History / Another WWII thread. [69]


From what you've been telling us, one could guess that British naval vessels had been sailing into the Baltic past Polish vessels going in the opposite direction. Does that mean the British made a U-turn having spotted the Polish navy retreating from the Baltic? [I don't know the history of the WWII so well, that's why I'm asking ...]

History / Another WWII thread. [69]

The war was declared ("started") by Britain on the 3rd of September 1939, so ...

Food / Is it just me, or is the Polish diet rather unhealthy? [119]

As no one is prepared to answer Dnz's insults (no one takes them seriously?) towards Polish cuisine, let me sum up his interesting views on the subject:

Dnz thinks that all Polish food is vile, everything is fried and covered in mayonaise and raw cabbage, and that about 90% of the food here is inedible by western standards.

Polish people know that their food is bland and greasy. That is why they eat beetroot, cabbage and those disgusting pickle things which act as a laxative. To help themselves in this undoubtedely desperate situation, Polish people simply don't eat much. Yet, all this is in vain as, despite their efforts, the Polish life expectancy is far lower than some 3rd world countries.

To make things painfully clear to Polish people, he argues that nothing can beat a good old Sunday roast with Yorkshire puds.

Finally, Dnz is highly surprised that anyone has not yet posted anything that would stamp British cuisine in a similar way, saying - for example - "well, at least we don't eat fish and chips all the time" as a response to his propos about Polish food.

---

Yes, we do agree with everything stated above, but definitely not with his opinion on Yorkshire puddings, which - when eaten every Sunday - may happen to be the cause of dangerous lesions in someone's brain.

Genealogy / COUNT AND COUNTESS DECROIX [15]


I am also curious what GUS is. I've known so far that it is Główny Urząd Statystyczny (Central Statistical Office), but this doesn't keep census records, or does it?

Language / CONJUGATION OF CHLAĆ - CHLAM, CHLEJĘ or BOTH? [7]


Not at all. I may say that I don't even "hear" people using one or the other.

Language / SURNAMES IN -KO DECLINED LIKE FEM. NOUNS? [2]

The rule and the norm in the Polish language is generally to decline whatever can be declined. Thus, the surname Kołodko should be declined, and indeed, it often is: I often heard "ministrowi Kołodce". Yet, some people, including politicians, insist - against the language norm - that their name shoud remain undeclinable. That was, for example, the case of the former PiS minister Zbigniew Ziobro, a case widely known in the Polish media world. He wanted TV and press journalist to leave his surname undeclined, yet the linguist who was telling the story to us at a language training at work, said the former minister was not right demanding this. Some surnames, however, may be left undeclined by tradition, but I am not able to give you any examples right now.

As for the name Kościuszko, I think the fixed historic tradition is to decline the surname, so you should always hear: Naród zaufał Tadeuszowi Kościuszce.

Life / Could I live on 2000zl in Poland? [30]

Renting a one-bed flat would still be more expensive in Warsaw or Kraków than in any other major city in Poland. Most people in Poland live on less than 2000 zł, but you must remember that they own their flats or live in co-operative or council flats. A bill for a 40 sq. m. co-operative flat (mieszkanie spółdzielcze) would be 300-400 zloty per month (covering heating, but excluding electricity and gas) in Warsaw or nearby. Buying a flat could be a good solution for you. I recently saw a 3-room one, 52 sq. m., for sale at the price of 350.000 zloty in a town 16 km from Warsaw, in a newly costructed block of flats of four floors.

Travel / Travelling to Łódź - advice needed pls [6]

£ódź Fabryczna is pretty close to the city centre, so you may walk down there from the station. I always do when I go there for a day trip from Warsaw.

In the 1990s my wife and I used to go there to buy clothes. As the clothing industry collapsed over time, we stopped doing this, and last time I was there on a business trip, I didn't visit any single shop selling clothes!

I never saw any museum in £ódź either. A year ago, I went to the famous Manufactura. It is worth visiting as this is an entire huge factory revitalised into a commercial center. It is a pretty unique place in Poland, and as you may not even want to enter any of the shops there, you will have a chance to see the exterior face of an old, original factory as if it were built anew, such it is the cleaness of walls and bricks after the restoration work. You may also conveniently eat there, cheap or more expensive, as there are quite a numbers of small restaurants of different sorts.

In the vicinity, you may then have a look on the Poznański Palace, a very fine example of the secession style in Poland. Mr. Poznański was a Polish Jew who owned the factory (not only this one, I suppose) in which there is now the Manufactura. Owing to its rapid industrial expantion, the city was once a "promised land" for many people, Polish, as well as foreign, which was brilliantly depicted in a novel "Ziemia obiecana" by Władysław Reymont, the Polish Nobel prize winner in literature in 1924 for the book "Chłopi"; the book was later transferred onto the screen by Andrzej Wajda (the film nearly won an Oscar prize).

Language / MLEĆ VERB - EVEN NATIVE POLES MUCK UP THIS [6]

"Panie Profesorze!
Dlaczego czasownik mleć i zemleć ma taką trudną odmianę? Większośc Polaków nie umie go odmieniać poprawnie. Powiem więcej, nawet studenci filologii polskiej mają z tym czasownikiem kłopot. Skąd się wzięła taka trudna odmiana? Czy nie warto by było uprościć ją. Po co ma być męłłem w czasie przeszłym. Nie może być po prostu mieliłem? Skoro większość Polaków nie używa poprawnej odmiany, po co na siłę ją utrzymywać?

Nie jest tak źle, jak Pan pisze. Nawet zachowawcze jak zwykle słowniki poprawnej polszczyzny w nowych wydaniach zaaprobowały już formy mielić, mielił itp. Aprobata ma, co prawda, charakter warunkowy – wymienione formy uznano za należące do normy potocznej, a nie wzorcowej. I słusznie, bo w tekstach pisanych wciąż przeważają formy mleć, mełł itp., zgodne z tradycją.

---------------------------------------- Mirosław Bańko"

So, mleć is an old, traditional form, whereas mielić is a modern one of the same verb; the latter has only been accepted to the dictionaries since the 1990s.

Language / MLEĆ VERB - EVEN NATIVE POLES MUCK UP THIS [6]

True, it's a pretty awful verb, and I wouldn't have even noticed that people use different forms hadn't you paid attention to it. If I were a shop assistant, I would use "zmielić" (it appears incorrectly, as you say!), but I would definitely use "miele jęzorem" instead of "mieli jęzorem". I don't know where those differences in usage come from.

Language / Masculine Accusitive / Genitive - fruit, vegetables... [7]


I didn't say it was incorrect. I did say that in trams in Warsaw you could see official urgings to give up your seat to an elderly or a disabled person using with the verb "ustąpić" the accusative case instead of the genetive case ("ustąpić komuś miejsce - accusative"). I was just illustrating the thesis that the accusative shows expansion in the modern Polish language by tending to replace the genetive case in positions where the verb have only been taking the latter until quite recently.

Genealogy / COUNT AND COUNTESS DECROIX [15]


They may have lived near this park, in that case they may have lived in Al. Ujazdowskie street, the street that opposes the park from the west. Once the street hosted many residences belonging to noble families (now it hosts many embassies, included the ugly American one which was erected on a place made free thanks to the barbaric demolishing of one such historic residence by the Yanks). But they may have lived near another park, including one which doesn't even exist today.

What seems to be mysterious is the name of the hotel: Mirror Lake Hotel. I can't think of any "jezior(k)o lustrzane" in Warsaw. Maybe "Morskie Oko" (Sea Eye)?

P.S. The £azienki Park belonged to king Stanisław Poniatowski, but later became the property of the Russian Tsars; as soon as Poland regained independence, it bacame public property, I believe.

Language / Podobać się vs Lubić [13]

In the absence of Świtezianka (yes, she was really good and truly profesional in her explanations) who doesn't seem to visit the site any more, let me say that the correct form is: "to mięso (neutral noun) mi nie smakuje". You can also say, however, "to mięso mi się nie podoba" with the sense that you don't like the look of it as it may not be fresh, for example.

Language / Masculine Accusitive / Genitive - fruit, vegetables... [7]

There is an ongoing battle between the genetive and the accusative case in Poland. Thus:
some users (most of them) will say: Jem czerwonego pomidora;
others (usually younger ones, but still in a minority) will say: Jem czerwony pomidor.

The correct one is the former since the latter hasn't been recognised officially as yet as a parallel option to the use of the genetive with certain verbs. Nevertheless, you may even spot the "new" usage in public places such as trams in Warsaw where you can read: "Proszę, ustąp mi miejsce" (istead of "miejsca").

Life / What should be done to make life in Poland better and more enjoyable? [94]

Nothing should happen to make life better in Poland. Life in Poland is good!

Ziemowit (tanie wino jest dobre, bo jest tanie i dobre)

Language / Declension of "-ość" - miłość / zieleń [19]

I fully agree with the preceding post of Cinek. There is really no need to use the noun zieleń in the vocative case. If there is such a need, the noun should be declined in the same way as other feminine nouns ending in -ć or -ść are declined, e.g. radość -> radości, dobroć -> dobroci, miłość -> miłości (O miłości ty moja!).

"Zielenio!, koscio!, nowościo!" forms do seem very awkward, though some people may try to use them (lacking the idea of how to form such vocatives properly).

Language / Praca vs robota [16]

"Robota" seems to be an all-Slavic word. The noun "robot" which was first used in a Czech novel as formed on the original Czech word "robota" was later imported into English with the same meaning as in the novel, that is a "humanoid machine which does boring and dull work". "Robot" is one of the very few examples of words of Slavic origin in the English language.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Poland did not loose its independence in 1772. It was the year of the first partition after which the country still existed on an area of approx. 500.000 sq. m., which was roughly of the size of today's France. Principal reforms to the country's political system had been introduced after that date, reforms which in fact led to the Russian military intervention as Catherine II did want of Poland a vasal state, not a sovereign one. Generations deperately waited for an independence afterwards and gave their share of blood for it (with villages of Polish descendants still existing to this day in Siberia as a result of thousands of insurgents sent there by the Tsarist regime). We indeed lost our independence in 1792 as a result of a lost war with Russia, after which the 3rd of May Constitution and most of the reforms were eradicated. Formally, however, the independence was lost in January 1795.

It is true, however, that the Piłsudski military movement for independence didn't get much attention from the ethnic Polish population at first before and after 1914. There are numerous reports saying that the Polish people were shutting window covers when Józef Piłsudski's legions marched through towns of the Kingdom of Congress (such as Kielce, if I remember well). There are also numerous reports that it was the Russian army which the Polish population of the then Congress Kingdom called "our army", instead of assigning this patriotic name to the Piłsudski legions! The mood had changed later on, of course, but it should be stressed that the independence (definitely fought for by Poland owing to the most favorable external circumstances, and not at all granted by the treaty of Versailes) was so unexpected for the Polish people that the saying reflecting this suddeness: Ni z tego, ni z owego, a tu Polska na pierwszego, was very popular in the first months which followed the event.

Language / What is this type of word called and others like it? uwydatniając [14]

Ystad: Is that nearly right?

It is, though I've read another, perhaps simpler explanation, in a tiny, very good book of Polish grammar "Gramatyka polska" from the series "sms> system mądrego szukania" published by ParkEdukacja. (It might interest you that there is also a "Gramatyka niemiecka" in the series!)

In forming the past adverbial participle, you may use one of the two endings, depending on whether the past tense root of a given perfective verb ends in a vowel or in a consonant.

1. If it ends in the former (vowel), the ending is -wszy: zrobi-wszy, zapomnia-wszy, przeczyta-wszy.

2. If it ends in the latter (consonant), the ending is -łszy: przyszed-łszy, zjad-łszy, wybieg-łszy

I may perhaps add that the majority of verb roots in the past tense will end in a vowel, so only a few of them should need the -łszy ending.


This sentence should have been addressed to Lyzko who is German, I believe, instead of having been addressed to you. I'm indeed sorry to have mistaken you for him (it is probably because the two of you two have similar problems in struggling with the Polish grammar)!

Language / What is this type of word called and others like it? uwydatniając [14]


Very true! When I speak without following the rules of colloquial speech, my wife usually says: You sound as if you were reading a newspaper!

[Szczera pawda! Jeśli wpowiadam się niezgodnie z regułami języka potocznego, moja żona napomina mnie: Mówisz tak, jakbyś czytał gazetę!]


A tricky one! Some might have said: przyszedłwszy, but it would have been a mistake. Why? Maybe a homework for Ystad to answer this ...?

Language / What is the name for "I would", is it conditional mood or something else? [12]


The funny thing about it is that the third conditional can still be very rarely heard among Polish speakers. I was truly amazed to hear a rather young voice using it spontaneously and in a most natural way on the radio about half a year ago. Obviously, you won't hear the Past Perfect tense being used in the streets or in a shop, but it can occasionally be quite useful in a intellectual discussion on the radio to make the speaker sound precise and elegant. The other funny thing about it is that the old and middle-age generation (I'm not sure about the young generation) can still be sure about its grammatical forms (which are easy), though they don't seem to use them in their everyday life.


Just for the curosity of some PF members - the above sentence with the use of the Polish Past Perfect tense (czas zaprzeszły):
Gdybym był wygrał w lotto, kupiłbym był nowy dom.

Travel / Can't find my passport do I need it to travel from Poland to Czech Rep.? [11]


That's what I thought. Identification is somewhat different than regular passport control, therefore it's best to check with the airline.

Travel / Can't find my passport do I need it to travel from Poland to Czech Rep.? [11]

I shall ask with your airline or read it in the regulations concerning their air tickets as it is the airline who checks your identification when boarding a plane.

Travel / Can't find my passport do I need it to travel from Poland to Czech Rep.? [11]

As a Polish citizen, I only need an identity card to travel within the EU (though I may still show my passport to them instead). I'm not sure, however, if you need a passport for travelling within the Schengen zone (Czech Republic) once you have already entered the zone (Poland). I think it is the zone that matters here rather than the territory of the EU itself (these are not the same). In the Schengen zone, all passport control is abandoned, though customs control may still be carried on).

Life / What is assumption day in Poland? [18]


Assumption Day is by no means only "Polish". In Polish it's called "Dzień Wniebowzięcia Najświętszej Marii Panny". In Latin they call it "Assumptio Beatae Mariae Virginis in coelum".


The new definition of the Assumption Day is quite interesting. It well reflects the shift of the population of Europe from Christianity to laicism in our times. In this respect MareGaea is not an idiot; he feels well the pulse of the modern Europe.

Life / Foreign fake license plates in Poland [25]

If tj123 and Harry had nothing to comment on that, I am the one who fils the gap: your wheel cover must have been stolen by a Pole who came to Belgium (this is because your car had Polish plates on it). As to explaining why it never happened to you in Warsaw, it needs some more investigation, I'm afraid ...

Language / Things Polish people who speak English language say [180]

I think the word "time" in the English expression "last time" is best rendered by the word "raz" in Polish.

To ostatni raz, kiedy [coś robię]!.
Ostatnim razem kiedy się widzieliśmy, byłaś bardzo nieszczęśliwa.

"Ostatnio/niedawno" gives un unspecified period of time.

[Btw, don't you say in French: récemment (lately) vs. dernière fois (last time)?

Language / PARANOJA -- MISUSED IN POLISH? [20]


Indeed, if he said "another example of this kind is that in Wales 7 year-old children are called students ...", it probably won't provoke such a reaction on your part. It is true that Polish people are often over-sensitive to what has been said about Poland (a very interesting article on that in yesterday's "Rzeczpospolita" *) while there is really no need for this. I remember Mrs. Tchatcher being constantly insulted in the press and TV in the 1980s, but my British friends explained that she would have never been leaving courts of justice if she wanted to do something about it. In contrast to that, president Lech Kaczyński wished to take a low-ranking German newspaper to court just for having called him a "potato"; the paper then apologised to the potato for comparing it to president Kaczyński. Everyone had a good laugh just because Lech Kaczyński over-reacted to the comment which is of usual type in the free (satirical) press. The reason for the Polish sensivity may come from the fact that we in Poland have been living for a long time in a dependent and totalitarian state where we felt "conquered" yet very proud people, so those who criticize us are unfair as they criticize "victims" who are still in need of compassion. People in the West do not understand it and are usually surprised by the Polish reaction.

------------------
* "Dlaczego patrzą na nas z góry" by Zdzisław Krasnodębski, a leading Polish sociologist, professor of the university of Bremen (Germany) and UKSW in Warsaw.

Language / PARANOJA -- MISUSED IN POLISH? [20]

The term is used in both senses: 1) strictly medical and 2) colloquial with the meaning as you said.

1) Ten człowiek cierpi na paranoję. To paranoik.
2) Lech Kaczyński został prezydentem, a jego brat-bliźniak premierem. Paranoja!

Language / words overused in Polish language [40]

"Dokładnie" is awful. It is used by people who want to appear more intelligent than they feel they really are. In my view, it masks a deep inferiority complex in a person; nevertheless instead of lying down on a psyhoanalyst's couch, they go round admitting everything what another person said with the wise-sounding "dokładnie", a word copied for that particular sense from the English word "exactly". In doing so, they think they promote themselves to higher ranks, but all they get is sounding extremely stupid.

People who abuse "po prostu" are good-natured and straightforward folk. Yet they also display a certain inferiority complex. The best example of this type is perhaps my former astronomy teacher at college. She had the looks of a most ordinary, a little obese, Polish housewife, yet her knowledge of astronomy was enormous. To reduce the contrast between her style and looks and her excellent competence in astronomy, she constantly and subconsciously threw in "po prostu" while explaining to us the reasons behind the explosions of supernovas in the Universe.