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Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic"


Czarne Oczy 14 | 64  
6 Apr 2008 /  #1
I have 3 questions:

1. I get that the "imperfect" form is the most untouched form of a verb (I think..). What is the difference between imperfect and perfect? Bringing me to the next question...

2. In my Larousse dictionary, "stchórzyć," is noted as being in its perfect form, but "stepować," is noted as being in its imperfect form. Both verbs have the "ć" ending; why is one imperfect and not the other?

3. What is the meaning of the prefixes "po" and "przy"?

Dzięki za pomoc:)
Jova - | 172  
6 Apr 2008 /  #2
I tried to answer the first question but got completely lost so I'll just try the second one ;)
Your dictionary is not lying to you - "stchórzyć" is in its perfective form - you have a prefix s- added to the root "tchórzyć", which is a non-perfective term for "chicken out". The word "stepować" is not perfective because the "s" is not a prefix here and there is no such word as "tepować"!

The best answer to the third question you'll find in the article below... :D
Actually, you won't find it because I somehow can't attach the file and I don't know why. Still, I'll type it just by myself cause i find it really hilarious :)

One of the most amazing things about the Polish language is that you can stick prefixes onto nearly everything. Except furniture. You can add them to one vulgar word in particular and create a whole bunch of completely different (but still rude) verbs. This type of language is useful to know, if only to recognize it’s being used in your presence.

First, look at Polish prefixes of which there are boatloads: od-, prze-, przy-, na-, po-, za-, etc. (the list is long). You can take a verb like jechać (to go, to drive) and glue on some prefixes and wind up with different words: przyjechać (to arrive) or odjechać (to leave). Consider this extensive system of prefixation as economic linguistic recycling.

One particular Polish word has prefixation possibilities galore. It’s vulgar but we’re all adults (are we??? ;)) so let’s treat his clinically. The Polish verb pierdolić (to fuck) has super-semantic flexibility. It’s also considered more vulgar than its English equivalent which has a few recycling capabilities too. For example, the English f-word is an interjection but also a verb. The –ing or –ed forms are used as adjectives. Prepositional particles render different meanings like “fucked up” or “fucked over.” Yes, terribly coarse and downright offensive but the point is that we can squeeze several uses out of different forms of one word (for a less offensive example, check out the verb “to put” in the dictionary).

But we don’t add prefixes to the f-word so actually the Polish p-word makes the English f-word look pretty sorry when it comes to different forms and meanings. For example, add the prefix w- to the Polish form for wpierdolić (komuś), which means to beat someone up. But wpierdolić can also mean to scarf something as in chowing down. Substitute the prefix za- and you’ve got zapierdolić which means to steal something. Podpierdolić also means to steal, or to report on someone in a nasty backstabbing way.

And then there’s na-: add that to the Polish p-word and it has the sense of filling up or putting in too much of something. For example, if a waiter serves you a cutlet the size of bean and a mountain of potatoes, he “napierdolił ci ziemniaków”. That is, he screwed you over with potatoes – the proportions just aren’t right. If someone “napierdolił mi farmazonów” it means he’s telling me all kinds of lies, filling me up with unlikely impossible stories (farmazony is slang for “stories” in the sense that they’re not true).

And then this vulgar word can be used like the very ordinary English word “to put”. “Pierdolnij mi to na stół” would be like saying, “Fuckin’ put that here on the table for me.” Here’s my favourite: “Pierdolnąć obrazek na ścianę” would be “to hand a picture on the wall” – in less than casual terms, that is.
OP Czarne Oczy 14 | 64  
6 Apr 2008 /  #3
That can be titled "Polish in 3 minutes." thats amazing^ LOL. Thanks so much for the help:)
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
6 Apr 2008 /  #4
Woah, seriously in-depth answer. I'm gonna have to read a little everyday to understand it...

As soon as i figure out what a verb is... (English schooling is rubbish!)

Thanks for both the question and the first answer, i'm studying this myself at the moment and from a 'dumb English language' perspective, its bloody tough!
miranda  
6 Apr 2008 /  #5
(English schooling is rubbish!)

joking aside it is part of speech describing an action

?Pierdolnąć obrazek na ścianę?

my fav is"pierdolenie kotka za pomocą młotka"(titting a cat with a hammer)saying something for a sake of saying
Jova - | 172  
6 Apr 2008 /  #6
my fav is"pierdolenie kotka za pomocą młotka"

Hahahaaa....
Once I went camping - nature, tents, a lake and so on. There was a path leading to the lake and the owner of the area had apparently had some problems with drunken campers before... Mainly with their bodily functions... :D So he put up an announcement saying "Za sranie przy ścieżce przypierdolę łopatą!" which I would casually translate as "I'll fucking give you a whack if you shit on the path!" :D

It really killed me.
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
6 Apr 2008 /  #7
(poor reply removed, i'm high on anti-flu drugs right now, sorry)

Seriously, I like to think I'm an intelligent guy but I must have been off the day we learned all those pretty little names, never really thought about it until recently while reading through 'Learn Polish in 4 Weeks'.

Oh i get it, just a thought tis all, Thanks for editing the cat thing, i was gonna ask. Literary translations are still not my strong point!
AnotherGuest  
6 Apr 2008 /  #8
Mainly with their bodily functions... :D So he put up an announcement saying "Za sranie przy ścieżce przypierdolę łopatą!" which I would casually translate as "I'll fucking give you a whack if you shit on the path!" :DIt really killed me.

Hi

I'm polish native speaker and my english is relatively weak. I'm not sure if you right way translate above.
"Przypierdolę" has nothing to do will fucking i'm sure.
It means only hard punch without any respect but not fucking any way.
It is a kind of warninig which means: i'm very angry, so if i catch you i could bite you by whack if i lose controll what is very probable in such case.

Could you explain me why you used "fucking" in your translation and what really kiled you ?

Regards
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
6 Apr 2008 /  #9
I think it is used like in the English
"I'm gonna fuck you up!"

which means:

"I'm going to beat you violently"

(And has nothing to do with sex which the word 'fuck' would usually imply)

but to a kitten....
AnotherGuest  
6 Apr 2008 /  #10
Thanks for the explanation.

Now i'm only wonder is this was killed Jova or something else.

For me it sound like quite ordinary warning - nothing special, a little rude but nothing more.
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
6 Apr 2008 /  #11
I'd say it isnt what you would usually hear at a camping site or anywhere else public for that matter:

"I'll fucking give you a whack if you shit on the path!"

Not the politest way of saying it, is it?

i'd have laughed too, unless you actually think it killed her? Jova's reply was impressive enough, but to type all that while dead too!?!?

Jova gets my vote for PF Member-of-the-Month!!
AnotherGuest  
6 Apr 2008 /  #12
Not the politest way of saying it, is it?i'd have laughed too, unless you actually think it killed her? Jova's reply was impressive enough, but to type all that while dead too!?!?Jova gets my vote for PF Member-of-the-Month!!

I don't think she is dead. It is not a polite sentence but very too less decrptive for me to killing me.
She could find something kind of: " Nogi z dupy powyrywam jak dorwę tego gada co mi nasra na ścieżce" or even more descripitive and funny.

But i agree it was not an official warning ;-)
End of off topic.
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
6 Apr 2008 /  #13
What is the difference between imperfect and perfect?

I think it's got something to do with the Slavic verb system. Polish, a Slavic language, doesn't have aspects for its verbs so it relies on the use of perfected (completed) and imperfected (incompleted) verbs to add extra meaning. I'm tentatively going to say that perfected verbs emphasise the completion of the action while the imperfected emphasise the duration of the action.

Uczyć - imperfected - to teach s/o s/t (like 'teach English')
Nauczyć - perfected - to teach s/o to do s/t (like 'teach s/o to ride a bike')

The only time you need to be aware of the different forms is when referring to the future and I think, when making '1st conditionals'.

If I were teaching them, I would be tempted not to present them side by side but approach them as diifferent verbs for different contexts as the choice of perfective / imperfective might have further implications than just grammatical accuracy - politeness for example:

Poczekaj! - Please wait for a moment (until s/t happens)
Czekaj! - Just fucking wait! OK? (and keep waiting, you cow)
Krzysztof 2 | 973  
6 Apr 2008 /  #14
perfective - imperfective verbs have been discussed on this forum several times.
Of course it's a extended argument, but if you need more info and would like to know a little more - use the search function or simply browse this section (Grammar & Pronunciation) and maybe also the other (General Polish Language) for some older threads.

Czekaj! - Just fucking wait! OK? (and keep waiting, you cow)

that's highly exaggerated (thus confusing for beginners or intermediate learners), it may have some humoristic value, but still you're not helping :)
Jova - | 172  
6 Apr 2008 /  #15
I'm polish native speaker and my english is relatively weak. I'm not sure if you right way translate above.
"Przypierdolę" has nothing to do will fucking i'm sure.

It's good you admitted your English is weak because you actually confirmed this fact by claiming that the word "przypierdolić" has nothing in common with the word "to fuck". You really need to spend more time learning English! "Fuck" in English corresponds to a wide variety of meanings in Polish which are all expressed by different verbs. It surely has sexual connotations, but not only. If you yearn for an in-depth analysis of the topic, I recommend Monty Python's Usage of the word 'fuck'.



Jova's reply was impressive enough, but to type all that while dead too!?!?

I'm very often killed by absurdities, so I kind of got used to doing many thing being stone dead. It does not seem to bother me any longer :P
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
6 Apr 2008 /  #16
Cool, ghosts are sexy!

...

Oh sorry, i forgot myslef for a moment, love the Monty Python link though!!
AnotherGuest  
7 Apr 2008 /  #17
It's good you admitted your English is weak because you actually confirmed this fact by claiming that the word "przypierdolić" has nothing in common with the word "to fuck". You really need to spend more time learning English! "Fuck" in English corresponds to a wide variety of meanings in Polish which are all expressed by different verbs. It surely has sexual connotations, but not only. If you yearn for an in-depth analysis of the topic,

Thanks Jova
I have to apologize you for my curiosity at that particular topic ( i know you are female and i'm a man but men when are ill used to go to female doctors too. So be my language doctor for a while please).

So tell me the truth do you see/feel the difference between POLISH "przypierdolić" i "wypierdolić" ? (i've assumed you are not native polish speaker)

When i said:

"Przypierdolę" has nothing to do will(shoud be with of course) fucking i'm sure.

i mean polish word "pierdolenie" more precisely its strong sexual context.
I don't deny word "fucking" corresponds to a wide variety of meanings in Polish but i suppose ( maybe i'm wrong - so it is the reason why i'm asking) english fucking has at all that cases STRONG sexual charge/conotations.

In polish, sexual charge strongly depend on prefix not a context.
So "przypierdolić" loosing 99% of sexual charge imperfect form "pierdolić".
Quite different case is for perfect form "wypierdolić". That form has ALL sexual associations heritage from imperfect core "pierdolić". At any (all) context such associations will stay with that word.

Prefix przy- voiding that kind of heritage. "Przypierdolić" is still a rude word and any way polite but loosing almost all sexual charge - only its imperfect core showing us that coming from "pierdolić" and it is the only reason why that word is still rude not polite.

Do you feel (understand) that Jova ?

I suppose word "fucking" always (at any context ) has STRONG sexual associations independent from context and current meaning related with that context.
I suppose it is the reason why it killing you. Its ambiguous associations were the main reason for that. Is that true or i'm still wrong ?

Could you explain me that ?

If i'm still not enough clear so i have explain: In polish you are NOT TO ABLE describe sexual act by using form "przypierdolić" (with prefix przy-). But in english you are able to use "fucking" word for the same goal. It is the main reson why in my opinion your translation is not 100% apropriate. So as a result it is more spicy in english (and killing you) then its polish original which for me is only little rude and no spicy or even funny (rather quite ordinary - as any other non official messages).

Best regards
Jova - | 172  
7 Apr 2008 /  #18
So tell me the truth do you see/feel the difference between POLISH "przypierdolić" i "wypierdolić" ? (i've assumed you are not native polish speaker)

First of all, you've assumed the wrong thing - I am a native Polish speaker! And all the intricacies of our parlance are fairly well-known to me.

So... I could never turn down your kind request so here is my view on the difference between two curious Polish verbs "przypierdolić" and "wypierdolić" (BTW, making a woman dwell on such vulgar matters seems highly inappropriate!!! :P)

When I hear the word "przypierdolić" I generally get a picture of banging against sth, like "przypierdoliłem głową w słup" would mean (well, now I'm confused, I'd still use a variant of the word fuck to translate it)... so it would mean "I banged my head against a post [crudely put]". Morever, you can "przypierdolić komuś" which would mean to beat sb up [quite coarsly, that is]. As Kemaleon here earlier suggested, you could smoothly translate this utilizing the word "fuck" again - "I'm gonna fuck you up!"

"Wypierdolić" is not that clear-cut and obvious. I'm pretty sure that the interpretation of the words depends mainly on your experience, i.e. in what contexts the word has been used when you happened to be around. However, "wypierdolić" could have some sexual connotations, which I wouldn't say about "przypierdolić".

So "przypierdolić" loosing 99% of sexual charge imperfect form "pierdolić".

I totally agree with you on this. Still, I can't remember when I said you're acutally able to describe a sexual act using the word "PRZYpierdolić". Remind me, please.

So as a result it is more spicy in english (and killing you) then its polish original which for me is only little rude and no spicy or even funny (rather quite ordinary - as any other non official messages).

I still can't understand your outrage about the whole thing. I just remebered sth, considered it funny and decided to post it here. I'm very sorry if I hurt you feelings but you shouldn't really treat everything so seriously. Chill out, man.
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
7 Apr 2008 /  #19
Ok how about this: have you guys seen The Smurfs?

the way they used 'Smurf' for every other word, its kinda like that in English but using the word 'Fuck'.
See Jova's link above, funny though it is, it really is rather accurate.

I cannot say if it is the same in general in Polish but the description offered by Jova seemed to make sense to me, are you arguing the real, proper dictionary use of the word/s? because our dictionary most definitely doesnt include many of the fuck meanings we use.

What is your understanding of the English language anyhow? there are a few little slip-ups in your post but otherwise you seem perfectly able to communicate, do you ever get to watch any UK TV?
mafketis 23 | 8,544  
7 Apr 2008 /  #20
"I suppose word "fucking" always (at any context ) has STRONG sexual associations independent from context and current meaning related with that context."

Not necessarily:

"przypierdoliłem głową w słup" could be (in my dialect):

"I fucking banged my head on that pole." or (I banged my head on that fucking pole. or I fucking banged my head on that fucking pole.)

None of those has any connotations of sex whatsoever.
Kemaleon 3 | 122  
7 Apr 2008 /  #21
50 points for ironically using the word 'Pole' for your explaination!!

Ha haha!!
mafketis 23 | 8,544  
7 Apr 2008 /  #22
"I get that the "imperfect" form is the most untouched form of a verb (I think..). What is the difference between imperfect and perfect?"

First, the imperfect is not the most 'untouched' form of a verb. (I know many dictionaries act as if this were the case but it's not). Often the perfective is the more basic form. kupić is more basic than kupować, przeprosić is more basic than przepraszać etc etc

Related to this, heed the warning of someone who's been there. Do not go around learning 'aspect pairs' (starting with the imperfective and then learning which perfective goes with it). That's a losing game and no one who's tried (that I know of) is very satisfied with the results.

It is a good idea to get a conscious knowledge of how perfective and imperfective verbs are derived from each other, but

My street-grammar guide to aspect.

First - think of perfective and imperfective verbs with the 'same' meaning as different verbs, it's easier. There are basically two aspect classes (with some sub-classes) perfective and imperfective. Each verb goes into one of the two.

Second - to figure out the aspect of a verb in context (warning: complex)
1. figure out the root
2. figure out the aspect class
3. count the kind and number of morphological processes (and the order they take place in)

there are three basic kinds of morphological processes that verbs can follow in terms of aspect:

prefixation : anytime you add a prefix, the result is perfective
added -w- : this involves adding some kind of suffix with a -w- the usual purpose is to form an imperfective verb when the more basic form is perfective, (odczytywać from odczytać, roughly 'read from, decypher'

'a-hardening' : this is messy, basically you the final vowel (usually to a, sometimes with other changes) and 'harden' consonants in the stem zapraszać from zaprosić.

so,

prosić - root - proś = imperfective

zaprosić - root - proś = imperfective + prefix za- = perfective

zapraszać (a-hardening) applied to stem = imperfective

otworzyć = stem = otworz- pefective
otwierać = a-hardening = imperfective

Final note: occasionally some roots don't seem to inherently belong to either aspect class and both forms need to be derived.

zamknąć = zamk + -nąć (nąć is a perfective marker)
zamykać = zamk + a-hardening (including the weird insertion of -y-)

I hope this wasn't too confusing, I'll try to explain more if it is (or not, your call).
AnotherGuest  
7 Apr 2008 /  #23
What is your understanding of the English language anyhow? there are a few little slip-ups in your post but otherwise you seem perfectly able to communicate, do you ever get to watch any UK TV?

Yes ;-)
I'm not going to present myself here as i don't want you become biased.

I'm just curious how native english speakers receiving "fuck" or "fucking".
I'm not curious about particular meaning at any given context but about associations.
Sex related words generating usually strong associations. So i wonder is this possible if "fucking" doesn't generate such associations in particular context ? In such context meaning related to "fucking" isn't related to sex activity - i'm aware that of course.

But i'm not sure could be that context such strong enough that we are able to forget for a moment that given "fucking" word instance generating associations sex related ?

Dictionaries telling us meaning only at given context but doesn't tell us nothing about associations. The lasts generating specific climate which decide if innocent sentence is spicy or not. I hope you know what i'm talking about.

Could you imagine heaven where people don't know nothing about sex, so sex related words don't exists as sex doesn't exist there. So in that heaven each "fucking" instance ins't rude as cannot generate sex related associations. So my questions is: could you give us the sentence example which contain "fucking" and such sentence for native english speaker here is the same polite (not rude) as the same sentence in such heaven ?

Best regards
Jova - | 172  
7 Apr 2008 /  #24
Could you imagine heaven where people don't know nothing about sex

And you call it a heaven???

So in that heaven each "fucking" instance ins't rude as cannot generate sex related associations.

Do you really think the word "fuck" is rude because people associate it with sex? OMG, are you a monk or sth???
AnotherGuest  
7 Apr 2008 /  #25
Could you imagine heaven where people don't know nothing about sexAnd you call it a heaven???

Call it how you like. Even hell if you want ;-)
It is only thought experiment.

Do you really think the word "fuck" is rude because people associate it with sex? OMG, are you a monk or sth???

No i'm pervert don't you see ? ;-)

But to telling the truth yes i suppose "fuck" is similar way rude as "pierdolić".
The last is rude because you can use it to describing taboo activity.

Only professional vocabulary related to taboo isn't rude.
mafketis 23 | 8,544  
7 Apr 2008 /  #26
I'm just curious how native english speakers receiving "fuck" or "fucking".
I'm not curious about particular meaning at any given context but about associations.
Sex related words generating usually strong associations. So i wonder is this possible if "fucking" doesn't generate such associations in particular context ? In such context meaning related to "fucking" isn't related to sex activity - i'm aware that of course.

fuck has three basic meanings in English (according to this native speaker)

1. sexual activity (primarily but not only conventional heterosexual intercourse) Polish equivalents would be pierdolić, jebać. For this meaning to really apply there needs to be an overt direct object (or plural subject). Mrs Jones began fucking the delivery boy on Wednesday afternoons. They got drunk and fucked.

2. a semantically empty expletive (that is so fucking cool) here the Polish equivalent is kurwa (zamknij się kurwa / shut the fuck up; co kurwa robisz? what the fuck are you doing?) how often when using kurwa do Polish people think of prostitutes?

3. similar to Polish expletive non-sexual pierdolić (though there are nowhere near as many forms as in Polish) where it forms part of a verb phrase with coverb prefix in Polish with preposition in English) but without the sexual meaning: Off the top of my head I can think of:

fuck up: intranstive = make a mess of a situation, fail

fuck up someone (or fuck someone up): transitive = make life difficult for someone and/or beat someone up

fuck someone over: transitive = cheat, deceive

fuck off: leave, get lost (mostly restricted to imperative)

There's probably a few more but this usage (like I said) is nowhere near as extensive as in Polish.
Jova - | 172  
7 Apr 2008 /  #27
Well done, mafketis, I must say I'm impressed!
AnotherGuest  
7 Apr 2008 /  #28
how often when using kurwa do Polish people think of prostitutes?

Dont miss "kurwa" and "prostytutka". The last give pleasure for the many. It is a name of a particular profession.
"Kurwa" it is a disaster. It is a symbol which telling us: the life is brutal and danger too.
So it is not accidentaly chosen word for that exclamation.
Try think about "kurwa" as opposit exclamation to "Jezu". Some kind of people like to think about God other would like to remember that kurwy are between us because life is hard. So it is the reason why we more freaquently calling "kurwa" if we are upset or at stress than if we are happy.

Some guys whos throwing "kurwa" one time after another even dont know how many times they've said that. So it isn't important what speaker thinking at that moment saying "kurwa" it is important what thinking listener.

That word focusing attention and is very well recognizable. So belive me all of us except hard mental disabled such have associations sooner or later to the source of evil or disaster what "kurwa" present. It is not any easy woman. It is almost which - the black character, beastly.

That is the reason why "kurwa" is also a heavy insult but "prostytutka" is almost neutral.

I can agree some people overdosing "kurwa" limiting their own perception but most people are still very sensitive for that (key)word.
Some people even aren't able to withstand that kind of associations which that word creating - they feel embarrassment etc.
As a result for some part of society word "kurwa" is prohibited but at the other end at some subcultures "kurwa " is a must just for the sake of associations.It is not a matter of tradtion.

If such keyword woudn't generate so strong associations it wouldn't be so popular between them of course.
Jova - | 172  
7 Apr 2008 /  #29
AnotherGuest,
I can't help getting the impression that you write your posts in Polish, then copy them into some crappy computer translator and paste it here. They're getting more and more obscure, just on the verge of intelligibility.

I also get the feeling you're some kind of an anti-vulgarity crusader and (hopefully not) some religious freak (who in his right mind would ever associate the exclamation "kurwa!" with the exclamation "Jesus!"???) trying to penalize all that seems impure.
OP Czarne Oczy 14 | 64  
7 Apr 2008 /  #30
Thanks so much, I'm printing the information I get about grammar (I can't learn Polish looking at my ancient computer screen:).

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