treaty and forcing it to be looked at more closly.

Change has to happen but it must repect the rights of the people of the EU.

I totally agree with everything you have just written.

most sacrosanct of democratic rights, that which allows them to vote.

This is it though, with the right to vote comes the right to vote "NO".
We will have to see what (if any) changes there will be.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
23 Dec 2008 /  #118
That's what I mean, NO should not be challenged. In the great majority of instances, no means just that.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
23 Dec 2008 /  #119
The only way I can see out of this, is if they change the treaty.
I have a funny feeling that it won't.
There is no Lisbon treaty, it was voted against, instead of "Ireland" voting again on the same treaty, it ought to e the "treaty" that is changed, no?.

Otherwise how can it possibly be a democracy?.
I would be happy if some one came up with an alternative and the next few months should be interesting.

The next vote is on the 2nd October.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859  
16 Aug 2009 /  #120
The next vote is on the 2nd October.

You coming home to exercise your right to vote? You should.

Archives - 2005-2009 / News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ?Archived