Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic"

i'm little tired now. Nie zamierzam udowadniać źe nie jestem wielbłądem. So if you know some valid argues so show them us.
I'm not going to penalize anything. But now i'm sure you dont care about climate, assciations etc. You started examples with core "pierdolić" and you are TOTALLY unable to create proper translations for such different words as "przypierdolić"( with next to zero sexual connotations) and "wypierdolić" which has very strong sexual connotations.

Zrobiłaś z igły widły (ze zwyklego ostrzezenia wielkie smichy chichy ) , a teraz odwracasz kota ogonem ze ja jaks krucjate prowadze ze sie czepiam denerwuje itp.

Just your translation is a totally crap and it is all what i have to say now.

I dont care about my english, yes is really weak but still enough to see your manipulation. You are not a professional translator you dont care about fidelity, sorry but true. I suppose you are still very young like a child. I'm not going to argue wiith childs here sorry.

OMG you really made my day, thank you :D


You're still not able to prove it, are you? ;)


Are you a member of Mr. Kaczyński's cabinet? ;) It's not normal to see manipulations and conspiracies everywhere. Get a life, dude!

What to hell i have to prove yet ?

We all waiting for your translation the same sentence with substituted przypier... by wypier... lady perfect ;-)

Such similar sentences have totally different sexual connotations in polish original.
So i'm wonder how that difference looks like after your translations lady perfect ;-))

So now i see we can wait to end of the time and few times longer.

Insted of that you i see i'm Kaczynskich eggs and i'm fighting for language purity or something else..

Is here a doctor ?

Somebody need help ;-))

Having read Jova's posts in English and yours i have to say that if i needed something translated, i'd ask Her.

No offence, i'm sure you know what you're talking about and this is just a silly mis-understanding but Jova made an excellent response to the original poster which, while heavy in detail was still easy to follow and made perfect sense.

By contrast i have struggled to understand any of your posts. If i was to attempt to post in Polish i'm sure you would struggle even more so, i'm not mocking you, just pointing out my own opinion here.

I just dont see why this all bothers you so, we are talking about translations of words across language and culture, Jova must be doing something right because even you were fooled by her English:

No. You badly wrong my friend.
I was fooled by her Polish ! (her ignorance).
That was the reason why i've started explain her true difference between polish "przypierdolić" and "wypierdolić".

And she agreed with me - the difference is very huge ( for the sake of sexual connotation, possible associations etc ). For the sake of meanings the both words coud do the same job. But each one do that job in slightly different way (for the sake of sexual related connotations). One is spicy (wypier...) and the other not at all (przypier...)

I've asked her: show me that SPECIFIC difference in English transations!!

And what i've got ?




Only assaults - no transation, no substantive answer.

And she claimed:


So let ask her the same if she really able to translate such sentences CASUALLY.
Translate for me:
"Za sranie przy ścieżce WYpierdolę łopatą!" - that sentence could be received as spicy and funny in polish original of course.

"Za sranie przy ścieżce PRZYpierdolę łopatą!"
-but that isn't spicy or funny not at all IMO.

If she done those translations you will be able to compare results.
So describe the differences and i could telling you there are the same kind of difference in polish originals or not.

Quite simple isnt it ?

(Dont ask me for such translatons i cannot translate anything casually as i said my English is still weak - ask her for that if she is really so good at that.)

Regards

Okies, before i continue i just want to say i'm actually glad this is going further as it will help me learn, so thank you both for your persistance:

However i'm still not seeing your problem, at first it seemed to be with this sentance:


To which you said:


Your reason is:


Yet the translation given has no sexual connotations:


Like you said:


Perhaps the context in which this announcement was made implied this lack of respect, maybe its translation has been 'Englishified' for the better understanding of the non-Polish members on here. I dunno.

But i cant help but feel everyone is arguing the same point here. Perhaps some responses were a little harsh but on both sides i think, sorry if anything i said seemed combative.

Cant we just have a big group hug and move on now? :-)

I'm also happy you want to know what the problem is.


I'm a little bit confused if i have to be honest.
For me meanings and connotations/associations are two different kind of animals.
Is the same for you too ?
I'm aware the "fucking" above not meaning a sexual act.
But is very hard to belive for me (i'm not able to belive) that this "fucking" dont generate ANY sexual associations.
So is this really true ?
If i'm wrong and that translation dont generate any sexual associations, so what we have to add to that sentence in english if we would like insert here some associations related to sex activity and still the meaning of that sentence would be exactly the same (unchanged ) except that extra ambiguous associations partially sex related.

Is the whole sentence should be totally rebuilded in such case or we have to add a word stronger related to sex activity then word "fucking" - to achive that goal ?

Or it is simply completely impossible if the meaning have to stay unchanged ?
Is the English language flexible for such nuances (especially spicy) or not ?

Regards

Yeah i see now, if you are not some place it will offend, i recommend checking that video link again on the previous page.

Us English have an incredible way of adapting and evolving our language beyond all recognition, and new words are regularly being added to our Dictionary because of it.

One of the more noted examples and one of the first to break certain rules about being a real word, is the word 'Yuppie' and is formed of the phrase "Young entrepreneur" or "young urban pioneer". This caused a lot of trouble a few years back as many high scholars didnt want it added to our language, but now it is a word in its own right.

More recently we have the young slang phrase "innit" (prn= "In-it"), which translated into old, proper english would be:
"is it not" and is used as a statement as well as a question:

"This is not the right place"
"Innit?"

or

"this food is rather delicious!"
"Innit!"

And it wont be long before it reaches the Oxford English Dictionary. (It amuses me actually, the Polish i know have trouble pronouncing it, probably because it is similar to your word for "different" = "Inna" which is a rare example of a double letter word in the Polish language it seems, and i believe you accentuate both N's separately, not as one like we do) so it sounds like "inininit" (he he).

Anyway, i digress. the word Fuck has evolved far beyond its original meaning here, i would say its because it is seen as a very extreme expression and a word that once got attention for its vulgar connotations (and yes, connotation and association are different for me too) so it has become forced into otherwise unrelated expressions and subjects in place of, perhaps, less extreme and quieter words:

"My head really hurts" = "my head hurts like FUCK"

"what on Earth is going on here?" = "what the fuck is going on here!"

"i'm going out" / "oh no you are not!" = "like fuck you are!"

to adapt the sentance we were discussing and to add sexual implication, i guess you could say it like this:

"If you shit on my path, i will f**k your a*** so hard you will cry!"

however, the context it was used in was more of a substitute for:
"I would really rather prefer it if you did not do that on my path, thank you, or I may have to resort to physical violence"

As you can see, using a vulgar expression like 'fuck' saves you a lot of writing/speaking, grabs attention and stops you sounding like some kind of posh, patronising head-teacher.

Hope that helps a little. I must admit my only qualification for teaching English is i speak it.... roughly.... innit...

AnotherGuest,
your reasoning is completely illogical. It has been illogical from the very start of this thread. First of all, the discussion here should not really boil down to pondering over the word "fuck" or variations of the Polish verb "pierdolić", as it was originally meant to be devoted to sth completely different (and, mind you, not vulgar at all).

Miarnda came up with a funny (but surely outrageous to you) Polish expression "pierdolenie kotka za pomocą młotka" that reminded me of one funny (nope, you'd say unacceptable and coarse) "announcement" I once happened to bump into.

And then you suddenly turned up with your purposeless nitpicking.
So, first of all, my dear fellow debater, I wanted to remind you of one thing. What I wrote was:


Just to give you a definition - the word "casually" means "without paying attention to detail, not thoroughly, not adequately." My translation was meant to serve the purpose of making the meaning of the sentence clear to those of us who by some strange turn of events are not Polish. So, even if I had translated it wrongly (which is obviously not the case here), you'd had no right to pick on me for that reason.

Secondly, your trying to correct me all the time and prove I'm wrong while at the same time being so incredibly ignorant about the English language is really unbelievable. Using your favourite "doctor-patient" metaphor, it's like going to hospital to get proper treatment and telling the doctors what to do. Silly, INNIT? :P

Thirdly, if you don't believe in my linguistics skills (which you're fully entitled to), take notice of the native speaker's remarks here. If you're still not convinced, then I'm really sorry, but I wouldn't hold out much linguistic hope as far as your difficult case is concerned.

Oh, and BTW...


Thanks a lot. I'm doing my best :D

wow this argument is long and on going, i reckon it could be one of the longest we've seen here, the funny thing its over language and the even funnier thing is that one person can't speak proper english and admits it yet still tires to prove to somebody who speaks both languages well that they are wrong. I just don't get it, go figure???? !!!!!!!

ppfff what a confusing world

*head meets desk... repeatedly....*

So than, how about that group hug?

I suppose I've got some mixed feelings :P

Thanks for examples and explanations !


I see F*** here substitute REALLY - ok
So is this F*** a polite word here or not ?
If not , so why not ?
For the sake we can use that word to describing sexual act in quite different sentence ?

I see context imply meaning it is clear.
But i'm not sure has that context such power to fade off all sex-related associations possible with F*** word ?

If that context is so really powerfull why F*** there is stiil rude ?
Or F*** there is not a rude word in such context ?

In polish any context is so powerfull only prefixes have such great power to eliminate associations.

So is such equation true
"I'll fucking give you a whack if you shit on the path!" = "I'll REALLY give you a whack if you shit on the path!"

Both sentences don't generating any sex-related associations ?

So what is the source of associations in English ?
Only all sentence or at least expressions ?
Any single word in English is still to little for generating associations the same way as syllable in polish words ?

If this is true i'm really amazed. I wasn't aware of that.

Best regards

Good to hear you admit you're not omniscient. I think some of us here might have thought you consider yourself an expert in the field of English vulgar expressions.

I've assumed so far each word is able to generate its own specific associations the same way as in polish they are able to generate them.

But if it is not a true i have next question.

How English native speakers processing sentences ?

For example somebody hear:
"I'll fu*king...(time marker)
... give you a whack if you shit on the path!"

Which way English speaker know he have to wait for the rest of sentence at a time signed by time marker for the moment he/she can start associate ?

We (polish native speakers ) starting associate immediately. We dont need wait for the end of expression or a whole sentence.
As a result we getting (creating) assosiations from words or expressions.
That way we are more immune for different word sequences in the sentence. As a result permutated word sentence is still understandable for us.

English speakers must processing sentences in quite different way i see.
That is the reason why right word sequence is so important in english.
Further part of the sequence is able to cancel associations which could be created by previous part. So only final sequence as a whole is able to create final associations.

Is this true ?

It is really interesting. I see i have to apologize you Jova.

Is that an insult? Meaning maybe what I think it is? The president's balls?
Or did it refer to the egg throwing incident in Chicago?


It seems rather silly to me to write f*** and then use the word later on in the same paragraph. If you embassed to write the full word, I would suggest the use of the word faen as substitute. A very erudite video is available:

Structure, structure, structure.

For fuck to have a sexual meaning, certain conditions have to be met which are violated two words into this sentence. The use of an -ing form after the contraction 'I'll' with no intervening form of 'be' would prevent any native speaker from assuming a sexual meaning. Basically to have a sexual meaning it has to be the main verb. Coincidentally some years ago the Polish group Hey (which sometimes sang songs in something sort of like English) had a song with a line in it "but I fuck it" which was probably not meant to be sexual but which for most native speakers could only be interpreted sexually.

"Za sranie przy ścieżce przypierdolę łopatą!" which I would casually translate as "I'll fucking give you a whack if you shit on the path!"

I'd go: If you shit on the path, I'll fucking beat you with a shovel" or "shit on the path and I'll beat you with a fucking shovel" (the expletive fucking is usually inserted just before the main stress)

Finally, "I'll give you a whack" doesn't have an established sexual meaning but I think it easily could take on such a meaning, in which case it would mean "I'll give you a hand job" which may or may not discourage people from defecating near said path.

A Chinese friend of mine once said to me English was very, very confusing since so much of what was said could be taken sexually.

!!
Where is this path again? sounds like its worth it to me!!

ahem.

Fu*k has transcended beyond just a vulgar word for 'sexual intercourse'. In fact, i've heard the word 'Kurwa' used almost as much in Polish conversation (or maybe i'm just hanging around the wrong kind of girls!) and in as many different contexts.

If i hurt myself, i may exclaim - "Fu*k!"
And in similar situation have heard my Polish friends exclaim "Kurwa!"

It does not mean i desire sexual gratification to ease the pain (though it would be nice!) and it does not mean they require the services of a prostitute either. (unless there is some other odd Polish tradition i dont know of? ;)

Oh and i chose that moment to **** out the words as it was by far the most offensive use i had given, particularly adding the 'A' word to it also, i know we are adults(!) here but i didnt want to cause offense.

Why is it people always want to learn all the swear words from a foreign language first? i just saw a Czech girl i know on the bus and she said:

"So how is the Polish going? what naughty words have you learned?"

i dont really know any?! have i been learning wrong?

I didn't assumed how many times i will use f*** in my text.
Some of them i've corrected to f*** when i saw too many of them close to each other.

But now i see FU*K is not a rude word as is unable to generate associations alone. It act like short. Rude are only expressions or whole sentences as they are able to generate associations.

FU*K without context mean only keyword.

So why that word as a keyword could be more embarassing then any other one ?

Such F*** writing style is very confusing because suggest that word alone generating bad associations.

Could anybody explain that ?
What is the real source of shame ?

Moreover substituting FUCK by beep sound at a sundtrack has no sense IMO now, as bad associations are not generated by FUCK alone but as a sentence or a whole expression.

So the same associations should be generated after substitution as one type keyword will be substituted by other one.

In polish language we have quite different case. We have whole arsenal full of colorfull dirty words (by nature) which are able to generate bad associations without any futher context as well as any other context.

But beeping the rude words is not a polish invention.
Why ?

Why in english are made such futile efforts ?

Would you like to explain me (and for any other the same weak as me )
that phenomenon?

Regards

AAG you are trying just a little too hard now... down girl...

---

I guess its just a matter of respect, curses were originally banned because of religion, not taking the Lords name in vain, not inviting Satan into your home, etc. (hence = swear)

but other words fell into this category over time, even replacing them. 'Damn' and 'Hell' are not filtered out when used in such a manner any more.

I agree that it is silly now, like a child might feel rebellious for saying 'shit' but if we didnt class it as a bad word then it wouldnt matter would it?

To be honest i dont know who decides these things, perhaps we should ask them to reduce these words to a normal classification, it would save a lot of hassle.

But these words are used in anger a lot, and suggest (as their original intention i would say) a complete lack of respect for whoever they are used against or about.

This is dying down a little now, and they can be used to indicate urgency even with those you have respect for:
"pass me the phone!"
"why"
"just pass me the fucking phone!!!"

i cannot believe so much conversation has happened over one word,

Fuck is more than just four letters huh?

In my opinion, it has to do the Puritan influence upon English speakers. Call it the prude factor. I was on a train in Germany. We were stopped in a station, and there was a terrible odor from some cagged geese on the platform. I didn't know the German word for goose, so I asked the little, old lady next me, "What's that?" She replied, "Scheisse" which, of course, is the same root from which the English "shit" comes.

Also, because of the French invasion and rule of Britain, Anglo-Saxon words became lower class. Thus, in polite society, we tend to avoid our straight forward, to the point, A-S words. We defecate. We copulate. We see dog feces, etc.

Here in the US, the FCC (federal communications commission) issues pretty stiff fines for "profanity." At one time the movies were completely censored. Without passing the prude board, you couldn't publicly show a film. The movie, From Here to Eternity, showed Burt Lancaster & Deborah Kerr kissing on the beach in swim suits almost didn't make to the theaters. Considered too racy.

I dont have a problem with meanings, i have a problem with associations.

Let me explain.

In polish we have word pierdolenie which mean illogical talking as well as sexual intercourse or knock,knock too.
Meaning depend on context but associations in polish coming from any possible context. So single word generating ALL possible associations (some of them are stronger then other).

We can add prefixes to verbs and that way get quite new verbs which have different meanings and also different associations.
It is the main obstacle for right climate translation not a meaning only.

It is hard to compare one system (english with keyword fuck) to other (polish with many specialized keywords for different meanings and associations areas for each keyword).

In english i see single word not generating associations. Associations coming from meaning i see.
Am I wrong or not ?

In polish associations are sometimes more important than current meaning. They are create specific climate which is hard to translate as primarily only meaning is translated.

Do you see the real problem (for me) now ?


Thanks a lot for that info!!!

"I'll f****** give you a whack if you shit on the path!"

So i see f**** demonstrating the lack of respect primarily in english.

In polish original przypier**** don't demonstrate the lack of respect but desperation and urgency and such conditions creating quite differnt climate in polish original than is in english after translation.

We have also specialized rude words which primarily demonstrate the lack of respect and needs of domination.

So now i start to see f***** keyword is very well recognizable and is able to generate associations related with respect level not a sex activity first of all.

Polish dirty keywords have different genealogy. They are so dirty because so too much colorfull. Theirs cores mostly mimic differnt sounds : pierd, jeb, dup itp. So they are not so sofisticated as other non rude words.

Military people use the F word alot. WWII brought about Snafu, originally an acronym meaning situation normal, all fucked up. Today it's used as adjective meaning chaotic, disordered, confused.

Lyrics in most crap, sorry, rap songs make very liberal use of the word.

It is verboten word at the school where my wife teaching. A parent responded to a note from a teacher about his child's use of foul language with the comment, "I don't where the f+++ he gets it."

I would say that particular basic principle is the same in every language, there are always extra associations (helpfully left out of dictionaries most of the time) that words or expressions have that don't lend themselves to (graceful) translation.

But where and how extra associations occur will differ by language. Fuck is a pretty unimaginative word and is inherently kind of aggressive. This makes it hard to do very much with it (any English equivalent of the lopata sign that uses a form of fuck will be crude and aggressive but not very expressive or imaginitive) So you're right that a big part of the Polish uses of -pierdolić (with prefix) will be lost in English, just adding in some form of fuck won't do it (but it's generally all that can be done).

My go at the sign in question using the resources of (American) English a little better: "Take a dump on this trail and I'll dump on your ass with a shovel." or maybe even "Empty your ass on this trail and I'll fill it back up with a shovel."

I think the two translations you've provided are not strong enough to correspond to the word "przypierdolić", which is really coarse.

Well thinking in terms of individual words is how we got into this mess. But if you want coarse, then I'll give you coarse ...

"Shit on this trail and I'll fuck you with a shovel."
I'm appalled that I just wrote that.

:) Please, don't. Treat the mater clinically and you should be fine :)


*matter, that is ;)