History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]

LOL- so how come the famous(or infamous for the German Luftwaffe ) Kosciuszko Squadron- 303 and 301, composed entirely of Polish fighter pilots flew with British RAF- by the end of Battle of Britain, was credited with downing more German planes than any other.9 of it's pilot's were acknowledged as Aces. Alongside, 1700 Polish airmen fought with RAF during WW2.

None marched in the British celebrations, or took part in the fly-by's.
They were (specifically) banned by British Govt. fearing offending Comrade Stalin.
That's gratitude.
An easy read for those interested is "A Question of Honor." or "For Your Freedom and Ours" by Lynne Olson a nd Stanley Cloud.

Same book, different titles.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]

Quote #67.Frank.
All right, I accept your point of view- then why agree in the first place to a three way Polish, British, French treaty to mobilise within 2 weeks to come to each other's aid.So sorry I forgot- British aid consisted of dropping leaflets during the "Phony War" to the Germans. This contribution really helped...And Chamberlain was still stalling whilst Poland was being hammered, until Churchill ousted him.The French, on their way to aid Poland, stopped off in the Black Forrest, had a picnic , then went home. So on Sept.17,1939 instead of French help we received the Russians- also our Allies, from the East who scavenged what the Germans had destroyed North, West and South.

Secondly, the plan was to "sell out Poland" -yet Polish help was taken, never reciprocated, no thanks needed.
Thirdly, perhaps Churchill should have refrained from blatatantly lying eg to General W. Anders:August 26 1944,
"Great Britain entered this war in defence of the principle of your indepence, and I can assure you that we wil never desert you.....Great Britain..pledged and undertook the obligations for the existence of Poland as a free, independent, sovereign and great state...free from any alien interference."

"I and my friend President Roosevelt, who will again be elected President, will never abandon Poland. Put put your trust in us."
Perhaps I misunderstood you- did you mean POLISH interpretation of being sold out?
This is an INTERNATIONAL interpretation. Whether the Poles were at the table in Tehran despite Churchill's lies "You will be present at the conference" or not is irrellevant- the decisions made are.

History / Katyn- forgiven and forgotten? [111]


Obviously not.Keep their memory alive, lay a flower at one of the monuments , bow your head in respect- it doesn't cost much in time or money, read books(myself I have, only 2- one by Abarinov the Russian journalist and Fitzgibbon)-discuss what You know, clarify for those who don't- a forum is an excellent place-already I have discovered 2 people here who needed clarification.Poles- our Fathers, Mothers, Grand-parents know what happened but have stoically carried this wound silently- surely as the next generation to do nothing is to do our Officers and Intelligentsia a great disservice. I recently discovered Rev. Msgr. Peszkowski- the same priest who said a prayer and laid a crucifix on each of the dead in the open graves in Katyn working tirelesly consoling the families has had a motion to nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize. Ironic - the one man the Soviets released from Kozielsk is the same who through his work and documentaries has shown the Soviets what they have done.


No, Thank- You Ranj and all others for reading my post and comments.
An excellent web-site I found which has photo's of monuments people have sent in from all over the world ,the Katyn cemetery and easy reading of this tragedy is

Katyn.org.au

(for those interested)
Regards, Anielka

History / Katyn- forgiven and forgotten? [111]



So let's go back:
From 1943, the bodies discovered in 8 mass graves in the Katyn Forest( covered up with conifers) by the Germans C.I.C. Sikorski appealed to the Internation Red Cross for help with an investigation- to no avail. Soviets would not agree and severed all diplomatic ties with Poland.

The Germans set up their own investigation:Russian witnesses living in the area were interviewed and recorded. A commission consisting of professors of medicine and representatives from the Institutes of Forensic Medicine and Criminology of European Uni's from Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark,Finland, Croatia, Italy, Holand, Romania, Switzerland, Slovakia, Yugoslavia and Hungary arrived. They came to the same conclusion- they died March, April, may 1940 by a single bullet in the nape of the neck, many had sawdust stuffed in their mouths, broken jaws, coats covering their heads, many with the stab wounds used by the fluted Russian bayonets and hands tied behind their backs- by experienced executioners.The clothing consisted of any typical Polish uniform, with medals,badges and personal documents.The report was concluded 1943.Interesting to note the Commission members received no academic distinctions-, or payment.They received train tickets and their hotel bills were settled.

The British response? "The Issue should be avoided" Winston Churchill.
The American response? Roosevelt to US Minister George H Earle re report on Katyn " I spefically forbid you to publish any information or opinion....you might have acquired while in office or in the service of the US Navy "

A report from British Sir Owen O'Malley to then British Foreign Secretary Sir Anthony Eden, 11/2/1944: " Let us.... speak of them never. To speak of them never is the advice I have been giving to the Polish Govt., but it has been unnecessary.They have received the Russian report in silence."........ Surely then as Katyn was listed as a war crime it would be addressed at the Nuremberg Trials?

7/1/1946: Dr Hans Laternser( Counsel for General Staff and High Command of the German Armed Forces);
" May I have the question put to the Prosecution, who is to be made responsible for the Katyn case? "
Sir Geoffrey Lawrence( British Justice and president of the Court);
" I do not propse to answer questions of that sort." The matter was dropped.
1945-1989: No chance of any redress under the Communist Regime.
To date , despite repeated Polish calls to address this, the Russians refuse any responsibility- Gorbachov and Yeltsin's brief acknowledgment means nothing.
So, given this info I'm interested how you see forgiving and moving on (not to mention to the families) to happen?
Revenge? I do not want revenge. I do not want compensation- there are not enough rubles in the world. An apology from the current Govt. would be a start, with the whereabouts of the remaining Poles, so that we can bury our own- still they and us have waited 66 years, we can wait 60 more.


I Thank-You.

History / Katyn- forgiven and forgotten? [111]


Why would Poles be embarrassed or frightened to bring it up again-repeatedly to the Russians -no-one else has- it's been made clear by the International Community that it is a Polish problem.

Of course it's high on the agenda- I repeat ,yet another attempt was made in 2006.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]


Why should Poles pay for French soldiers at Verdun- Verdun had nothing to do with Poland's independence- but if you want to look at it from this angle, how much did France pay for Polish soldiers slaughtered in Bonaparte's Army.


Yes with Solidarnosc, the internal support of of the Church, the foresight of General Jaruzelski to impose Martial Law: while Russian tanks waited on our border ready to repeat Hungary's bloodbath. Poland started the fall of Communism, while the world watched and waited, no International support expected or needed.

We did not have President Reagan commanding Mr Gorbachov, Tear down that wall,as in East Berlin.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]


It,s not because you are English, but because some of your remarks were some of your remarks were based on ignorance and seen as offensive- esp. towards Poles.I am happy to help you in any way I can.Don't give up- and please contact me if you change your mind.(I love History -still learning).I won't say Goodbye- instead - For Now!

Best wishes,Anielka.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]


OK. I'll try, in part,- the Germans called their warfare "Blitzkrieg". They called the Allied warfare "Sitzkrieg" -translated- sitting on your backsides. German Generals have stated,irrevocably, that had the UK or France( with all her arms) attacked the North- Western border eg northern France, Belgium, Holland- Germany would have retreated. They freely admit a 2 front war was beyond their capabilities. Although, I must agree with you Frank the Brit. made a token effort of dropping leaflets on German capital cities-flying low and making sure the leaflets were not bundled, fearing German casualties.

You're right again, GB did sit cringing- appeasing Hitler continuously.The Munich Agreement signed 30/9/1938 signed by Chamberlain, Daladier, Mussolini and Hitler sealed the fate of Poland and the other Baltic countries- especially with Chamberlain's machinations of pressuring Hacha to capitulate " for the greater good" after Hitler taking advantage of the Agreement, crossed the Sudentland into Czechoslovakia.

From the Allied point of view, they needed the Russian forces- by this time it would have wishful thinking of Germany and Russia destroying each other.

Still, Churchill entertained hopes to change matters post War regarding Russia " the men who hold power at the present will not keep it.....in consequence of this war two great powers , Germany and Japan, will disappear. Russia will remain. And the United States and Great Britain will possess huge stores of aircraft, guns, and tanks." More wishful thinking.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]



The German Generals were adamant that fighting on 2 fronts eg Poland and the North-Western border would not have been possible at the time in - to them it was not hindsight , supposition but reality.

The murdered discovered in Katyn( initially in 1943 ) numbers @15,000.
In 2006, murdered Polish Officers, soldiers, Intelligentsia, together with Ukranian, BeloRussian and others were discovered in mass graves outside Kiev numbering 200,000-300,000, the Ukranian Govt. is conducting an investigation.


I was agreeing with this point- by this time it was wishful thinking- the time to have acted by the Allies had long since gone - instead of insisting to the Poles NOT to mobilise, so as not to antagonise Hitler. The Poles moved their outdated planes anyway and camoflaged them, so at least they had something to go up against the Germans while waiting for Britain and more so- France to honor their treaty and waited and waited......

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]

mmm...bit vague- perhaps he means GB and France. The fact remains because of their pre-war machinations Hitler's door to Poland was open. Their refusal to honor the treaty Poland meant Poland, acting in good faith( would have been good of them to inform Poland they weren't going to) capitulated 28 days later and continued to fight in pockets on 4 fronts.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]


I too learnt only through Enlish History. Some was picked up listening in on my parent's spirited discussions with acquantainces, where I should not have been and inevitably was chased away. Then I discovered books. "Prog after prog" - good,bad? To make a statement is easy, better to back it with facts- in Poland's case this is complex, takes explanation. All that was left to Poland was the truth, to gloss over or distort it is to take that too.

So sorry,forgot the g in English-apols.

History / Poland has paid £68 Million for helping UK in WW2 [168]


Absolutely right- although Albert Spiel did show remorse at the Nuremberg Trials. Was it genuine- according to him it was , or to save his own skin? Still, at least the Germans took their punishment and in part atoned eg releasing masses of info regarding the atrocities and their part in the war via archives , libraries. The Russians, who should have been sitting in the same docks as the Germans happily took part in meting out punishment and never answered for their war crimes at Nuremberg. and covered up their own crimes- in comparison to Hitler, Hitler's pales significantly. Why do think Russia is not in the EU? Perhaps so they do not have to admit their atrocities and continue to be answerable to no-one.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I saw footage of Polish cavalry attacking German tanks with sabres and lances supposedly when Germany invaded. In fact, this German propanda film( You have to hand it to them their propanda was pretty good ) shot on and around Oct./November 1939 on the fields of Blonie( about 30 km west of Warsaw). The "Polish Cavalry" in fact German soldiers dressed in Polish uniforms were taught how to "attack" and fall from the horse without hurting themseves. All this was greedily swallowed up by the World Press as fact despite eye-witness accounts. One eye-witness? My Father- taken along by his Father.

What is true was that the Polish Cavalry did charge the German tanks on horseback with hastily bundled hand grenades, about 6 to a bundle called 'Philippines' which ruptured the caterpillar, effectively immobilizing a tank and making it a sitting duck for the good quality plentiful Polish Anti-tank guns.The German Tank Commander General Guderian etimated 15-20% German tank losses.He viewed the Polish Anti-tank Units with a high respect. Why? .........That would be another prog.

USA, Canada / the collective consciousness of the polish-american community [4]


It's a small country in the middle of 2 more powerful ones, whose passionate people have lived, fought and died for it's freedom since it's conception.You'll have enough stories for a book, not a paper- here's a small one.My Father's acquantaince has a curved sabre, @ 1800's given to her by her Father on his deathbed- as the oldest child he charged her with it's safekeeping.She knew nothing about it, where it came from, whose it is, she has fulfilled her Father's wish- it's kept wrapped in cloth, ready to be passed on to her son- lot's more where that came from, if You wish e-mail me. Regards.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


I can see no evidence of him living in the past- he's simply quoting history. I cannot find sources to contradict him but would appreciate any pointers to references from You Miranda.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


As far as I know Lwow was a Polish city, on Polish soil until in @1945 when the Communists gave Lwow to the Ukranians, and Wilno to the Lithuanians. At this time Ukraine was in effect a state of USSR.


History is based on facts, although I understand in your heart You regard Lwow as Ukranian, Poles regard it as their own- based on History,Regards.

I think there is more underlying the point of whether Ukraine stole Polish land or whether Lwow is Polish or Ukranian- it is how we see each other, starting for example in WW2 Ukranians tied Polish children around the base of trees with barbed wire, inevitably dying, popularly known as a "garland"(ref Wikipedia)- under the auspices of the Communists, since then it is well known they have been hand in glove with USSR who have supported them economically, I cannot see how Ukraine grew stronger -they simply survived under this regime. Pro -Russian President of Ukraine at the time,Kuchma reversed the original plan of the pipelines- in 2004- thereby allowing Russian oil south to the Black Sea for export. In 2005 pro-Western President of Ukraine Yuschenko reverted to the original plan: now the Ukraine proposes : in conjunction with Polska that the pipeline running through Ukraine, from Odessa be extended to Plock- effectively bypassing USSR. From Plockit can be connected to an existing network, carrying it to Gdansk, thence to Western Europa.

So is this proposition the Ukraine hopes will get them into the EU? What else do they have to offer? What will be the repercussions from USSR- aside from cutting off their oil supplies in the middle of Winter.Poles paid the 23% hike- can the Ukranians?

History / how many labour camps in siberia? [11]

[


Because they were in the Siberian camps-I suggest a good book"An Army in Exile" by L.T-General W. Anders- the C.I.C. Polish Forces in the U.S.S.R.- it gives a very good explanation of how they are inextricably linked- it is a myth the labor camps were only for civilians/prisoners of war.

History / how many labour camps in siberia? [11]


A major problem is that the Communists either did not have or refuse to give up documents eg Katyn ,pertaining to names, locations,eg Kolyma,eg Siberian camps- unlike the meticulous German records- until these are produced people will continue to search for missing relatives- to no avail.

Norman Davies provides a thorough if overall broad view of events of Polish History- he is after all an Historian. I'm not sure if he could enough specific detail.

Thousands of camps, millions of people.
Matyjasz: "sad"-that's an understatement.....

History / Want to know more about Poles and Polish soldiers during WWII? [18]

I watched the film- in parts give a good if basic excerpts of Polish contribution to the Aliied effort in WW2. I hope though the footage of presumably Polish cavalry attacking German tanks is dismissed outright as fabrication-see my post 146 "Poland has paid 68 million pounds for helping UK in WW2" for clarification.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


I chose Wikipedia because is a neutral source over a Polish source as this could be construed as slanted in the Poles favour.
"read,read, and read" is what I have done- it's not that difficult if one has the inclination:books or Internet, both easily accessible.

"history is a bit different for every family, because some had more luck than others"- I have taken into account my own family eg Mother, Father, Grandparents,etc tragedy by listening to the stories/opinions then verifying - to date I cannot find contradictions.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


Poland threw off Russian shackles, starting with Solidarnosc- to date they are now in the EU, others eg Russia, in conjunction with Ukraine refused to join.Poland is financially and economically better off than Ukraine eg Poland arranged for seaborne deliveries to help boost it's oil supply after Russia cut off deliveries via Druzhba pipeline. I doubt Ukraine would have finances - and this just 1 example.The EU's only terminal capabable of pumping seaborne crude shipments through the Druzhba pipeline is in Gdansk. Poles are ready to negotiate with Germany on this, but are stalling with the Ukranians on their proposition- perhaps because of Ukranian historical ties with Russia, perhaps because of the pro-Russian and pro-Western dissension in the Ukranian Govt. , the Govt. is perceived as less than trustworthy.


: As an Ukranian Patriot I assumed You would know,even on a basic level how your Govt. works, yet You are unable to answer my queries.

You are right about the rich natural resouces-as has been pointed out by the Ukranians to the Poles re the rich soil and my post#37- perhaps this a symbol of the beginning of negotiations in regards to conflict.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

qouote=miranda, Post #45 ]
, stating the obvious.[/quote]
You got me wrong- I am not being sarcastic towards You but I am stating the obvious- it doesn't cost much - time and inclination- for those interested eg public libraries( free)!


I assume You mean where I got info to back up my family's stories. Broadly speaking, I have read "Poland's Place in Europe General Sikorski and the Origin of the Oder-Niesse Line,1939-1943", "White Eagle, Red Star: The Polish Soviet War, 1919-1920", "An Army in Exile", "Rising' 44 The Battle for Warsaw", "The Murderers of Katyn", the Internet, "International Herald Tribune Europe" each address Ukraine in regards to Polska, I am sure there are other books which go deeper, I am too am interested in what You discover,Regards.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


If You do not know the present political situation, perhaps You know Historical aspects between Ukraine and Poland that we could discuss.I see little evidence of either on your part

Your perception of my superior demure is disappointing. I approached this dicussion with Historical facts and knowledge: faced with this you sulked and terminated the discussion. Pity.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]


:Point taken
Po


Apolgies for taking your time.


Dear Kochana-Babcia, I assume You have read all my posts: from the bickering over Lwow, the atrocities of WW2, kissing Communists feet over many years in order for the USSR in order to support them- these observations were examined from an Historical point of view- not as a personal dislike for the Ukrainians-further their newest proposition to the Poles re the pipeline, along with clamoring to enter the EU is met with caution - for obvious reasons. Regards.


Since 1989: The strategic objectiveof Polish policy was membership into the EU.
In 1990:They filed an application to begin negotiations with Europa Communities.The Poles were aware of the required high standards of the EU and began preparing, rectifying the problems.

In 1994: the Agreement came into effect, so on 1st May 2004, they were smoothly accepted into the EU, having had in effect 10 years to prepare.


1/ Fruit: Poland in 2003 was the largest producer of apples, 60% were processed into concentrate, the rest exported. Same with strawberries,cherries,raspberries, etc.
2/ Veg, main export were potatoes, beetroot, sugarbeet.
3/ Rye, barley, oats another main export.
4/ In 2004, 53,000 tons of cheese were exported- 72% higher than in 2003, 33% of Edam ended up in Finland.
5/ The quality of beef, pig, and poultry rose sharply in demand, leading to an expansion of export. So , there was a rapid increase in exports of meat, milk, fruit & veg as on average they were 30% cheaper than those produced in the EU. The common market as well as foreign investment generates growth.

6/ Heavy industry.Copper mines producing non ferrous metals for export and ferrous( nickel, cobalt, iron) in moderation.
7/In 2005, the main producer of yachts(up to 7.5m) in Europa.
8/ Manufacturing and technical skills of cars, electronics and chemicals.
7/ Confectionary-exported.
8/ Polish beer-exported.
9/ Crystal and jewellry-exported.
10/ Education: amongst of the best educated societies in Europa, the Uni's and technical colleges producing students well acquainted with foreign languages, IT, Biotechnology, etc- the quality of Polish scientific and technical achievement reflected by the worlds largest corporations locating their R&D centres there.These graduates, with the research and entrepenerial skills can be harnessed to create new business focus on

EU market, Professionals can look abroad for jobs, prosperity.
11/ Young educated workers- in view of the aging EU societies and willing to work in different EU sectors are regarded as cheap labour.
12/ Tourism.
13/ The willingness to work closely with the other nations within the EU- despite differences.

History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Czesc, Pan Huegel- and Thank-You:) :)
Anielka

History / Katyn- forgiven and forgotten? [111]


Factor in that Poland had 20 years to forge a new nation- after being partitioned for 123 years, before being invaded by 2 much greater powers- so how could Katyn-1 incident have weakened it to such an extent?


I'm not sure what indiscretions you mean.
In backing the wrong side, do you mean our Allies?

History / Katyn- forgiven and forgotten? [111]


We backed the wrong side- no other country offered any hope of freedom to partioned Poland. Yes, we believed in promises of opportunitists/ politicians/statesmen-call them what you will, and fought willingly under Bonaparte for the hope of freedom-at least Bonaparte was defeated with the Poles- unlike others, who also made empty promises ,which we believed- but they were the victors, with the Poles essentially fighting for them, then selling us out-ring a bell?

Why, it's just not cricket.
By the way, what past indiscretions did we pay for?
We paid the price for the hope of freedom.

History / Solidarnosc (Two Decembers) [11]

Yes, the words catch one in the throat.And yes there is another side to the coin to be considered: husband conscripted and served during Martial Law, so thanks to the Army,General Jaruzelski, the Polish Govt. and Martial Law- with Russian tanks standing on the Polish border ready to roll- thus avoiding another Communist bloodbath, remember Hungary?

Younger Poles do remember: their father obtaining names to start a Union amongst Firefighters, then taken in the middle of the night, their mother searching the jails, families never knowing if/when Tata is coming back, where he is, is he alive, hurt, they just don't talk about it.

Study / Comparing Educational Standards in Poland vs other countries [88]

Hi, a relative sat exam for Medicine(in Poland)- missed out by 2 points, resat- missed out by 1 point.Took radiography instead(NOT the "dream")- I wonder if other countries are as strict in their standards?

Study / Comparing Educational Standards in Poland vs other countries [88]


My idea was to bring the relative to us and do the Medicine in Australia. I contacted a couple of Uni's- given that they consider her a post grad eg finished radiography they sliced off 2 years, leaving 4 years.Pre requiste:an interview with the head of medical faculty via phone/computer.No exam.Problem:classified her as International student, cost- $155,000AU.

An Aust. could do same @a third of above cost.Regards, Anielka.