History / Another WWII thread. [69]


How you can construe in any of my posts that I am praising Nazi Germany or defending Hitlers policy to try and murder my Polish grandmother at KZ-Ravensbruck and Sachsenhausen or his policy to deport my Polish father to Germany as a boy to a forced labour camp or his policy to execute my grandfather in a Warsaw street is quite beyond me. You obviously speak an alien language to me!


I make no reference to a Roman fashion but to a British fashion. The words are not even similar sounding or in reading? Maybe you should re-read what I wrote and you will plainly see I wrote about Great Britain and her empire not the Roman empire!

History / Another WWII thread. [69]


I am sorry Harry, but I disagree. Poland's post-war future was determined round a table in Terhan where no Pole was seated.

However I agree, that in post-war Poland, Polish communists did help USSR to impose and secure communist control over Poland, it would be absurd to suggest otherwise.


Don't you know there were no 'Polish' communists in post-war Poland only Jewish communists and Soviet communists running the country and armed forces, or so some would have us believe.

History / Another WWII thread. [69]


I would not argue about the treaty only that Anders recieved a personal pledge from Churchill that Poland's post-war future would be determined by Poles. This was not true as Poland's future had been determined at Tehran (without reference to Polish-government-in-exile) a year earlier than Churchill's pledge to Gen. Anders that the then legitmate Polish-government-in-exile would have some part to play in the homeland's future. For me this was the dishonour and betrayal of trust between the two Allies. But as we know there were many reasons how this situation came about; the total disunity of purpose bewteen the various in-fighting factions within the Polish-government-in-exile IMO was a big contributing factor as to their being sidelined from the descison making process, combined with their increasing military irrelavance as perceived by the major Allied powers in the defeat of Nazism in Europe.


I can go along with that.

History / Polish Christian survivors of WWII oppression tell their stories [4]

I can totally recommend this book!

It is pretty unique as it covers the Polish experience both under Nazi Germany and the Soviets including post-war period in one volume. Memoir accounts that have never been published before.

Author's website: polishdiaspora.net

History / Polish contribution to England during war [60]


I kind of agree with this. By the end of WWII Britain was pretty much bankrupted, and the people exhausted; its power over the old colonial empire was vastly diminished if not vanished. So in some sense the might of pre-war Great Britain was defeated by the war effort.

History / Another WWII thread. [69]


At the time many in Great Britain belived it was. Hitler belived it was.

I believe if one makes a pledge one should always honour it, come what may and Great Britain IMO did just that—for the most part.

But it is also the opinion of some on PF that Britain did not honour its pledges to Poland in WWII. I do not wholly agree with this view as there was Churchill's obvious lies to General Anders about Poland's post-war future. This was Churchill's dishonour and is a different debate as to why Churchill was not honest with Anders.


The British monarchy had strong historic family links to Germany so it was only natural that Hitler considered 'us' friends.

History / Polish contribution to England during war [60]


Or if the Red Army hadn't defeated the Germans on the Eastern Front?

History / Another WWII thread. [69]


That is true. Hitler never wanted to a war with Great Britain. He was totally surprised that Britain actually honoured it pledge to Poland and actually declare war on Germany.

Hitler greatly admired the British Empire, a small country that ruled an empire that spanned much of the globe. He admired the process by which little Britain controlled its huge empire by using 'locals' to do much of the administrative dirty work, a process Hitler was keen to emulate in the Nazi occupied territories. Hitler was keen that Britain should retain its empire and should share world power with Nazi Germany who would create and rule a Nazi German empire in the East. But Britain foolishly went to war against Germany to honour its pledge to Poland. Some might argue this was Great Britains biggest mistake of 20th Century, apart from allowing the Poll Tax protestors bring down Thatcher's government :-)

News / What needs to happen in the world so that Poland and Russia form alliance? [297]


But what is there in Poland that would be of such value for today's Russia?

History / Inka 1946.... Polish Heroine [3]

Was anyone ever brought to justice for the state murder of Danuta Siedzikówna or was she just another victim of the Polish communist regime that no one is held to account?

Since the collapse of the Polish communist regime has anyone ever been tried and convicted for these state crimes or is it all brushed under the carpet by succesive post-communist 'communist-in-disguise' Polish governments?

Has anyone ever received compensation from the Polish state for past crimes of the Polish communist regime?

These are all tragic stories of post-war Poland that deserve more attention in the 'west'.

History / Another WWII thread. [69]


The photo (originally from Sikorski Institute archives) actually shows Polish destroyers on route for Rosyth, Scotland.

I am no Polish Navy expert but here is a brief summary:

Following dicussions with British government in May 1939, an agreement was reached to bring the small Polish naval fleet to Great Britain and in late August 1939 three Polish destroyers Błyskawica, Burza and Grom left Polish naval port of Oksywie in Gydnia and by 1st September were at Rosyth in Scotland! A fourth destyroyer the Wicher should have joined the others at Rosyth but was sunk off the Hel Penninsula.

After the start of hostilites the destroyers in Scotland were joined by Polish submarines Wilk and a little later the Orzel which escaped German internment from port of Tallinin, Estonia. The subs Ryś, Sep, and Żbik sailed to Sweden where they were interned for the war. Almost all of Poland's merchant fleet, around 140,000 tons left the baltic as early as August 1939. 4 Polish minelayers were incorporated into the German Navy.

From 1940, the Polish navy was strengthened by the arrival of a number of British destroyers, and in late 1944 two light cruisers the Dragon and Conrad two of the largest shpis the Polish Navy ever possesed. The Polish Navy played an important role in the 'Battle of the Atlanic'. The importance of 'Battle of the Atlantic' to the war effort is unfortunately often overlooked and underestmated.

I recently met a Polish veteran who rather uniquely was a soldier with the Carpathian brigade during the Siege Tobruk, Libya and subsequently enlisted with Polish Navy in which he served for four years. He was decorated with the 'Tobruk' medal by the Australian government.

History / Poland war propaganda poster - can anyone explain this picture? [292]


According to some here on PF the Polish state did not exist after some point in September 1939 so the gold could not have claimed by a non-existent entity. Britain should have kept hold of the former Polish state gold reserves—it would certainly have helped pay back British war loans to USA :-)

History / Poland war propaganda poster - can anyone explain this picture? [292]



Accurate description ;-)

It was actually the French that tried to steal the Polish gold reserves. A court case was required to get it back!

Potted history of Polish state gold reserves:

Polish gold was saved in 1939 taken to Romania then it was "lost" within French gold reserves in 1940. Federal court case against the French in NY in 1942-43 to recover part of the gold which the French evacuated to North Africa and denied knowing anything about it. Recovered in 1943. Some of the Polish gold was in West Africa at one time according to National Archives records in London. I have the file references somewhere. Finally ended up in Canada. Part of the Polish gold reserves repatriated to Poland after WWII, part to repay British war loans to Polish government-in-exile and part to maintain Polish "Free" Forces post-war.

I am sure I read recently that Anders sent some Polish gold to be looked after by Franco in Spain, early post-war when Anders wanted to set up a anti-communist Polish military accord with Franco's Spain.

News / What needs to happen in the world so that Poland and Russia form alliance? [297]

What needs to happen in the world so that Poland and Russia form alliance?

Poland will need to have something of value to Russia and Russia for Poland that cannot be gained from alliances elsewhere. Does Poland even figure on Russian radar unless there is talk of US missile shields or NATO politics? I don't know?

History / 2nd Armoured Warsaw Division/ Warszawskiej Dywizji Pancernej [6]

Mikolaj, I may be able to help you with this :-)

History / 70th Anniversary of start of WWII [50]

Short clip from my mobile of the Spitfire and Hurricane fly-by ;-)

A souviner book was produced for the Polish Armed Forces Memorial (which was co-edited by yours truly) and published by the Polish Underground Movement (1939-45) Study Trust on 1 September 2009 and is now available from Amazon.

Proceeds of the book sale are going to help fund the annual maintance of the Memorial site —not to make the editors richer than we are already or to my personal anti-Polish Benevolent Fund ;-)

First to Fight: Poland's Contribution to the Allied Victory in WWII (Paperback)
by Marek Stella-Sawicki (Editor), Jarek Garlinski (Editor), Stefan Mucha (Editor)
Publisher: Polish Underground Movement (1939-45) Study Trust (1 Sep 2009)
ISBN-10: 0955782449
ISBN-13: 978-0955782442
296 pages includes many photo illustrations.
Retail Price UK£19.95

History / 70th Anniversary of start of WWII [50]


news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8263776.stm - We made the National news ;-))

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


I am sorry but statement this is just not true.

I have the British government papers which quite clearly state how many tens of millions of UK£ aid was granted each year to Polish government-in-exile of which a significant proportion was written off at the end of the war, and some was repaid from Polish state gold before it was repatriated to Poland after recognition of the Polish communist government.

When I get back from the opening ceremony of the Polish Armed Forces Memorial over this weekend I will post these papers in answer to this misconception about Britain (and USA) not providing aid.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


I claim no expertise.

However the policy to drop leaflets on the 'immediate' outbreak of war over Germany and not bombs in evident in the government papers of the day.


I am sure I am often wrong :-)

So given I am wrong, why do you think that RAF did not load bombs onto the planes that dropped over 14 million leaflets over the German heartland ... given as you say bombs were dropped on German North Sea port? The aircraft and the bombs were available. Even the website you quoted suggested that 'Bomber' Harris thought it should have been bombs not leaflets given the risks involved to the pilots flying over Germany?

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


I believe they do concerning the immediate outbreak of hostilities and the bombing Germany.


This was not a bombing raid?

From this same source no bombs reported being dropped over targets on 3 September?


I think this is the important point that IMO confirms the decision to drop leaflets rather than bombs over Germany. Why fly all that way and at some risk to drop leaflets rather than bombs? The answer was that dropping leafltes rather than bombs on Germany would hopefully prevent all-out war which Britain (and France) did not want the situation to escalate into. The site you linked to even alludes to 'Bomber' Harris finding it nonsensical for the RAF not to carry bombs! But that is politiking over soldiering...it never works in the end.

However I am not disputing that raids took place over the North Sea but this is not the same as bombing Germany. Although it is bombing Germans I agree.


From same source quoted:



Whose quoted opinion is this? Those in the British government at the time making the actual decisons believed otherwise as is evident in document page 4 I posted earlier.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


It is a documented fact that British policy was to drop leaflets on the 'immediate' outbreak of war. Document 4 shows how convinced the War Office were that this was a good strategy because the German population had seen that RAF had been able to penetrate German air space so effectively to drop the propaganda leaflets the British thought this would sway the population against the Nazi regime. I am sure you would agree that the RAF could quite easily have loaded bombs rather than leaflets and would most probably have preffered to do so if it was policy to do so.

Bombing raids after the the 'immediate' outbreak of war I am sure would also have been a matter of policy but the archive documents I have copies of clearly record that RAF leaflet drops were the British governments 'immediate' response to war.

The leaflet campaign continued for some time following the outbreak of war. There are many further examples in the following file at the National Archives, London:

News / Russia opens archives and Poland demands minority rights from Germany [60]


The National Archives at Kew, London is open to all. Just apply for a readers ticket and you have access to everything that falls outside the non-disclosure rules. You will learn just how much help and support Britain did or did not provide the Polish underground and the Polish-goverment-in-exile during WWII (it was substantial from Britain and the USA—Sikorski was given [not loaned] $120,000,000 dollars in war-aid by the USA alone!) and you will be able find out all the reasons behind the British government's policy failures and successes with regard to Poland; from primary source documents not third-hand or fourth-hand references to references copied and pasted by lazy authors :-)

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]

For those with intrest in British policy in the event of war with Germany-a policy which was to drop propaganda leaflets over Germany, NOT to bomb it!

This decision was taken and made government policy betwen May-June 1939.

14 million German language leaflets (document one) were printed and held in storage in case war was to break out. The British and French rather naively thought the propaganda leaflets would be enough to deter the German population's support of Hitler's war ambitions, given that the RAF was able to penetrate deep into German territory (see document 4)

I photographed these documents (any many hundreds more) from National Archives in London:

News / Russia opens archives and Poland demands minority rights from Germany [60]


I haven't heard that one before???

News / Russia opens archives and Poland demands minority rights from Germany [60]

One could also ask what happened to the 'missing' $12,000,000 of Polish aid that was with Anders' Second Corps in Italy after the war and not repatriated to England when the Second Corps was demobilised in UK? Where was this spirited away to and by whom? Franco's Spain maybe?

News / Russia opens archives and Poland demands minority rights from Germany [60]


What about Poland's share of the German merchant fleet that it was agreed by the Soviets, Great Britain and USA was to come out of the USSR's share of German war-reparations? If Poland didn't receive these ships as was its due from USSR then they must have been unlawfully witheld (ie., stolen) by the Soviets?


You know who? It can be argued that Poland was in part betrayed by its own ineffectual goverment-in-exile based in London who after the death of Sikorski could not even present a united front to the major powers.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Would you include into this number those Poles in the AK who collaborated with the Ukranian Insurectionst Army (UPA) in Lubaczew thus preventing the ethnic cleansing of Ukranians in the local area to the the Soviet Union?

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


This memorandum related to the secret protocols attached to the Anglo-Polish Agreement clearly shows that the agreement, confirmed as understood by both parties, was only intended to apply to aggression from Germany. The highlighting is mine of course ;-)

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Nothing because the Anglo-Polish agreement of 1939 was still extant in 1945; in this agreement both Poland and Britian agreed that Britain would not offer support or aid to Poland in the event of agression by USSR or anyone else in fact apart from Germany—this is fact. These fake Anglo-Polish agreement documents still exist in National Archives.


It has been done before... aftreall the documents Stalin purportedly signed to order the Katyn executions are all fakes because the Germans executed the Polish officers :-))

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


At the National Archives in London there is at least one file that supports the fact that not only was Poland invited but also other Allies such as China, USA, USSR et al.

Given that official British government staff cars were laid on for the Officers of these Allied forces and the Dominions one wonders why if no invitations were sent out?

Here is one of the documents I photographed last week:

Victory Parade 1946 Welfare File
Victory Parade File : Provison of staff cars
Victory Parade File: Provision of staff cars for Poland

It has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread (?) that Poland paid entirely for its own war material etc from Polish gold. This is erroneous, as Sikorski received approx. US$120,000,000 (a vast sum given the time period) from the US for war aims. This was NOT a repayable loan. The British government also wrote-off a substantial part of war loans it made to Poland, but did demand payment for a proportion of the outstanding loans. Again I have copies of these FO documents.

As an aside I also have the files related to the RAF leaflet drops over Germany at the outbreak of war, along with copies of the leaflets and translations. Interestingly the decision to drop leaflets over Germany at the outbreak of war was taken around April 1939, and some 14 million propaganda leaflets were printed in German and stored in readiness.