History /
WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]
Not a problem. No,neville chamberlins govt had no guts,by the time GB had a govt with the guts to fight a war it was May 1940 and the Bltzkrieg had rolled west.
Put the shoe on the other foot, and I think it's safe to say the Poles would have acted differently. Big call, but there it is.
How? By invading germany,no offence to the heros of bzura et al but Poland was in about as good a position as GB to attack Germany at this time.
As to rotting in Romania, Poles flocked to England regardless of GB governement intervention -they were under the mistaken belief that sacrifice for GB would be paid in kind. Dont fantasise that it was the GB that let them out of their pens.
I dont think I ever implied it was the GB govt that released them,(infact,most went to france first from romania),in my hypothisis of a war without GB or Fr involvement I simply stated fact,where would they have gone too from Romania?
After their usefulness and novelty wore off (starting from the end of the B of B), many were despised, ridiculed and made to feel as though they had no home.
All I can talk about are the many dozens of families in my small town and the hundreds of others in the larger town near me who were welcomed with open arms by the locals(yes,the govt wanted people out,no question,but this was everyone,not some form of "polonophobic" conspiricy) and have had the red and white flying on our local war monuments for the last 60 odd years.
As to the Frantic airdrops, those individual pilots were heroes, and with solemn respect to their memory, I would hazard to say that they would roll in their graves if their individual courage and selflessness was attributed to any checklist of GB's contributions suggestive of a governmental mindset or policy/doctrine of assistance for Poland.
ok,so why do you think its any different to your rather distastfull premise that there should be some sort of tally of who did what for who? Is the british life lost over warsaw any less worthy than the Polish life lost over london? I attempted to respond to your idea that somehow you can take the deeds of individuals and try and see who did more for whom ,maybe I came up short,maybe its just something that can never be equated,The starting premis is,GB only went to war at that time because of its alliance with Poland and France,we all lost,britain 360.000+ lives,each one ,cold hard fact,only lost because we went to war because Poland was invaded.Yes,Poland lost many many more people,so if you can reduce it to a tally of deaths then,you win(lose),frankly though,I prefer to leave comparisons of suffering to a certain other group of people.
No reflection needed,I stand by my words,of course there are people on here with great amounts of knowladgebut,and this is a huge big but, there are also always jingoistic idiots,with very little knowladge beyond that gleaned from war films who seem to ruin the level of debate/discusion.If you notice,the person who started this thread hasn had much to say...so I rest my case there m'lud.
As are we here in GB,as you may or may not know,the secret of enigma for example only came out in the mid-late 70s,many things are still top secret here.
No your Bip papers wernt lost,they will have been destroyed,simple,along with many historical records pertaining directly to britain. Do you not think that here in the UK we were not flooded with Yank propaganda,or more specifically anti Soviet propaganda,down playing the war in the east here as much as it was over played the other side of the curtain. Yes,I understand the idiosyncracies of Polands troubled history as much as an interested outsider can,but I still say a Pole who spouts nonsence is as bad as a Brit who thinks "we won the war" on our own should maybe just read more and type less.
I suggest you read Norman Davies Rising 44 if you havent already
rather battered and bruised it is too, though even ole Norm is open to debate( the photos of 2nd armd captioned as airborne spring to mind,as well as one or two fictional streets that members of the home army association have never heard of) and dont get me started on his bloomin anoying Mr K' this and DR A' that,grrrr:)
I wonder why when discussing history Poles seem to focus on being 'hard done by', or what their achivements are.
Yes,doesnt play well to "stiff upper lip" british audiences. We prefer the older stereotype we used to have in Brritain of the " Plucky Pole" or the "Galent airmen" etc etcnot the whinging type,especially as most people in Britain who know their history know a lot more about the Poles than Poles maybe think we do.
It's particularly galling when a lot of the achievements were made for the beneift of others who did not have the gratitude to repay in kind
sorry,what do you mean,pay inkind? How,were we meant to start WW3 against,what was to all intents and purposesa Soviet union with a Polish ally,to liberate Poland for "our" Poles? A Pole invented the hand held mine sweeper,much used by all forces in the desert campain and elswhere,so what,a yank invented the sherman that Poles drove on the way to defeating Germany.How do you mesure up acheivments in wartime then "pay in kind"?
In that sense, I think Poland is arguably unique in the world.
well,some could say this,I wouldnt myself,unless you mean unique in not realising that ww2 was a combined effort by many nations and no one nations contributions outwayed,or played a significant role in the defeat of germany( i would hazard a guess at the T34 tank,but without its christie suspension ......) above any others,and to say so just seems to be trying too hard at patriotism.
and that the real turning point in the battle was made by the North African tribesmen of the Free French further down the valley
Looks like the usual westernist putting-down-the-Poles propaganda. It used to be quite naughty (and silly) in Britain and US.
Not at all Puzz' every school boy in britain (when kids cared about these things) knows it was Poles who eventually captured monestery Hill from the gerry para's so calm down,it isnt a bbc conspiricy ;)
What it is infact is the usuall "westernest" put down of non white participation in WW2thankfully this is slowly changing. I never claimed the Poles didnt capture Monte Cassino,all I pointed out was the imple fact that cassino had lost all strategic significane by the time it fell as the road to Rome had already been opened.Rather than being pee'd off at me for pointing this out,get pee'd off at Freyburg and Alexander for waisting Polish lives against a figurehead objective.
hate to disappoint you,but the polish /soviet war hardly figures on the radar in this country.....although,yes,I have read the book,interesting to read about so many Polish divisions entirely equipped with British uniforms and rifles :)
A prime example is BIP's archive, which was delivered to the GB govt at the finale of the war and was 'lost'.
sorry dan,just an add on to this,they were not lost by the GB govt,rather by one of the " Cambridge Spies" off the top of my head I would have to guess at Kim Phillby,working in the forgiegn office at the time and a puppet of the NKVD/KGB, I think this is discussed in breiff in the appendix of Red Runs The Vistula" but,having lost that in the june floods someone else will have to confirm this for you....
