Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Nie wiem, Michalku. Prosze mi powiedziec! -:)
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

? Then perhaps I, silly Yank that I am, failed to understand the answer. Did you in fact have time to assimilate the information in my initial post on this query?

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Yes, but the title of the original post was "What is the difference between prosze and poprosze?", which is what I attempted to elucidate!

Apologies for the confusion.
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Then the title of the post is misleading!
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Dannyboy!
Don't wish to appear rude, but the borsht (sorry, proper Polish "barszczt..")-belt humor is rather out of place, plus, your remarks essentially teach us nothing.

Guess I seem the proverbial sour-pickle puss, but, the last part particularly rubbed me the wrong way.

Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

"Sluchac" is merely the infinitive form, "slucham" is the first person singular for "I'm listening."or "I listen", since in English we represent changes in time through tenses, Polish, through aspects.

"Slucham!" is also a way to answer the phone in Polish, meaning "I'm hearing/listening to/you.."

Marek

Dannyboy,

Indeed it was "humorous", in a purely sophomoric way. -:)
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

Touché, Danny-me Boy!! -:)
Well, once a grump (speaking about myself, of course!), always a grump.

Marek

You did indeed, Michal. Onset of senility on my end.
Marek

Language / what is the difference between prosze and poprosze? [39]

EXACTLY!! Tyczkowaty's saying what I/we've/ been saying all along: perfective vs. imperfective is expressed by the presence or absence of a certain prefix, e.g. "po-", "prze-", "z-" etc.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

....because, Osiol, a higher standard is attached to Polish, not to English.
I find this a great pity, since this simply devalues the level of English.

Poles who learn English shold learn to appreciate the greatness of the language, say, Gilbert & Sullivan, much as we who learn Polish should learn to love its melodic and consonant-heavy literature, much less, the clangour of Iwaszkiewicz, Tuwim and other!

Marek

Language / [Phrase of the Day]: English to Polish [37]

"Ktora godzina?"jest najlepszy i najlatwiej!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

".......much less..."= nie mniejszy...
You may have misunderstood the typical English-language turn of phrase "much less" in my post, apologies.
I simply meant, that we come to love the depth, certainly not any less, the beautiful sound of Polish, distinctive in it's consonant clusters as compared, say, with Italian, Finnish, Hawaian, where the vocalic is far more apparent to the ear than often in Polish, German or indeed, Czech.

I see you're a translator as well. From Polish to English, English to Polish or both? I'm a German to English/English-German translator and interpreter, but I know Polish fluently (though not always "accurately").

Czy jestes Polka? Czytalem, ze mieszkasz w Anglii, ale nie wiedzialem, czy jestes z Polski.
Pozdrawiam!

Marek

Language / Double negative in Polish language [24]

Osiól,
Also possible is "Nigdy nie widzialem.."= I've never seen/I never saw. (literally: "Never not seen..")

Powodzenia!
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Serwus, Magda!
No, tylko trzy lata temu a jednak juz umiesz taki idiomatycznie po angielsku, ale bez "akcentu obcego" w twoim pisanym jezyku angielskim??!! Takze masz humor naszego jezyka. Jestes Jozefa Konradem, poniewaz on byl Polakiem, ktory lepiej pisal po angielsku niz po swoim jezyku ojcowym. Ale jego imienie bylo "Jozef"!

Jestem zdumiony.
Zostawimy w kontaktu

Wszystkiego najlepszego!
Marek

By the by, Magda. Mark Twain once remarked in "Straszny jezyk niemiecki" (Die schreckliche deutsche Sprache - The Awful German Language) that he'd rather decline two drinks than one German adjective, apropos:

Meine schoenen neuen Schuhe (Moje piekne nowe buty) etc.

Marek (To be continued, I'm sure)

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Puzzler,

For instance, a younger Pole, approximately 25, remarked recently (apparently keen on practicing his English, and he needed to, believe me!!) "Hey, I just got buzzed, ya know?", to which I politely responded in English, although Polish would have been easier, just to humor him now, "Oh, drinking too much?" To which he insisted (explitives deleted@$#^##&!!! etc.), "buzzed" means to have gotten a haircut. "You mean 'clipped', I believe!" He refused to accept it.

A Pole once asked if the US has great authors, like Mickiewicz and Slowacki in Poland. I replied, "Mamy poetów, n.pr. Dunbara, Whitmana, Emilii Dickensona itd.." She, a university student, claimed to have heard of none of them.

I rest my case!
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Magda,
Presumably, she was a generalist ( The Catholic University of Lublin), her university is considered the best in Poland (she said so herself!) and so I can only attribute her educational lapse to plain ignorance!

"Dumb linguist"??--:) Are you "sparing" with me again Magdo, or kidding as per usual?

Marek

Chwileczke! Nie, ona nie studiowala matymatyke, lecz rolnictwo, przepraszam!

That makes a big difference, agriculture or mathematics. Know what the difference is here in the States? About $50, 000.00 bucks!! he-he!

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Grzegorz.

Bylem zly, bo jak umiesz znac jezyka, bez kultury w tej ten jezyk mowiony?
How can you claim to know a language without knowing the literature in which that language is written?

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Sofi,

Absolutely correct! It limits and dilutes their impressions of the new language. If people at least admitted their lack of familiarity with literature as preventing a deeper and more rewarding, i.e. accurate, level of understanding,....no problem.

To say though, "Oh, come on Marek! I've never read Twain, Hemingway etc.. and I understand EVRYTHING!" is plain false. This becomes most apparent when an educated native speaker of a language uses a pithy, elegant phrase from a play, poem or novel to highlight a point and the other person, the foreigner, is left annoyed and clueless!

Whose fault is that? I't not the native speaker's job to "dumb down" their level of language for non-natives who haven't taken the time or love to really absorb the target culture!!

Marek

Recently. I was conversing with a German colleague. At first, we began (of course!) in German. Later, at her insistance, I switched to English, just to be social. So far so good. I proceeded, drawing upon famous American expressions, i.e. "until you see the whites of their eyes." etc., quotes familiar to the average educated US-native speaker, to stress what I was trying to say. My colleague then proceeded to say, my quote was incorrect English, and that it should be "by the time you see the whites in their eyes" which is of course nonsense. Firstly, it's not the original quote, secondly, here's another instance of a foreigner pretending to know more about English than an educated native speaker, instead of freely admitting, "Say, Marek. Ya know, I'm not sure I know what you mean!"

And such happens with dramatic regularity.

Marek

Bookratt,

My advice to you is to start with simple short stories, preferrably from the modern era, e.g. Orzeszkowa, Rozewicz, Andrzejewski etc. just to get your feet wet. Poetry can be immensely difficult and frustrating, even in one's native language. Therefore, I would avoid it if I can.

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Hiya there, 'ol Magda, 'ol girl!

Orzeszkowa dated????!! I suppose Shakespeare, Dante (oops, he's Italian sorry about that), Milton, Dickens etc.. are "dated"? Hmmm, what qualifies "ancient" status here... very interesting.

Is it the age or the quality that counts? The Tatry mountains are probably thousands of years older than any man, but does that make them any less pleasurable??

I guess I can't quite follow the logic.

Marek

PS
Recently, some Polish friends were aguing about their country and the lack of patriotism they perceive. During the conversation, in Polish naturally, one said "Jeszcze Polska nie zginela!" Had I not known your national anthem, I couldn't have caught the gist!!

I've read Jerzy Kozinski, Ryszard Kapuczynski and several other "contemporary" Polish authors in the original. -:) Most enjoyable.
Marek

Serwus, Magda!

Znam "czytankow". Oni nazywaja sie "Lesebuecher" po niemiecku.
Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Magda,
Generational categories are not always barometers for taste or cultural acumen. Indeed, Orzeszkowa is "quaint" insofar as perhaps contemporary Germans might find Fontane slightly old-fashioned prose, or Americans Walt Whitman, for example.

I haven't read as much Polish as I have German, English or other continental literature to judge the accuracy of your assertions, therefore, i shall have to take your word for it!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Serwus, Magdo!

Zupelnie zgadzam sie z Toba w tej sytuacji w zwiazku z "przestarzalymi" autorami, n.pr. Orzeszkowa itd.
It's quite true that certain writers age badly. I would add though, that in order to have the kind of language command that, say, you apparently have, in English, for instance, requires a depth of vocabulary at one's finger tips, so to speak, which can only be gleaned from going "beneath the tip of the iceberg", as it were, and ingesting older as well as more contemporary literature.

In brief, slang without standard, is like the flesh of a human body without a skeleton as its foundation!
Marek

Magda,
About Whitman, I'm not sure I agree here. Language is a product of culture. Culture is a product, i.e. bi-product, of its history. Therefore, listening to Whitman without understanding in general what was behind those beautiful words, is like enjoying an aesthetic experience in a vacuum. It is namely incomplete! Can we understand, e.g. Mickiewicz without understanding Polish history, regardless of how lovely/powerful the poetic diction may be?

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Magda,
True enough. Indeed, "vacuum" was just my word choice. I simply meant that appreciating the aesthetics of language/literature is limited if operating in isolation, i.e. blissful ignorance, of the context, historical or otherwise, within which the literature was conceived.

Take Mickiewicz. The opening lines of PAN TADEUSZ "Litwo, Ojczyno moja!..." may sound beautiful, but without knowing in advance that, in fact, the poet was actually a half-Lithuanian by birth, the listener as well as the reader misses the overall meaning of the lines, in the end, that which endows them with their beauty!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

"Did I have to study Mickiewicz beforehand...?"

Well, it would make the reference a lot clearer.
Marek

Mihal,
Sorry to disillusion you, but it is rather English that is "dying on the world stage", and not Polish or German, the latter at least, still immensely practical, since, when foreign German majors DO actually speak German, generally, they know what they're doing, unlike the Germans who take all too many liberties with American slang and often don't know their arses from their elbows about grammar, idiom or style!!!

Marek

PS
In Florida, New York, LA and Chicago, Korean, Spanish, Russian and Chinese have long since trumped English as the reigning lingua franca. Perhaps, indeed hopefully in Britain, it's slightly different

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Osiol =quote "Across the US, I believe it is still English."

If you count misspelled signage in major US-cities, requisite bilingual directions for every public service institution, the fact that in the New York area, "Telemundo Uno" has more listeners than Fox 5 News ever had and that in certain communities throughout the country, English is NOT REQUIRED even for voting and obtaining a valid driving license, frankly, I'm no longer so sure.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Michal.

"Who..?" The Eastern European States, among them our Polish friends. German is still THE required second language of science throughout most of the civilized world, at least, at universities. Only in the areas of informational science has German been trumped by English! I think you're asking a question purposely to which you already know the answer, just to bait me slightly, which is perfectly fine, incidentally, I certainly don't take offense. My exchanges thus far in this forum have always been most cordial and I presume they shall continue so.

German is admittedly a much more precise language than English. As Polish, for example, has it's demanding aspectual usage compared with our rather vague series of tenses, German uses word order, case agreement and various conditional voices to a far greater degree of exactness than does English. As this is a Polish-English, and not a German-language, forum, I shall spare us all the litany of German difficulties.

A final note. As a translator, the rate per word/hr. in German as well as the major Slavic languages, is twice as high as in Spanish, considered an infinitely less "challenging" language! Hence, I decided to specialize in German and Slavic languages (surprise, surprise--:) )

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

"Who learns German?" begs the question. Unlike Latin or Ancient Greek, both 'dead languages', so to speak, German was always the language which bound both East and West, geopolitically. While Germans never had to learn f. ex. Polish, Poles, Russians, Hungarians and others, ALL had to learn German, a language, much as with Russian, English or Chinese, of tremendous historical, therefore, economic, importance!

Marek

PS
Don't forget either, East Germany, a former Soviet satelite, required Russian instruction in its schools, not English!

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Soli,

A myth about German is it's harsh sound. Really, it depends as much upon the region where it is spoken as both what is being spoken as well as the stereotypes brought to it from movies, etc.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Osiol,

Hitler, as you know, was not even German, but Austrian! His accent however is Bavarian, to be exact, "Upper German", such as the type still heard today in and around Nuernberg, technically called "Franconian" (Fraenkisch). The latter roll their "r" sounds on the tip of the tongue (not the uvular or gutteral "r" of, say, French or Northern Standard German), appear to overpronounce schwa-sounds such as final "e" letters in words such as "muedE", "FuessE" etc., soften their "s" sounds, and in general, sound hauntingly similar to the Fuehrer's accent, as often caricatured!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Michal,

quote = "They didn't speak it at all...."

Probably their Russian language competence far exceeded their English, but, being post-war Germans, wouldn't (or couldn't!) admit as much, since Russian wasn't exactly considered "cool" --:):)

Silly!

Marek

Michal,

Foreign languages were never terribly popular in the UK, French perhaps, being the notable exception.

I have met a few Brits taking holiday on the Continent who actually DID manage a few smidges of German during the time I was visiting Berlin, but they were the rare few, to be sure. Such tourists one could count on the fingers of one hand (if he were missing two fingers!!)

Marek

PS
More often than not though, I'm afraid the majority I've encountered seem to take a bit of the benighted attitude of John Cleese's Basil Faulty character in "The Germans", i.e. "Oh, they don't speak English?? Well then, that's their problem now, isn't it!", heard snapping when asked if he could assist a group of monolingual German visitors to the hotel.

In the Greenpoint district of Brooklyn, New York, not far from where my wife and I live, Polish day schools, nurseries etc. have been springing up like mad of late.

Typical though of numerous immigrant communities here in the US, often native Poles, Chinese, Russians etc. are hired to be, of all things, English-language instructors for their own at local schools, institutes etc.

Many Poles, for instance, therefore learn accented, grammatically poor English from Polish teachers who often don't have a good enough command of the target language!!

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

........thus further polluting the English mother tongue!!!
Yet another disgrace. To wstyt, ze panstwo nie zakazac illegalne szkoly.

Marek

Language / Should I learn both Polish and German [147]

Michal.

As you know from my Forum-Profile, I am, among other things, a foreign-language instructor of both English and German, as well as a translator.
English seems to be one of the few, if not the only language with which I'm familiar, which can be rountinely butchered with impunity by non-native speakers, let alone, so-called specialists. As the "world language", it seems to have become world public property too, meaning, any and all can get their paws all over the language, frequently without ANY qualifications!

To be a Polish instructor, on the other hand, at either the Kosciuszko or Pilsudski Institutes in New York, being merely a bilingual Pole from Greenpoint, Bklyn, USA is not enough: you've got to be a native Pole, born and preferrably educated, in Poland!!

And that's how it should be for all languages (unless, like those such as myself, true, unaccented native fluency can be attested to in both languages being taught). That is to say, although I speak Polish, Dutch or Swedish and several other languages, I would never profess to being competent enough to teach or translate INTO them. Except in my case for German, no institution would hire me for same and be worth much of anything!

Marek