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UPA barbarian murders on Polish and Jewish neighbors during WW2


Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Mar 2009 /  #121
Wouldn't that mean they are mixed with people who have lighter skin tones?

Not really, mostly it means that you need education like so many people here, Jews aquired their complection through prolonged exposure to intense sunlight with later generations being born with darker complection as a result of adjustment, Jews in Poland and further east simply adapted over generations getting a lighter skin tone.

when you see drawings of the ancient Canaanites and other artwork featuring them, they are dark.

Ancient Jews and modern Jews are two completely ethnically different groups, they're connected by religion but tradition and civilization are different since Jews lost pretty much all their civilizational heritage once they scattered and lost their cities to Rome, this is one of the primary reasons why today religion amounts to culture for them.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
16 Mar 2009 /  #122
strong possibility that male Jews having imiigrated to various European countries mated with local women and thus created that specific offshoot of who now considers themselves Jewish.

Yes, thank you, Darius, that's what I'm talking about and I wasn't specific enough in my other post. I've seen the Ashkenazi jews, the ones with dark hair, high cheek bones, they look turkish to some extent...I've also seen another type who looks more like the stereotypical European jew, what everyone pictures when they think of European jews. Those were the ones I wondered about...some of them look like artwork depicting ancient canaanites except with lighter skin and thinner lips.

Jews in Poland and further east simply adapted over generations getting a lighter skin tone

That's something I hadn't thought of...could just be due to being further north, a colder climate. After several generations the skin becomes lighter, just like it does with other caucasions who moved north.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
16 Mar 2009 /  #123
I've seen the Ashkenazi jews, the ones with dark hair, high cheek bones, they look turkish to some extent..

Umm....the Ashkenazi Jews are also called "German Jews" and look like it, quite central/western European, very rarely dark and turkish.
(...okay...maybe darker as usual)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

....are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities of the Rhineland in the west of Germany. Ashkenaz is the medieval Hebrew name for the region which in modern times encompasses the country of Germany and German-speaking borderland areas. Ashkenaz is also a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10). Thus, Ashkenazim or Ashkenazi Jews are literally "German Jews."

Interesting side fact...even the german rooting Ashkenazim show a much higher IQ than the average Israeli Jew...
(living in central Europe does wonders for the brain me thinks!) :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
16 Mar 2009 /  #124
very rarely dark and turkish.

Aren't they turkish? I thought they were the ones with the dark hair and high cheekbones...I don't know about looking German...they lived in Germany for a while, then some moved away...but they look more Turkish because they kept to themselves and didn't mix with other peoples.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
16 Mar 2009 /  #125
they lived in Germany for a while

"for awhile"?
When you call about 1500 years "awhile"? :)
They even managed to build a distinctive ethnie with their own language (yiddish).

You must'n mix up the german ashkenazim with their eastern brethren in the polish or
russian stetls. They stayed mainly isolated, mostly orthodox and maybe even darker.

The german jews were mostly quite different...here they thrived...just look at the famous names and how many of them came from Germany or the german speaking lands...

And they were in their majority secular, modern and integrated.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
16 Mar 2009 /  #126
You must'n mix up the german ashkenazim

Yeah but I read Ashkenazi moved out of Germany and further east and there were plenty in Poland. They kept the last names the Germans gave them which, I suppose, can be used to identify them as once living in Germany.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
16 Mar 2009 /  #127
Yeah but I read Ashkenazi moved out of Germany

Na ja..not all of them!
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
16 Mar 2009 /  #128
You must'n mix up the german ashkenazim with their eastern brethren in the polish or
russian stetls. They stayed mainly isolated, mostly orthodox and maybe even darker.

That is true (except for the "darker" aspect). Polish Jews were on self imposed internal exile. They didn't mingle with Poles nearly as much as German Jews did. Many, Polish citizens for generations, didn't speak even basic Polish. Heck, some Germans invading Poland during WW2 spoke better Polish than most Polish Jews did.

And indeed, the merchant mind of the yonder Jew certainly is still around, but it seems to have benefited from the few drops of Germanic/Slavic blood.

I've seen the Ashkenazi jews, the ones with dark hair, high cheek bones, they look turkish to some extent...I've also seen another type who looks more like the stereotypical European jew, what everyone pictures when they think of European jews. Those were the ones I wondered about...some of them look like artwork depicting ancient canaanites except with lighter skin and thinner lips.

I don't think you should put much weight on olden works of art. According to some of those Jesus was a hippie, blond looking white man. The point of my post though was that there is a greater likelihood of influence of Slavic/Germanic peoples on Jewish ethnicity than there is Jewish influence on Slavic/Germanic ethnicity.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
16 Mar 2009 /  #129
Polish Jews were on self imposed internal exile. They didn't mingle with Poles nearly as much as German Jews did.

I'm not entirely convinced, Darius and I will give you a reason. Ghetto benches are PROOF jews mingled with Poles in the bigger cities. They weren't all isolated in shetls during a self imposed exile. Might have been true for some but certainly not for all.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
16 Mar 2009 /  #130
I'm not entirely convinced, Darius and I will give you a reason. Ghetto benches are PROOF jews mingled with Poles in the bigger cities.

I didn't say they NEVER did, but that most of them did not.
Try to get hold of Czeslaw Milosz's memoirs. He's a Nobel Prize winner in Lit. He lived in Poland in those days. A lot of interesting things to be learned from him.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
16 Mar 2009 /  #131
They weren't all isolated in shetls during a self imposed exile. Might have been true for some but certainly not for all.

Maybe the other way around explains it better: Selfimposed isolation was the general rule but not for all...okay?

But maybe the main difference to the western Jews is that the eastern Jews concentrated much more on their religion, their schooling and study of the tora whereas their western brethren studied much more natural sciences in the universities..so to speak!

Easterns Jews are mainly known for their yeshivas and their Rabbies, german Jews for their scientific work.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
16 Mar 2009 /  #132
Try to get hold of Czeslaw Milosz's memoirs. He's a Nobel Prize winner in Lit. He lived in Poland in those days. A lot of interesting things to be learned from him.

I'll add that to my list of reads, sounds like it would be interesting.

Easterns Jews are mainly known for their yeshivas and their Rabbies, german Jews for their scientific work.

True, look at Einstein.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
16 Mar 2009 /  #133
Easterns Jews are mainly known for their yeshivas and their Rabbies, german Jews for their scientific work.

I wouldn't take this as science :)

This is a list of only Nobel winning scientists and of only Polish Jews. I am not listing Russian, Ukrainian and other Jews in the East:

Georges Charpak, physicist, Nobel Prize (1992)
Roald Hoffmann, chemist & writer, Nobel Prize (1981)
Albert Abraham Michelson, physicist,[22] Nobel Prize in Physics (1907)
Isidor Isaac Rabi, physicist, Nobel prize (1944)
Tadeus Reichstein, chemist, Nobel Prize (1950)
Andrew V. Schally, endocrinologist, Nobel Prize (1977) (Jewish father)
miranda  
16 Mar 2009 /  #134
(living in central Europe does wonders for the brain me thinks!) :)

it says that it was a controversial theory in the link you have provided:)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
16 Mar 2009 /  #135
Georges Charpak, physicist, Nobel Prize (1992)
Roald Hoffmann, chemist & writer, Nobel Prize (1981)
Albert Abraham Michelson, physicist,[22] Nobel Prize in Physics (1907)
Isidor Isaac Rabi, physicist, Nobel prize (1944)
Tadeus Reichstein, chemist, Nobel Prize (1950)
Andrew V. Schally, endocrinologist, Nobel Prize (1977) (Jewish father)

That's the ashkenazim influence!
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
16 Mar 2009 /  #136
No way. They all ate Polish potatoes ;)
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
16 Mar 2009 /  #139
Yes, they were. And our Jews were better than German Jews ;)
miranda  
16 Mar 2009 /  #141
oh, so now everybody wants to claim the smart Jews. LOL.

Have you asked them if they want to be claimed?
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
16 Mar 2009 /  #142
Have you asked them if they want to be claimed?

No need to ask.
They are ours. At least their women are :)
miranda  
16 Mar 2009 /  #143
that is right, sorry. I forgot about the women;)
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
16 Mar 2009 /  #144
They have Polish last names that makes them our jews :) The one's Darius listed don't but some do and I am sure the ones who do are just as smart.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
16 Mar 2009 /  #145
And you, Nathan, just try to be less patriotic because it's bad for human brain

Agree on every point you said before, Blacklack. But being patriotic is not bad for your brain. It depends what you claim to be patriotic. "Uber alles" and other proclamations are not patriotic, they are chauvinistic and retarded at best. You will never find me saying these. For me being patriotic is to love your country, culture, land and people and at the same time have respect for all others in the world. I never claimed Polish land or Russian. I want my country's people to be rich and happy, because I think we deserve it. Is there something wrong in it?

In March 2006 the then minister of justice came on TV (news on "1+1") and called people living and Eastern and Southern Ukraine "savages who don't like to wash themselves".

Never heard this, but only a brainless politician (we have many) could say something like that.

Has such a state any future, what do you think?

Of course, it has. I am not there, so I can only state as I would see it. Orange revolution was a big half-step forward. We didn't finish it. We were split in half between two parties, instead of being united under one goal - to make our country better. Politicians on both sides sold us to their own interests. I talked to many people since then and many say " I went in cold to Kijiv and now what I have - I will never vote again or do anything like this". This is what makes the difference. We came and we left. We should keep firing those politicians on a daily basis, not once in a lifetime. Never give up and never hope that somebody else will come and will give us a bread. This is nonsense I hear from old people. I agree with you on president as well. I voted for him and I was hoping he would keep his promises, but he didn't. I don't know what rules him - fear for kids or simple greed for one's pockets. The only thing I know is never split ourselves in Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking camps. We are Ukrainians who want to live well in our own country - that's it. Anyone trying to undermine it is not a patriot, but a sick s.o.b.
Blacklack - | 3  
17 Mar 2009 /  #146
good post Blacklack

Thanks :)

I still insist on that the Russian in a right mind would be free of a standard garderobe of traits you listed such as ignorance etc. Don't get me wrong I've seen loads of that stuff and may still see it for one when there's a Zhirinovki's interview on TV or wherever. But he's not all Russia and... he is not a patriot. Same with others... An idiot or just someone who doesn't take into consideration other people's feelings can't be a patriot inherently. Therefore I wouldn't with a term "patriot" at that point or if you still want to I would put in front of it the "pseudo-" prefix.

I cannot agree with you. Zhirinovskiy's speeches don't matter because he's a talented stand-up comedian and a professional orientalist possibly linked with KGB. So his fake party was created to serve as a lightning rod for Nazi voters (now most of his voters are those who just like his pranks).

However there are too many influential people (not solely politicians) in Russia who advocate the same views in earnest. Do you know Privalov, the editor-in-chief of "Expert" journal? He stated that it would be a good idea to buy Eastern and Southern Ukraine, bribing locals to vote for it and politicians in Kiev to allow such a poll. It's typical Russian patriotic attitude to Ukraine and by far not the worst example.

I've read dozens of Russian articles on Ukraine and hundreds opinions on the web and never encountered one in which Ukrainian words or facts of Ukrainian history were not messed up. On the other side arrogant or "paternalistic" attitude towards Ukraine is most common thing even with intellectuals who are rather civilized.

As to pseudo- or not I think than chauvinism is merely a patriotism of the higher (disproportional if you like) degree. So patriotism while not a bad thing if shared by an honest and tolerant person can easily turn into chauvinism like a medicine can easily become poison.

My purpose was merely to show that Nathan's approach essentially duplicated what you heard in Russian Duma with the only exception of the descriptive adjective... "Ukranian" instead of "Russian".

Well, I agree that there's much misunderstanding, mutual animosity and other unpleasant things between various parts of Ukraine and Ukrainian nationals of different backgrounds. I for instance would like it if Russian language was granted an official status in some regions and endangered minority languages (Gagauzi, Urum, Crimean Greek, which is a separate language, etc.) were protected better.

Yet I don't like when people from Russia intervene because Nathan I imagine would disagree with me and say that Ukrainian itself is endangered and is not used as it should be. That would be true and I have no desire for Ukrainian to disappear or degenerate into Russian-Ukrainian mixture. And people from Russia usually don't care a bit for Ukrainian.

Now, I hope you understand me better.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
17 Mar 2009 /  #147
Sasha:
My purpose was merely to show that Nathan's approach essentially duplicated what you heard in Russian Duma with the only exception of the descriptive adjective... "Ukranian" instead of "Russian".

Sasha, be so kind to explain in what I duplicated Russian Duma's attitude in talking about my country?
Borrka 37 | 594  
18 Mar 2009 /  #148
Maybe it's time for you Poles to reject your own imperialism and acknowledge that "Polska od morza do morza" was no better than "Deutschland ├╝ber Alles" or "velikaya Rossiya" and that it was your ancestors who laid the foundation for Polish-Ukrainian conflict?

Nice try to compare some acient Polish dreams (unknow to the great majority of Poles living today) with Russian chauvinistic craze of "Velikaya Russiya" what is ABC to every Vanya from Tambov to Vladivostok.

Is like granting the same political value to Ilya Muromets and Stalin.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
18 Mar 2009 /  #149
Two things to compare:

acient Polish dreams

Russian chauvinistic craze of "Velikaya Russiya"

Borrka. I’m loving it!® :)

with Russian chauvinistic craze of "Velikaya Russiya" what is ABC to every Vanya from Tambov to Vladivostok

Something tells me, that if there were no "Velikaja Rossija" craze there would be "Velikaja RP" craze. So in a way you should thank Russians for bearing a burden another time. :)

in talking about my country?

No, buddy. You duplicated it more than once while talking about mine (id est Russia) and didn't even notice when.

I cannot agree with you. Zhirinovskiy's speeches don't matter because he's a talented stand-up comedian and a professional orientalist possibly linked with KGB. So his fake party was created to serve as a lightning rod for Nazi voters (now most of his voters are those who just like his pranks).

Yes. Yet you couldn't agree on what? Perhaps he's not a very typical specimen but he's still a part of the one whole together with Privalov you mentioned and others... I find progovernmental magazines too dull to read. But I still wouldn't stick with a term "patriot" for them same as you don't call a pear an apple even though they might look similar.

I've read dozens of Russian articles on Ukraine and hundreds opinions on the web and never encountered one in which Ukrainian words or facts of Ukrainian history were not messed up. On the other side arrogant or "paternalistic" attitude towards Ukraine is most common thing even with intellectuals who are rather civilized

No wonder. The current power runs the show. If they can afford to fabricate elections, why in the world can't they afford to set journalist on their payroll? However runet is one of the last shelters of the trustworthy info from within.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
18 Mar 2009 /  #150
You duplicated it more than once while talking about mine (id est Russia) and didn't even notice when.

And you noticed, right?! So give a single example, if you don't mind. If you do mind, I will "understand".

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