UPA barbarian murders on Polish and Jewish neighbors during WW2

Well given the fact that we're **** poor and you're a first world country that chart doesnt indicate squat.

On the other hand there's Nathan... so yeah maybe it does.

Beside Ukraine some "blind spots" also (Lithuania, Latvia , Estonia) and many others don't have data. Interesting how they estimate IQ. Hmmm. IQ league of Europe? French and Greeks are mentally challenged? Haha, but Germans still keep up with Poland. That's good, Bratwurst, you really enjoy German kielbasa. Bon appetit! I think that you can put me into "crazy" category because only in that state you can waste your time on answering these questions of yours.

Well Nathan there had to be a reason why Ukraine didnt ever hold up competing with Poland, there's an explanation as to why Germany is ahead of Poland and thats because they didnt have commies on their necks but Ukraine and Poland had equal obstacles and opportunities and yet we're a stable democracy for well over a decade while you are still ruled by communist era oligarchies and your economy is dwindling.

How come we can raise ourselves from the shit virtually the moment communism vanishes and you just keep being a poverty stricken state to date ?

major difference. Poland was not a part of USSR, as Ukraine was. I am just pointing that to you since you are STILL using the comparison argument. It is obvious that Ukraine is worth of than Poland when it comes to democracy/economy.


so you can feet better about yourself being a Pole;).
Seriously, not a rocket science to figure out why the Ukraine is in trouble.

Right but not only that.
Ukraine was much longer under the CCCP influence and it wasn't Polish "soft communism".

Ukraine made lots of mistakes in its history. I wish we could go back and change it. In some parts of it it SHOULD have been more brutal and uncompromising like many of its neighbors.Unfortunately it wasn't. Poland should be grateful to have such a nice buffer, where Mongols, Tatars and Russians broke their necks. It took toll on Ukraine as well to keep all of them off sometimes successfullt , sometimes - not. And what is the most pitiful is the fact that having all these enemies from the East , it had a snake on its chest in form of RP.

Ukraine had a completely different history than Poland. Just a simple example : during the communism I couldn't go to my church because it didn't exist officially and my parents would end up in prison. I was baptized in an Russian Orthodox church even though my parents and I are Ukrainian Catholics. Publishing was over 90% in Russian, what about Poland? When I took a little flag I made of paper with blue and yellow colors to school in 1988!!!, my teacher said:"You should be ashamed of yourself". Can you imagine that in Poland with your flag? Soviet Union was pouring materials into satellites just to keep 'em quiet whereas it didn't care much about the countries out of which it consisted. The major goal was to control as much as possible under one boot. I wouldn't even start talking of mass deportations to Kazakhstan, Siberia etc. which happened throughout all USSR's existence.

It is poverty-stricken. But time will come it will be a rich and prosperous country. Polish will come and enjoy their vacations there and Ukrainians will have a lot to offer.

Oh please, spare me that... simply funny to behold UNA-UNSO junk turning on "holodomor" function for no reason. I meant that Western Ukraine where you are from prefered to complain instead of lifting up living standards. Your marginal group of New Ukraine Nazies is stewing in their own juice.


See above, I cut a take although you understood me perfectly. You merely wanted to act innocent victim. Just be sincere, that's it. At least in that case I wouldn't need to cut a take another time.


That's much better, bravo. Wanted it or not but you were much more candid this time and couldn't curb your natural hatred towards anybody who didn't share you nazy views. Just to clarify things for other people (not for you since you'll anyway pervert my words over and over again) I may say that I respect rights of normal Ukranians regardless of part of the country they are as long as their minds are free of "eternal martyr" complexes which only makes them seek for enemies doing nothing. You're with your views just poor attempt at being Ukranian who you weepingly claim to be.


You don't have to. You again play as if you're "über alles" in Ukraine and only your Ukranian is "pure as a water blah-blah". It's well-known fact that Benderovian (deliberately Polonized and Germanized) can be hardly understood by those who speak proper Ukranian.

One can be appreciated when he objectively appreciates others.

See you say that I'm allegedly a chauvinist because you need my chauvinism as an air to breath, as legs to stand on. Thankfully I'm conscious enough not to judge about the whole nation basing on some of its specimen but I can't stand nazies like you with a brain dead confidence that they represent here the whole Ukranian nation. Fortunately you’re just pathetic hooray-patriot same as those who here in Russia support putin. At that point you may apply all adjectives that you did for putin followers to yourself as well. You oppose them but without them your benderovian murmur that is not worth a jigger… And yes feel free to further consider me an enemy. This is somewhat of a compliment for me.


Says who?! This is you whose chauvinistic entity shines through all your words. If you still don’t realize it you may either start being honest or go educate yourself on what the word “chauvinist” is.

P.S. Sorry for the late answer I've just came across this "masterpiece".

Natty just a piece of advice for the future... Stop looking for enemies and render it as if everybody has been an enemy of sooo goody Ukranian nation. Mind your own business and if you are not satisfied with the living welfare in Russia pls do some good for Ukraine and set us an example to follow... before it's too late and it goes bankrupt. Stop barking.

Listen, advisor, you said that I fled to Canada from L'viv (which I overestimate in your words somehow) in order not to die of hunger. Then you said that Ukrainians don't understand my language and that I am an outcast. Did I misinterpret something?


What's wrong with me saying it? Naming some people "enemies" I am not saying that I am going to shoot them or beat them up. I just strongly disagree with them and consider their thoughts not logical - that's it. So, please, stop martyrdom about which you were whining for so long yourself. By the way, I am not presenting Ukraine as a martyr. I am just defending its actions in the past, in many of which some consider themselves to be martyrs. Should I mention other countries while presenting my point of view? Probably, but to mention all involved will dilute the essence of what I am saying.


Knowing your language with excellence (of course, I don't, - it takes time and lots of practice) was always considered as a bad sign for chauvinists like you. Why shouldn't I be proud of knowing my language and comparing it to purity of water? I would be glad and happy to hear anybody else here and in Russia to say the same words about their languages.


Benderovian? What in hell are you talking about? What language is that? Do you speak it in Russia when you get drunk? I never spoke "Benderovian". I speak some languages, but this one escapes even my general knowledge. By the way, if you have a dictionary - let me know - I'll buy and check it out.


Sorry man, but this is past nuts. Inviting Polish to Ukraine when it will be rich and more interesting for tourists is my "chauvinistic behavior"? Wake up. "Says who?" - says what? Am I missing something?


It's Russian business what you are doing up there. I am not interested in your welfare and economics as long as it doesn't involve my home. Russia keeps on putting its nose in my country's affairs, doesn't it? Would you answer this question without any bias? I wish it lived with Ukraine as Poland lives with Lithuania, or Germany with France.


I am not a dog to bark. But since you consider it to be barking and you understood so much as to write such a long reply - it doesn't bother me, call it whatever you want.

What?! :)) Are you raving?
Do you have anything meaningful to add?

People who had nothing to do with the atrocities are not responsible. If Adolph Hitler had a son or daughter who was innocent of the crimes of the father then even that person could not be held accountable.

You quoted somebody else. :)

I don't see it that way at all. Where did he say that. I just think that he is sensitive to being criticized because he comes from Lviv. There are thousands of people like him in Canada, and he tried to defend the good name of many people like him. My family member was in UPA. Do I have to be judged by that? Another one was in SS Galicia, so I have to be judged by that too. I have never met them, but I wish I could speak to them and find out their side of the story. My parents were moved form Ukrainian villages in 1947 to Poland having 2 hours to pack, not knowing where they were going. My grandfather was sent to Syberia, because Russians took all the men from the village - for nothing, just because they were Ukainian men and were probably sent due to the fact that every man had to help UPA. Which was not the case. He survived but ......he came back the half man he was after 7 years. Most didn't make it. Does the family history make me a hate monger???? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't but I would take Nathan's word over yours because we are sharing similar history.


But I am not Russian, however I can understand where he is coming from for reasons mentioned above.


I am an ass then.


We all have those skills but sometimes emotions take over and when it comes to Ukraine I will always associate myself with it. I am able to see what you are saying, but sometimes all we have is emotions. Until they are dealt with, thinking is not going to change on my part. Therefore, I like to be associated with Ukraine not only in connection to UPA but also in connection with the good characteristics of Ukraine. I am tired of being viewed as an UPA associate. I understand why UPA did, what they did. End of story. What about the 5 million Ukrainians who were starved to death????? One can really develop a paranoia while being treated like that. Don't you think? So much for behavioural psychology.

He is just being Ukrainian, who is tired of being labeled. So am I. I know it is not coming directly from you, but over the years I have heard how bad Ukrainians are from Poles, Russians and Jews. I have heard how cruel Ukrainians are. I haven't heard anything positive. By default most nations have both: the positive and negative. Only lately the image of the Ukrainian in Poland has changed due to orange revolution. I don't think that anybody can relate unless they are Ukrainians.


I think he is being patriotic. I understand where he is coming from and I don't think you can relate to it, because your history is different.


I am not sure. I though you were like Kostia, but I am glad that you are not. The truth is that Russia has many interests in the Ukraine and is having a hard time letting it go.


LOL. I speak Ukrainian but by your standards it might be Banderovian;). I speak a mix of my parent's dialect mixed with the Canadian Ukrainian. I have never gone to school since I was educated in Poland and now I am finishing off my education in English.

I had never had a problem communicating with Ukrainians from different parts of the world. Language has never been a problem.
PS. I think that Nathan can fight his own battles though. I have not spoken on his behalf, only mine own.

MODs- don't put it in a Random Thread - it is mostly on topic. Thank you;)

Sorry, I meant Scorpio. (I don't want to get my Poles, Germans, Ukrainians, Russians and Czechs mixed up.)

Thank you, Miranda, for understanding. I wanted to give a reply to Sasha, but basically all I wanted to say was in your words. I'll add just a bit.


Proof that I am a healthy human being who loves his country as well as all its neighbors as long as they are not spitting in my soup.

Sasha, I am for life and not for war. I want my country to be free as all the others. I hate when outside forces keep on influencing elections, bribing politicians and playing in media by lives of millions of people. You know why? Because it steals future from many young generations who would like to live a normal life and not in a politically and economically retarded circumstances.

I don't need attention as you mentioned to be one of my primary concerns and of those who share my views. Do I like Polish? Of course, I do. I have with Poland more than you could ever imagine.


The same seems impossible for you to be in my place and see it through my eyes. I am not saying that you overestimate Moscow or that you fled from it to Canada. I never said that Russians can't understand what you are saying just because I have a different viewpoint. "Uber alles" - if this was my objective, I would be mentioning tanks and Moscow's levelling which I never did. So, Sasha, be so kind not to twist what I am saying.

Some politicians of your country, e.g. Nemcov or Yavlinskij who represent Russia the whole world dreams of and respects because they passed over limited chauvinistic ideas of many and began to work on improving democratic way of life in your country. Let Russia work with its problems and Ukraine - with its own. That's all I am saying.

Polish historian Pawel Jasienica said in the late fifties
"We have to stop deliberations which lands in the East are more Polish or more Russian and get used to the fact they are Ukrainian."

And we did it.
But not our Russian neighbors.
They still prefer old fairy tales of "Malorossiya".

Yes, Borrka, I know. If this disease of treating others as "malo" can't be cured in Russia, I wish Ukraine catch this disease and become sick as well. This way we will look at each other similarly with no respect and with great arrogance.

- Unlike my family members that were cold blooded murdered by their ukrainian neighbors during their sleep; they did not have a chance to move back to Poland. Take your ukraininan whining somewhere else and try to explain it to someone who doesn’t know any better. The Wisla action was the most civilized and NEEDED way of getting rid of you... I wish my family members were given this option.

Frankly, I think that any type of dialogue between Poland and ua should not continued until ukraininas come forward, admit their wrongdoing, punish the murders and organize some sort of reimbursement for the survived victims. Until then we really have nothing to talk about because our relation will never be healthy.

yep, against their will.


now you are whining. If it was up to me I would give them the choice, unfortunately I am not going to take the responsibility for all the things Ukrainians did to Poles.

It is obvious that you are looking for a scapegoat but you will not find one in ME. So tough lack Juliet. You need to grow up and it is always difficult.

Next time try to comment on post somebody has actually written to you, instead of taking my replies out of context. Thank you.

You should, its your fault by association.

So now we are all responsible for our forefathers misdemeanors.

Of course not but developing a plausibly cynical and hypocritical line of thought that puts blame on everyone but Poles takes time.

How did they know the murderers were Ukies if they were killed asleep? Plus many Polish I know can't distinguish between Russian and Ukrainian. And I am not blaming anyone here - it's Ok.

It is a proven fact that Russians wore uniform to pronounce their belonging to UPA just to fool Poles and bring in anger against Ukrainians because this way it is much easier to fight.


Cool, Juliet. But it would be of advantage to both nations if you did Wisla to yourself I think - no conflict would have risen and no need to get rid of anybody.

Stop desperately raving, making things up, trying to get out of a scrape and broadcast your BS. Be honest, do me a favour. I won't ask for more. It's proven fact that Ukies themselves killed for instance much more Poles in Volhynia than Soviets did in Katyn. It's well known fact that Polish government this one and I'm 101% sure the one that will be after prefers to shut their eyes on this fact for solely political reason.


Defending oneself and accusing others is some different things I guess. Don't you agree?


Why in the world should you be judged? The best you can do now is not to be blind or insincere taking an honest look at bygone events. As for your relatives God's their judge.


It is bad. But why do you tell it as if only Ukranians starved to death at that time? How about millions of Russians starved to death at the same period?


Ok. You may consider me a Russian who's tired of being labeled. Have I ever tried to ennoble my nation by disdaining any other?


You are after equal attitude with no arrogance. So am I. So why enlighten me pls Const for the chauvinistic BS (being said not serious btw) is a Russian swine and Nat for the alike stuff being said in absolutely serious and aggressive manner is patriotic? It seems like for "nats" good Russian is Russian on bended knee before anybody, self-torturing with a permanent guilt-complex... or who knows maybe even dead Russian. How do you conceive of me dealing with that?


No wonder, I can't sometimes either. Are you always able to distinguish Mr. Vseja-Ukraine?

Well, well, well Mr "good policeman" (Sasha).

Let us look at some very similar issue for a while.
Reading old commie books on the Warsaw 1944 Uprising you're gonna find an obligatory information on "Ukrainian" butchers committing the worse crimes on civilians, raping even kids and killing wounded AK soldiers.

It was a common propaganda standard of the Polish NKVD branch and quite successful I have to admit.
Even today some people use to believe this lie.

But you know Sasha the times they are a-changin'.
Today historians have a perfect knowledge of auxiliary troops' ethnic composition - Russians and some Russified Belorussians.
With names and all personal records of more than 10000 killers who later joined the Vlasov Army.
The only Ukrainian unit (400 troops) so called Volhynian Legion was withdrawn after one week from Warsaw.

Generally Soviets were never whitewashing RONA or ROA leaving this noble job to "white" emigres.

So what was the reason for this misinformation if not strengthening of thePolish-Ukrainian hatred ?
And that is why I can easy believe in Soviets "playing" UPA.

Wow, what a battle of nationalisms! There's only a Jewish hothead (or blockhead which is often the same) lacking here who would wrote that all of you, Slavs and Germans, are bloody killers and that except of Holocaust and pogroms no history is worth discussion.

So, JulietEcho, you live in US and condemn Ukrainian "barbarians". And you are right, innocent people being murdered is always a crime, even if those people are children, wives or parents of criminals.

Tell me, have you seen any historical maps? I have and plenty of them. And I know that in 13th century Poland's eastern borders were generally the same as now and Chełm and Przemyśl weren't even Polish towns then. They belong to Ukrainians (or ancient Rus' inhabitants if you like it that way).

I won't tell all the story about the subsequent Polish aggression onto Ukrainian, Belorussian, Lithuanian, Latvian etc lands, I want to point out though that in 16th or 17th century that aggression changed from a mere occupation (a common thing which brought with it things both bad and good) to severe polonization and catholicization — either you become a Polish speaking catholic or a nobody and even worse. If local people tried to defend their identity they got killed and abused. And that's why Chmelnicky uprising happened (which was not first but something like seventh in a row).

Of course Henryk Sienkiewicz didn't write about that, he was too much of a patriot. Bolesław Prus preferred to be an honest man (impossible thing for a patriot) and criticized him for that. I try not to turn into a patriot too, though I respect my country.

OK, more to the point. By December 1918 all predominantly Polish lands gained independence and were united. To the east lay lands where there were less than 40% Poles and whose inhabitants wouldn't live under an empire any longer too.

So, "za naszą i waszą wolność"? No. Poles chose to conquer those lands. Freedom from old empires turned out to be a freedom to make a new one.

Western Ukrainians who created their own state were driven out of it or made 2nd sort people in their homeland. To make things worse Polish government settled ethnic Poles on the eastern border though there was no surplus of land there. Even before that Ukrainians were mostly poor peasants and all major landowners were Polish. No need to say that Ukrainian culture was suppressed just like Polish one before 1918. So, do you expect Ukrainians like Poles?

Of course those Western Ukrainian army officers who started nationalistic movement in 1922 which eventually led to UPA organization were radicals and Nazi sympathizers (until 1941-42). That's why there weren't supported by W. Ukrainian majority until 1939-1941 when this land became a playground for Hitler and Stalin and in those times only radicals could survive, unfortunately.

So they were indeed bad guys... no better than Polish government which sympathize with Nazis too (taking part in Czechoslovakia dismemberment in 1938) and punished all Ukrainian people for those radicals actions with so called "Pacyfikacja" (in Russian "zachistka" — a police force terror attack on civilians). And Bereza Kartuska concentration camp is not a good part of Polish history.

Yes, UPA (or Nazi collaborationist which is not the same) did murder many thousands of innocent civilians and I'm not comfortable that those people are so blatantly proclaimed heroes in Ukraine. Heroes they were as they didn't spare their own lives to defend their land but they were murderers in the first place, alas.

However you forgot that all that happened not in Polish but in Ukrainian territory and that Armia Krajowa had its revenge on Ukrainians by killing thousands of innocent people as well. So, why don't you notice their atrocities?

Maybe it's time for you Poles to reject your own imperialism and acknowledge that "Polska od morza do morza" was no better than "Deutschland über Alles" or "velikaya Rossiya" and that it was your ancestors who laid the foundation for Polish-Ukrainian conflict?

Now, Sasha. You say that no Russian in his right mind is Ukrainophobic. Well, I'm Russian myself (and I hope that you wouldn't accuse me of bias against you) but I live and Eastern Ukraine and have a bit different view. I have seen, read and heard too much to have any doubt that typical Russian patriot's attitude to Ukrainians is ignorance + superiority complex + "brotherly feelings".

In plain words this attitude is "there's no Ukraine, there's no Ukrainians, there's no Ukrainian language... let's unite". I didn't invent this formula, I heard it from a Russian Duma deputy on TV in 2005.

Of course not every Russian is a patriot (and an idiot like that man having said it to Ukrainians) yet patriots in today's Russia are majority, they rule your country and will be ruling it for a long time.

And please don't tell us which Ukrainian language we do understand and which we don't. Of course Canadian and American Ukrainians... they are much like Russian émigrés living in France — loving their homeland of the past, having not so much in common with it in present but thinking themselves wiser than those who remained there.

And you, Nathan, just try to be less patriotic because it's bad for human brain.
I don't want to discuss with you UPA, massacres of Poles in 1942-44 which hardly can be blamed on Soviet partisans, Shukhevich, who was a Nazi German army officer for a couple of years and now he is proclaimed a hero of Ukraine, and all this history. I want it to become just history. We live in a complicated country and there's no need to brood on it excessively.

Let me just quote myself:
Freedom from old empires turned out to be a freedom to make a new one.
I live in Eastern Ukraine and speak Russian still I don't vote for Yanukovich and never will. In 2004 I voted for Yushchenko hoping to see a new, more European and civilized government. Instead I got a nationalistic moron for a president who does everything he can to alienate us from "self-conscious" Ukrainians and does nothing to make our country closer to EU.

In March 2006 the then minister of justice came on TV (news on "1+1") and called people living and Eastern and Southern Ukraine "savages who don't like to wash themselves". Imagine an Anglo-Canadian politician insulting French Canadians like that. He would be forced to resign the next morning.

However "Europeans" from Ukrainian establishment preferred not to notice that.
Has such a state any future, what do you think?

good post Blacklack:)

The only things that appear to be mixed here are the incoherent pictures in your brain. First you claim that Poles have dark complexion because light skinned Poles mixed with pale Polish Jews. By what kinf of magic? Did they chew tobacco during sex?

Now you're claiming that Poles are mixed with other races "slaves"? Did you mean Slavs?
Did you ever know Poles ARE Slavs?

No, no, "slaves" is a typo, I meant "slavs" as in Ukrainians, Czechs, Russians, Kashubians, Sorbs, etc. I also made the mistake of typing "races" when I really meant "ethnicities". We are all caucasians so what does it matter?

As for pale jew and pale pole creating a dark skinned pole...I never wrote that. One question I have about jews though...when you see drawings of the ancient Canaanites and other artwork featuring them, they are dark. So why is it Polish Jews are mostly light complected? Wouldn't that mean they are mixed with people who have lighter skin tones?

Indeed nice post. I just want to clarify something.


Privet! These all tightly depends on which mind we would call "right". I still insist on that the Russian in a right mind would be free of a standard garderobe of traits you listed such as ignorance etc. Don't get me wrong I've seen loads of that stuff and may still see it for one when there's a Zhirinovki's interview on TV or wherever. But he's not all Russia and... he is not a patriot. Same with others... An idiot or just someone who doesn't take into consideration other people's feelings can't be a patriot inherently. Therefore I wouldn't with a term "patriot" at that point or if you still want to I would put in front of it the "pseudo-" prefix.

My purpose was merely to show that Nathan's approach essentially duplicated what you heard in Russian Duma with the only exception of the descriptive adjective... "Ukranian" instead of "Russian".


Nice. I would even say it was all the same.

Not necessarily. Ashkenazi Jews (ones who lived in Poland) actually didn't mix that much with the local population once the ethnic groups has been established. In fact, they were fairly isolated and the outflux and influx of blood was very limited. Hence some specific medical conditions typical mostly to Jews (Jakobs-Kreutzfeld syndrome comes to mind) as a result of inbreeding.

The skin color of ancient Jews and those who are considered Jews today is a story long gone. Some DNA research would indicate that Ashkenazi wome are actually not Jewish as their mitochondrial DNA has little in common with Middle-Eastern gene pool. There is a strong possibility that male Jews having imiigrated to various European countries mated with local women and thus created that specific offshoot of who now considers themselves Jewish.

That would indicate though, that many Jews are not really Jews since, according to Orthodox Jewish law, it is only the mother who can pass on the Jewishness.

So there. Just when you thought you were Jewish :)