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Polish contribution to England during war


Marek11111 9 | 816  
25 Sep 2009 /  #1
In your opinion you think England would be defeated if it was not for Polish soldiers, pilots, seaman, AK, helping British to fight Germans?
My opinion is yes England would be defeated.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
25 Sep 2009 /  #2
If memory serves, it was Air Marshall Slessor (or another senior officer) who remarked, in relation to the Polish contribution to the BoB, words to the effect that but for the contribution of Polish aircrews he would hesitate to say that the outcome would have been the same. If we accept this hypothesis (which effectively says the BoB would have been lost without help from the Poles), and if we accept that the loss of the BoB would have precipitated the fall of GB, then yes, England would have been defeated.

The fact remains that England survived the BoB, was not ultimately defeated, and Polish aircrews played a vital part in securing that 'survival' during such a crucial epoch of the war. Absent that Polish contribution, and reasonable lines of assumption would tend to correspond with Slessor's comments.

In that regard, one could even suggest that the detractors of the Polish contribution have the burden of proving that England WOULD NOT have been defeated but for the Polish contribution, rather than the other way round. In other words, if you enter a scrap to help a friend who's getting pounded by an enemy and your friend prevails, the facts stands for themselves that your friend would have been crushed but for your help - res ipsa loquiter.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
25 Sep 2009 /  #3
ow come on, every new thread about the war and the Polish contribution gets more and more unbelievable, nobody is denying what Poland did for anybody in the war or what she contributed (in fact maybe thats because people are fed up of hearing about it so keep quite) but this is getting beyond stupid :)

Fair play Poland did what it/she did, nobody is going to take that away but why do people feel the need to bring up the same points again and again??
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
25 Sep 2009 /  #4
why do people feel the need to bring up the same points again and again??

Because when someone fights and ultimately loses they need to hold onto anything that assures them the fight was not in vain and that some good come out of their struggle.

If Polish perseverance on these subjects offends your Anglo-Saxon sense of humility, then please indulge our intransigence and forgive us for causing you the waste of time, energy and oxygen in typing your protest to our themes of discussion.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
25 Sep 2009 /  #5
Because when someone fights and ultimately loses they need to hold onto anything that assures them the fight was not in vain and that some good come out of their struggle.

good point, i understand that idea of looking at the positives rather than the negatives, however if you were going to be that positive why bother with WWII at all??? There must be plenty more plus points about Poland than just 'History' i'm talking people, culture, food, potential.............. the list goes on.

If Polish perseverance on these subjects offends your Anglo-Saxon sense of humility, then please indulge our intransigence and forgive us for causing you the waste of time, energy and oxygen in typing your protest to our themes of discussion.

did i said it offended me?? i don't think i did, i just find it strange that people continually feel the need to write the same thing over and over, sometimes even make statements like the OP.

I think there is way way way too much negative talk on this forum about Poland, not just by the non-Poles either, i'm talking Polish citizens, people, civilians maybe even ex-service men/women.
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
25 Sep 2009 /  #6
you think England would be defeated if it was not for Polish soldiers

What I will probably never fully understand is, why all this seems to be so important to Polish people (or should I say Polish politicians?) almost 65 years after the end of WW2. Like ANZAC Day at home - never got it why anyone would give a hoot about this stinking part of history. Remembering? Yes! Living in the past? No!
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
25 Sep 2009 /  #7
that is exactly the point i have tried to make on the forums for a long long time now, however people just keep denying i have a point or refuse to believe i've made it in the first place. They keep returning to 'Polonaphobia' or something like that and the fact that i just don't like the Poles and do not understand because i'm not Polish!!

You know the funny thing is when i had my accident and lost all of my sight in one eye, were the people who guided me through the aftermath partially sighted, or had lost all their sight in one eye?? No of course they were not, did they understand and have the information i required to get on?? yes they dd.

Its not all about 'being' or 'experiencing' something, you can learn without either of these two elements, i sure do know one thing, worrying and feeling bitter about what happened in the past does nobody any good. That comes from somebody who had been there, warn the t-shirt blah blah blah blah, so all these excuses i hear and see on the forums are absolute rubbish.
wzgrza - | 46  
25 Sep 2009 /  #8
What I will probably never fully understand is, why all this seems to be so important to Polish people (or should I say Polish politicians?) almost 65 years after the end of WW2. Like ANZAC Day at home - never got it why anyone would give a hoot about this stinking part of history. Remembering? Yes! Living in the past? No!

Some people like to remember history and discuss it?

I could say every single time I hear a Brit talk about WWII, "Why don't these guys get on with it, and stop living in the past on how great the RAF was during WWII, remember it sure.. but constantly talk about it, NO!". You think Brits don't keep bringing up WWII, and WWII related topics? Maybe not on this forum obviously, but there are many others out there.

You guys notice it and for some reason it bothers you when a Pole does it, yet when a Brit does the same thing you probably wouldnt even notice, as a matter of fact join in on the convo.

Would you say the same thing if an American started a thread "If the U.S didnt enter the war, would the allies have won?".
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
25 Sep 2009 /  #9
Do you mean Britain or England ?
sjam 2 | 541  
25 Sep 2009 /  #10
Would you say the same thing if an American started a thread "If the U.S didnt enter the war, would the allies have won?".

Or if the Red Army hadn't defeated the Germans on the Eastern Front?
Harry  
25 Sep 2009 /  #11
If memory serves, it was Air Marshall Slessor (or another senior officer) who remarked, in relation to the Polish contribution to the BoB, words to the effect that but for the contribution of Polish aircrews he would hesitate to say that the outcome would have been the same.

You can, of course, provide a link for this, can't you? It's just that I prefer not to take the word of a racist liar and, if memory serves correctly, you are a racist liar.

If we accept this hypothesis (which effectively says the BoB would have been lost without help from the Poles), and if we accept that the loss of the BoB would have precipitated the fall of GB, then yes, England would have been defeated.

Firstly, saying "I would hesitate to say something" does not mean "I would not say something". The word 'hesitate' means 'to pause temporarily'; it does not mean 'stop' or 'decide not to'. But of course to a liar like you, 'hesitate' means 'not'.

Secondly, even if the BoB had been lost, the chances are very much that Operation Sealion would have failed. Adolf Galland, commander of Luftwaffe fighters at the time, observed the invasion plans were not serious and that there was a palpable sense of relief in the Wehrmacht when it was finally called off. And he was not somebody known for not speaking his mind. You might want to note that Operation Sealion was called off during the BoB.

In that regard, one could even suggest that the detractors of the Polish contribution have the burden of proving that England WOULD NOT have been defeated but for the Polish contribution, rather than the other way round. In other words, if you enter a scrap to help a friend who's getting pounded by an enemy and your friend prevails, the facts stands for themselves that your friend would have been crushed but for your help - res ipsa loquiter.

Even by your standards this is hysterical! Most people would observe that Poland entered the fight (i.e. WWII) on 1 September 1939 when Poland was invaded by Germany. But in your parallel(ish) universe, Poland actually entered the war in 1940 when Britain was "getting pounded" by Germany! Superb stuff dear boy! You haven't written anything this good since you claimed that it's not racist to use the word "Paki"!

But to use your own 'logic', detractors of the British contribution have the burden of proving that all Poles WOULD NOT have been exterminated but for the British contribution. As you yourself put it: if you enter a scrap to help a friend who's getting pounded by an enemy (and Britain did enter WWII to help Poland) and your friend prevails (according to your IPN, the Polish flag did fly over the Reichstag), the facts stands for themselves that your friend would have been crushed but for your help.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
25 Sep 2009 /  #12
In your opinion you think England would be defeated if it was not for Polish soldiers, pilots, seaman, AK, helping British to fight Germans?
My opinion is yes England would be defeated.

Hard to say, Poles cracked the enigma which was a massive contribution but as far as BoB while our pilots were the best of both airforces (British and German) they shot 12% of total German aircraft in BoB, thats a LOT in relation to how many Polish fighter pilots were there but its not neccesarily a decisive amount.

The argument can be made however that Poles helped UK survive the most crucial weeks when not enough pilots could be trained.
southern 75 | 7,096  
25 Sep 2009 /  #13
In your opinion you think England would be defeated if it was not

England was defeated.
Harry  
25 Sep 2009 /  #14
BoB while our pilots were the best of both airforces (British and German)

Not this old lie again! 303 squadron was not the best RAF squadron during the BoB: it was the third best. And two of the three best pilots in 303 squadron during the BoB were not Polish: one was Czech and the other was Canadian.

England was defeated.

Yes, the film of Nazi forces marching in triumph through London is so famous, isn't it?
sjam 2 | 541  
25 Sep 2009 /  #15
England was defeated.

I kind of agree with this. By the end of WWII Britain was pretty much bankrupted, and the people exhausted; its power over the old colonial empire was vastly diminished if not vanished. So in some sense the might of pre-war Great Britain was defeated by the war effort.
southern 75 | 7,096  
25 Sep 2009 /  #16
1940:Defeat in France
1941:Defeat on Creta
1942:Defeat in Tobruk,Singapore
1943:Defeat in battles for Rhodes,aegean islands
1944:Defeat in Arnhem,sluggish advance in France

So where is the victory?
Harry  
25 Sep 2009 /  #17
So where is the victory?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946_London_Victory_Parade
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
25 Sep 2009 /  #18
Some people like to remember history and discuss it?

The same topics over and over and over again?

Would you say the same thing if an American started a thread

Of course, I would - or an Australian for that matter. Take a closer look at my initial post and you will notice that I was also questioning ANZAC Day.

You guys notice it...

See above. We're on a Polish forum, so yes, in this case I'm questioning the Polish obsession with the past.
Eagle20 16 | 119  
25 Sep 2009 /  #19
If memory serves, it was Air Marshall Slessor (or another senior officer) who remarked, in relation to the Polish contribution to the BoB, .

I think this was the quote you are refering to, from Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding:

the C-in-C of the RAF Fighter Command during the Battle: (...) had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same.

avstop.com/history/aroundtheworld/poland/index1.html
wzgrza - | 46  
25 Sep 2009 /  #20
See above. We're on a Polish forum, so yes, in this case I'm questioning the Polish obsession with the past.

I don't think there is anything to get worked up about. Some people like to discuss it, yes the same thing over and over again. Most of these threads are started by different people, and it seems to be a popular subject. Point is, it has nothing to do with being Polish, and nothing to do with living in the past. For those who like to look back on history, it is a debate. On a topic to which in Polands case the consequences of the outcome affect life directly in Poland today. Also some of the issues are still current issues being looked into.
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
25 Sep 2009 /  #21
Most of these threads are started by different people

Most of these threads are started by the same people... ;)

...and nothing to do with living in the past

Well, that's a point I see differently.
OP Marek11111 9 | 816  
25 Sep 2009 /  #22
if you do not have opinion on this subject and just complain do not post anything move on
as you can not change past the discussion is if some event happen or did not happen what you think the outcome would be.
As you may ask if French would won Battle of Waterloo what outcome would be, but this is Polish forum so Polish history.

Tornado2007 and TheOther get it now
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
25 Sep 2009 /  #23
if you do not have opinion on this subject and just complain...

Marek, we DO have an opinion, although it's one you and wzgrza don't agree to. Maybe Tornado2007 was right when he said "however people just keep denying i have a point or refuse to believe i've made it in the first place"?
wzgrza - | 46  
25 Sep 2009 /  #24
It is official.

No more Poland/Polish WWII threads on PFs. !

:)
TheOther 6 | 3,818  
25 Sep 2009 /  #25
No more Poland/Polish WWII threads on PFs.

HUG! HUG! Starting to cry tears of joy... :)
Now let's talk about Poland's future.
Mr Grunwald 23 | 1,662  
26 Sep 2009 /  #26
HUG! HUG! Starting to cry tears of joy... :)

Mr. Ruinator has arrived!

I think Polish contribution was very small in the Napolenic era when thinking of contributing England. Thinking of some infantry fellas who tried to survive but the Poles just slaughtered them. Don't know if it is true but it's definatly a story wich was known among British soldiers.
ShelleyS 14 | 2,893  
26 Sep 2009 /  #27
In your opinion you think England would be defeated if it was not for Polish soldiers, pilots, seaman, AK, helping British to fight Germans?
My opinion is yes England would be defeated.

Not sure about semen, aparently the Yanks did there bit in this department..only useful thing that they did!

Air Force are well recognised...you only have to look this up on the net..to see how wel you flew our planes and integrated with the RAF..
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Sep 2009 /  #28
Now let's talk about Poland's future.

exactly, that is the main point here, look to the future!!!
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
26 Sep 2009 /  #29
I think Polish contribution was very small in the Napolenic era

Two of the best Marshals that Napoleon had were Józef Antoni Poniatowski and Jacques MacDonald.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Sep 2009 /  #30
You know the Poles may get a bit more of a thank you or congratulations for their part in world war II, that is if they ever shut up about it. Just take the gurkha's for example, now they were worriors, hard workers, loyal, gave themselves to the war effort (and many more conflicts) and are so humble that they have only protested about not being allowed to return to Britain until this year.

Me for one, am very very greatful to the Gurkha's for the service they have given us (Britain) throughout history and am myself more than happy and even honoured to have these people living amongst us in our country.

The Poles could take a leaf out of the Gurkha's book, keep your heads down and you'll get the praise, keep banging on and you'll get shite. Nobody doubts what the Poles did for the UK in WWII but it gets a bit old when they bring it up again and again and again coupled with 'you ow us!!!!' The poor Gurkha's have only been allowed to return to the UK, THIS YEAR to spend the last years of their lives in comfort and to recieve proper medical care that they truely deserve.

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