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EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ?


Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #61
German is not the lingua franca in the EU...so you haven't read it, right?
You were against it because....
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
14 Jun 2008 /  #62
Hello Bratwurst Boy,

So did you read the treaty yet?
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
14 Jun 2008 /  #63
So did you read the treaty yet?

Mr BB has already said he hasnt read the treaty and I would put my life on it to say none of the Irish that voted have read it either....it was a protests, simply a protest and nothing more!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
14 Jun 2008 /  #64
BB said he did not read it yesterday. I see you have calmed down a bit but are still angry, any way what do you know about Ireand you could put on a stamp
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #65
Hello Bratwurst Boy,

So did you read the treaty yet?

Just the headlines...sounds rather good I must say! To bad that the Irelanders didn't care...and many others too...
I think a re-founding of a new EU alone with people who really care would be the best right now!
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
14 Jun 2008 /  #66
BB, Why do you think people did not care? 53.4 percent of voters, rejected the treaty in Thursday's referendum. Sounds like somebody cared
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #67
Sounds like somebody cared

Cared for what?

Just some highlights of the Treaty of Lisbon: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

Now...for what did they care/not care???
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
14 Jun 2008 /  #68
Bratwurst Boy, A lot of people voted "no" in Ireland, an option the rest of Europe did not even have. I think if Germany's voice was being muffled you'd vote no too?

People care about what is happening and going to happen with their futures.
Of course there are good points to the treaty and I have started to read the bloody thing now and of course you have valid points. A general tightening up of the E.U. and enabling more power.

A lot!

you are not my type.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #69
and I have started to read the bloody thing now

*snicker*

Me too...:)
Kev A 2 | 64  
14 Jun 2008 /  #70
SB don't u just love the part time Irish, they leave the country or have .01 % of Irish genes in them or worse still, they bump into one in the street and all of a sudden they have this wonderful insight into the Irish psyche, like I said before, the " lazy", "Idle", and "useless" Tags given to Irish were simply that, given to them, this vote indicates that we are long past being pushed headlong into a situation neither we nor the rest of Europe have the slightest understanding of.

I am sure there was a degree of truth in both the no camp and the yes camps but surely it would have been resolved had it been written in such a way that everyone could have understood it without the need for a gaggle of Lawyers and other professionals to explain it.

I will say, however, that the irish are reluctant to make decisions without understanding the facts and unless they are nearly 100 % sure there are no Sharks in the water they just won't jump in, they, we, are sceptics at heart but when we are fairly sure of a decent outcome we will go for it full speed ahead.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
14 Jun 2008 /  #71
German is not the lingua franca in the EU...so you haven't read it, right?

I meant your article from Spiegel...

I read the most interesting parts of Lisbon Treaty and how it differ from euro-constitution. Some British anti-EU group made such interesting comparison, article after article. This is available online if anybody here is interested.

In fact this treaty is unreadable because it often refers to some other documents. In my thread about the EU I posted quotes from eurocrats themselves admitting that they intentionally wrote this treaty in this and not other way.

You were against it because....

You are not a newbie in this forum, you read many my posts about this topic. Once you even refused to discuss these issues when I made such offer to you.

Generally this document gives more competences to Brussels bureaucracy on the cost of European countries. While this should be other way around, countries should resign from interventionism in many areas of public life and surrender many competences to its regions. Brussels advocating centralization of power, this is nature of every bureaucratic constructions. One could think that this should be common knowledge in our times that people in the region know better how to resolve their problems than some central authorities. The latter always claims that they know one perfect solution how to resolve problems all over the world. They are simply liars, whether they are Soviets or eurocrats, it doesn't really matter. Such people are in fact far from real issues bothering people in different parts of our continent. Like communists they try to "force" reality to fit to their theories.

I would love to strip regime in Warsaw from a possibility to interfere in affairs of my region/city. I consider them completely incompetent and you say that those donkeys should co-decide about fate of all Europe?? hahaha

Now...for what did they care/not care???

This is exactly the problem with socialists, they stick their noses everywhere and impose solutions that they consider to be the best on every each individual. What is more they force those individuals to finance politics that those people oppose.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
14 Jun 2008 /  #72
The idea of a referendum in a democratic system is that it may turn out to be accepted or refused. We should be happy that Ireland did make a decision of their own despite the whole pro-european propaganda

Only thing is, EU operates this way: If a country votes NO as did France and Holland, EU says, 'Well, they voted No because they weren't informed; we will have another vote after we launch a massive media campaign, and then they will see the light'...Portuguese people, when polled, were against EU, but the legislature voted to go along with EU Constitution/treaties anyway...the EU is just another self-perpetuating bureaucracy designed to siphon off tax-payers money...As for Ireland, they have had a big influx of African and other immigrants, and maybe they fear losing their national identity...they have a history of being forced to kow-tow to big money boys, i.e. the British...maybe they are just tired of 'political correctness', another name for communism...after all, you can't even smoke in an Irish bar anymore....many little things build up.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
14 Jun 2008 /  #73
This is available online if anybody here is interested.

I am interested, have you a link or something?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
14 Jun 2008 /  #74
I am interested

The Lisbon Treaty and the European Constitution: A side-by-side comparison

openeurope.org.uk/research/comparative.pdf
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #75
It was once very much clearer and shorter...but the watering down and the need to put it that way that EVERYBODY would agree made it misty and more unclear, not mention that important things got left out...thanks to the NO voters and the need for an unanimous consent!

7 years of discussion and re-wording and re-writing ought to do things like that...
The most minimal common consent you wanted? You got it...don't complain now!

PS: I prefer the Wiki short version...
lesser 4 | 1,311  
14 Jun 2008 /  #76
not mention that important things got left out..

Yeah like a flag that as everybody know "never existed before". Eurocrats say that flag was removed and we witness this flag everywhere anyway. They consider people to be total morons, they think that they can say something and do opposite.

What important thing was really removed? And for who this is so important? CXlick the link that I provided to check out yourself that this is almost exactly the same document.

7 years of discussion and re-wording and re-writing ought to do things like that...
The most minimal common consent you wanted? You got it...don't complain now!

Sorry but i never wanted such document to be created. How they write about the same things, this the case of second importance. Beside of that, what you call short? American constitution is short, what they want to impose on us is endless tirade of people whom declared a war to common sense. This document must be so long because they calculate from the start that they want to stick their noses in every single detail of our life. Even if accepted, it will be extended in the future. As I have wrote before, this is nature of bureaucracy.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #77
Sorry but i never wanted such document to be created.

Are you pro-EU at all? How do you see the future of Europe?

You like the US constitution? Then why are you so deadset against a constitution for the United States of Europe???

The 55 delegates had a much easier job...we here in Europe must somehow bring 27 totally different nations under one, the same hat - THAT'S WHY this treaty is so long..so winded...often so unclear...so that EVERYBODY get's their say....

I'm all for a core Europe - we would get a shorter, much better treaty/constitution going without having to listen to everyone and his grandma who want to have a say or threatens with veto!

Here an interesting opinion:

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/14/ireland.eu1

...In the longer term, however, the prospects of creating a Europe with a strong voice and distinct leadership are darker this morning than they were yesterday. Sapped of the political will to make bold reforms, an EU of 27 member states could return to a patchwork of ad hoc intergovernmental alliances. If integration by grand constitution is dead, and integration by small treaty in a rut, business will be conducted by smaller groups of countries. This is not a union that will find it easy to accept Turkey as a member, defend its common interests against Russia, or speak with one voice about the Middle East, global warming or trade. But it is the union we have now got....

Crnogorac 3 | 111  
14 Jun 2008 /  #78
Godless Communism was painted over only as pagan Democracy.

The European Union was created by the Rothschilds (Schumann, a Khazar).

the7thfire.com/new_world_order/final_warning/EU_and_Bilderberg_Group.html

A wolf changes his coat but his nature never.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
14 Jun 2008 /  #79
Yeah...we have so many commies in the EU today...you stumble about one on every corner!

First Crow now you...is it something Serbian???
lesser 4 | 1,311  
15 Jun 2008 /  #80
Are you pro-EU at all? How do you see the future of Europe?

Europe should be free trade and free travel zone in particular. I don't see how Brussels bureaucrats are necessary to accomplish this goal. They are just parasites on pocket of European taxpayer.

You like the US constitution? Then why are you so deadset against a constitution for the United States of Europe???

You rather mean Socialist United States of Europe? Only stupidity of American politicians could lead their country to somehow lose in competition with such creature. Beside of that, I'm free from obsession to create here some empire. When I hear such ideas. I'm worried about my pocket and also my life in the future. Individuals living in Europe don't need to live in any empire, this is mentality widespread in Russia.

American constitution is really good if you consider how old. It leave space for freedom while EU-project is destined to control and regulate everything possible. It is a pity that American politicians don't seems to follow their constitution anymore.

Beside of that, look how great distance is between American voter and American establishment. You want the same in Europe, while I think that already now politicians in my country consider themselves to be too important. If we can hardly influence those parasites in Warsaw, how on earth we could influence their bosses in Brussels?? We already see how arrogant they are, refusing to recognize results of referendums in France, Netherlands and Ireland or banning referendums at all.

we here in Europe must somehow bring 27 totally different nations under one

Sorry but this is utopia, this is some alternative vision to Crow's Slavdrom?

I'm all for a core Europe

This wont happen, this is just scare for politically immature voters from Eastern Europe. Such solution simply don't fit to socialist pan-European vision of the EU leadership. No country can be left behind, thus for example constant pressure on Switzerland or Norway.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
15 Jun 2008 /  #81
Worry not all the Eunuchs, they will just keep repeating the referendum in Ireland until there will be a "correct" result. European democracy...
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
15 Jun 2008 /  #82
That was what they did already and there is serious discussion about how it can be called a democracy if people vote but it does not matter. And how they can not just change the language and do another treaty and another ...until people think it is something else, do not turn up to vote and it passes.

Correct me if I am wrong, I do not know so much about American politics, I was never that interested, but was that not what happened in Florida, their votes did not count? and the Patriot bill was past, which was a remake of another bill that was rejected and called a great name, if you do not vote yes in this bill you are "unpatriotic"?

"No" means No.
Deise 07 3 | 76  
15 Jun 2008 /  #83
What do you think, that the EU bought slaves whom will always support their wet dreams about socialist Europe? How dare you to write "Europe" thinking about this bureaucratic mafia based in Brussels? Sure, they granted to themselves monopoly for "Europeiness" and call whoever disagree with them "anti-European". However are you a child to believe in such silly propaganda?

Why dont you read the whole thread before jumping in with hysterical comments such as the above? I've already explained that the tone of that post was one of "irony". Ill try to remember in future that attempts at humour dont seem to go down too well here.

Its quite clear to most people here in Ireland that the result of the referendum was a reaction to various issues, some of which had nothing to do with the EU. Those pushing for a yes vote, including the entire political establishment and mainstream media, ran a terrible campaign and did not explain the Treaty to the people. Brian Cowen, the Irish Prime Minister, even said he hadn't read it. Former prime minister Bertie Ahern, who only resigned a month ago amidst ongoing allegations of coruption, said only "loo-lahs" would vote No ("loo-lah" means a crazy person). The arrogance of these guys was apparent to the people and many voted No as a result.

Another aspect of this vote, IMO, was fears of people as to their own personal circumstances in a changed economic environment. Ireland is now in recession and fears of further immigration and possible competition for jobs was an issue (IMO). Some of the strongest No votes were recorded in working-class areas, whereas wealthier urban areas voted Yes.

A further issue for some members of the Irish business community was the fear that this Treaty could have paved the way for fixed tax rates across the EU, something the French have been very much in favour of and whose presidency begins shortly. Ireland currently has a competitive advantage in this regard with corporation tax rates of just 12.5%. This has attracted many US multinationals to come to Ireland. Without it, the Irish economy would have to compete on a level playing field with the rest of Europe and would more than likely be unable to do so.

As for those who advocated a No vote, far from being an enlightened group of concerned citizens, they consisted of a rag tag bunch of communists, former revolutionaries, far right extremists, conservative Catholics and a strange group called "Libertas" who are fronted by an Irish millionaire called Declan Ganley who made his money in Russia following the collapse of communism through buying and selling Uranium. Amongst his other "ventures" have been his setting up of the first Finance company in Albania prior to that country's pyramid scheme collapse a number of years ago. He also engages in business in Iraq and is involved with providing intelligence equipment to the US military intelligence. He was ably suported by another businessman with a background in military intelligence who is involved in doing business with the US military, namely Ulick McEvaddy.

indymedia.ie/article/87311

These guys stumped up their own cash to run the No campaign. Neither have ever displayed any political motivation before. Very strange...
lesser 4 | 1,311  
15 Jun 2008 /  #84
Deise 07

Sorry if this was indeed a irony, I have read too many serious opinions in such mood.

By the way , this is how professional and informative was YES propaganda in Ireland. How low opinion about Irish voters have those people who invented these pictures.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/files/Lisbon-female.jpg

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/files/Lisbon-male.jpg
osiol 55 | 3,922  
15 Jun 2008 /  #85
Greenland left the EU in about 1985. There, just a little factette for you all.
Deise 07 3 | 76  
15 Jun 2008 /  #86
Sorry if this was indeed a irony, I have read too many serious opinions in such mood.

By the way , this is how professional and informative was YES propaganda in Ireland. How low opinion about Irish voters have those people who invented these pictures.

Dont worry about it. Maybe I should have been clearer.

As for your points with regard to the Yes campaign, I agree with you 100%. It was an absolute disgrace. We have have some of the worst and corrupt politicians in Europe and they really outdid themselves this time.

It is becoming more and more obvious that the establishment, including the political and business classes as well as the mainstream media, are not representative of the people whom they are supposed to represent. Therefore, while the veneer of democracy exists, the reality is that most people are being led in directions they are increasingly unsure of. I would say tis applies to all aspects of life and not just with regard to the EU. The rejection of this Treaty by Ireland, France and the Netherlands is a clear indication of this fact.

My concern for Ireland, however, is that in the world of realpolitik, we could now find ourselves isolated from the rest of Europe. Geographically, we are a small open economy in the middle of the Atlantic. We have relied on fostering goodwill with our neighbours in order to build trade and transform ourselves from a poor farming country into something resembling a modern state. I just hope that the goodwill is not lost forever and we are not punished by the larger states in some way. We are not Spain or Poland. Europe can easily function and continue in the direction it wants to go in without us. However, we cannot easily function without Europe...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,629  
15 Jun 2008 /  #87
factette

He...is that a real word??? Can I use it???

:)

If I remember rightly, is it possible to have a faktchen?

Not if you want to have a serious discussion....:)
lesser 4 | 1,311  
15 Jun 2008 /  #88
We have have some of the worst and corrupt politicians in Europe and they really outdid themselves this time.

Most of political establishment is corrupt. Europe and the US should serve as an example to countries from other continents. Unfortunately this is not the case, our politicians rather show them how to cheat, how to make good propaganda.

It is becoming more and more obvious that the establishment, including the political and business classes as well as themainstream media, are not representative of the people whom they are supposed to represent.

You are right, especially attitude of media outlets is a big disappointment. Journalists are supposed to look at hands of politicians and control their moves. Sadly in western world mainstream media abandoned this role. They rather seems to be on payroll of political elites, instead to watch on their hands, they justify their misbehavior on regular basis. Look at articles in European media just after people of Ireland rejected constitution. Journalists shamelessly advise politicians to ignore this referendum. I read for example article in "Le Figaro" and I could not stand author's hypocrisy. The guy know very well that French voters rejected this treaty earlier but this little fact don't bother him too much. In the same time media of course refuse to provide arguments of anti-EU camp to public opinion.

Therefore, while the veneer of democracy exists, the reality is that most people are being led in directions they are increasingly unsure of. I would say tis applies to all aspects of life and not just with regard to the EU. The rejection of this Treaty by Ireland, France and the Netherlands is a clear indication of this fact.

I don't consider so called "representative democracy" to be true democracy. Thus I think that only democratic country is Switzerland. Over there people decide about detailed issues on regular basis, while in other countries referendums are very rare. Even if politician mercifully allow people to vote, they don't feel to be obligated to respect their will as we clearly see. Thus many people may find participation in any elections to be waste of time.

Beside of that if European establishment will assure their opponents that this is impossible to remove them from their posts using democratic procedures, they may find themselves morally justified to try some other ways...

My concern for Ireland, however, is that in the world of realpolitik, we could now find ourselves isolated from the rest of Europe.

I don't think so. Beside of that remember that Europe is just shi*ty Asian peninsula. You have whole world to trade and do business with. Just the country should be competitive, while this depends only from the Irish themselves.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
15 Jun 2008 /  #89
Godless Communism was painted over only as pagan Democracy.

The European Union was created by the Rothschilds (Schumann, a Khazar).

The EU flag with the '12 stars' was the brainchild of Count Richard Nichoulas Coudenhove Kalergi...He was part Flemish, Czech, Hungarian, Greek & Japanese...the '12 stars' represent the 12 Tribes of Israel...Kalergi, who was not Jewish himself, believed that the Jews were the 'spiritual leaders' of Europe; the actual logo for the 'blue flag' was created by Paul M.G.Levi...Kalergi beleived that European peoples would 'evolve' into a 'Eurasian-Negroid' race...he was insane...As far as the Rothschilds, the EU is simply a more streamlined mechanism for them to exercise financial control over European money-matters and politics...and, yes, the 'red flag' was a little too obvious.

Here is a link to Kalergi's book:
balder.org/judea/Richard-Coudenhove-Kalergi-Practical-Idealism-Vienna-1925.php
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
12 Dec 2008 /  #90
I have just heard on the news that Ireland will be holding a second referendum for the Lisbon treaty next year, they are expecting a YES vote this time.

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