Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?

I have no beef with Wrocław but in Gdańsk we were a major part of the ruling class and a majority for quite a bit, also Danzing during its heyday was a free city.


Its quite different for Gdańsk, there's our royal castles and a whole LOT of stuff we built in Gdańsk, there's very few things Ukrainians built in Lwów not to mention we were active in Gdańsk patrician classes and a large part of them.


Nope, like i said Wrocław is definitely closer to Germany then to Poland, Gdańsk is arguable and Poznań is as Polish as it gets, but Szczecin and Wrocław, yeah.

Paradoxally, most Poles exiled from Lwów came to Wrocław to replace exiled Germans, my family among them.

Yes...I read of it...most people now living in Silesia are eastern Poles. Changing the face of this part of the land irrevocably.

Sok? Given the possibility...would you try to make it back to the home of your forefathers?
I personally would love to get to know Breslau but couldn't probably be arsed to relocate there..

Not really no, the people who came here were the elite of the nation, Lwów before the war was the centre of science, education and art so i daresay Wrocław is in good hands and its not like you cant come and live here.

That's great to hear! Really...

To give you some idea, people who live in Wrocław now are children and grandchildren of people who built those in Lwów (so much for Nathans Ukrainians Lwów by the way):

Beautiful!

Nathan since i'm a firm believer that pictures speak better than words:

We didnt build some stuff in Lwów Nathan, we have built all of it, almost every building in the city built between 1400s and 1939s is built by Poles or funded by Poles, you live in a historically Polish city, every street, every bridge and nearly every structure within the last 500 years was built by us.

Do we think you stole our land? No we dont, Stalin and Russia chose for Ukraine, chose for Poland and chose for Germany, thats why Lwów is in Ukraine and Wrocław in Poland, no we dont want to take it from you now or ever, we do not hold a grudge against you so stop inventing your own fascist little version of history.

Lwów used to be one of the greatest Polish city, now its in Ukraine you dont have to invent new history for it, no one in Poland is mad at Ukrainians, no one wants to take it back.

The only beef i personally have with Ukraianians living on our former lands is that you allow this to happen to our heritage:

When we took over German lands we rebuilt German landmarks and we maintain them as beatifull pieces of history, why cant you do the same to what Poland left behind? Lwów is an unkept mess.

To be honest, guys.
Some European cities have changed their "owners" .
I mean Breslau/Wroclaw. Stettin/Szczecin, Vilnius/Wilno and Lviv/Lwow make about the same category.

(But for sure not Kiev or Poznan.
Kiev was always center of the Ukrainian culture - same way like Poznan an old capital of Poland)

It's better for all of us to accept the changes lol.

talk in your own name only

I'm talking in the name of Polish goverment and the majority of Poles, you're some kind of extreme right redneck, Iron, your opinions are not exactly representative of the majority in Poland.

Sokrates,
Picture #3 - Hotel George built in 1901 under Austro-Hungarian empire and designed by two Austrian architecs from Vienna (Ukrainian - Viden') Ferdinand Fellner and Herman Helmer. Was it Poland and where they Polish? ;)

Picture # 4 is the church of St. Jura (St. George Cathedral) built at the place of burnt by Poles in 1340 wooden church. In the form it is right now, the Church was built in 1746-1762 by Ukrainian Catholic metropolitans Athanasij and Lev Sheptyckij - not by Poles.

Picture # 6 - Italian Courtyard located in the former residence of Konstiantyn Kornyakt, extremely rich Greek merchant dealing in wine along the whole coast of the Black Sea. He ordered a palace to be built for himself when he moved into L'viv around 1580. Nothing Polish in here either.

Picture # 15 (out of 16) Chapel of Boyim (one of my favorite chapels, small and so filled with details) - built in 1671 for a rich Hungarian merchant Boyim, where 3 generations of his family are buried. I have to acknowledge, though, that his wife was Polish. :) (does he count as Polish because of that?)

Potocki palace and St. Elisabeth church built by Roman Catholics, I wouldn't argue.
Regarding Lviv University Ivana Franka - built in 1661 according to Hadyach agreement between Ukrainian Cossacks and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, where a Ruthenian university had to be built in L'viv. L'viv Politech University was built in 1817 as a secondary technical school by Austrian empire and upgraded in 1844 to Technical Academy.

So much to your 90% and over myth, Sokrates. I wish I had more time since I learn myself along the way.
Interesting fact: in 1870 Franz Joseph l of Austria issued a decree, in which Polish was made official language of the school. Many professors had to resign because of that. Bastardic behavior on Austrian part. I just wonder what could have caused such suck-up policy by Tiroles. And then some lists of "famous alumni" with Polish lastnames appear. No wonder!

By the way, Sokrates, thank you for bringing the photos of L'viv. 90% - of course, NO!

Well Nathan since you're resorting to lying, check who financed George Hotel and who owned it.

Yeah, Poles, Boyim was a Pole sorry, yes he had Hungarian roots, several generations back.

Picture 6 is Sobieskis Royal Castle and has nothing to do with what you claim.

As for the church of Saint Jura i see you resorted to ediiting Wikipedia again, just like you did when you made a number of Poles in a certain battle 10 times larger than in reality :)

Szeptyccy founded the church which was built and approved by Poles, it was our city you see and we had to approve of projects and since your people were already 200 years behind Europe Marco Lucani and Jerzy Wieniawski built it for you :)

And thats the same with all of it, you will resort to anything including lies, if an Austrian architect builds something that Poles funded its immidietaly not Polish:)) Rest assured there's enough buildings that our architects made it and very few that yours did.

Of course in the end Lwów will get back to Poland, your poverty stricken country wont survive on its own, or maybe we'll have a war in the future and it'll go like all the wars you had with us, one way or the other i dont think we should take our city back but i'm pretty convinced it will get back to us in due time :)

Why are we associating Wrocław with Lviv so much? honestly, I just spent half an hour searching for historical significance between the two and found nothing. The two are twin cities, but that doesn't mean they are in anyway historically connected. Poland has twin cities all the way in South America and South Africa....

If by historical control, Wrocław has only been under Poland, Bohemia(Polish dynasty), Austria, Prussia(German empire), and Germany(under Nazism).

I have never in my life changed anything or even added to Wikipedia. I will definately do add more about Ukraine in the future when I will have more knowledge about my country's history.

Picture #6, right above BB's post is Italian courtyard in Kornyakt's residence, stop making things up if you have no idea what you are posting. Potocki palace is #5.

Interesting thing: Boim was a Hungarian merchant, Wikipedia puts it Jerzy Boim; Boim chapel was designed as well as Bernardine Church (now St. Andrew's) and townhall by Andreas Bemer of German/Czech origin, Wikipedia calls him Andrzej Bemer. Why do you always have to change everyone into Poles? Don't have enough of talented people?

Listen, Lviv was and will be a city built by enourmous array of cultural heritages - Greek, Armenian, Austrian, Polish, German, Ukrainian, Lithuanian - name it. It will never be a city of some single heritage, since neither can be attributed even with 30% of pure input. And my post #181 (no matter how limited it is) proves it.

Many historical monuments are being renovated in L'viv and are in very good condition - look at pics above, some are in dire need of more funds, no doubt. It is difficult, but slowly and surely it will be done. I think 2012 will see great influx of tourists from all over Europe and this will boost L'viv's budget for further improvements.

Slo, if you like biology, this is for you - "Traktat pro wlastywosti khameleoniw" :)



It is interesting when people, having no arguments anymore, open up their true nature like a flower on a beautiful summer morning. All pretense disappears. I was surprised, I thought what happened to Sokrates. I looked for him and found now again. :)

No sh*t and when you used battle won by Ukrainians where someone mysteriously multiplied 10 times the number of Poles that actually took part in the battle.


Nathan there's nothing about arguements, all buildings posted were built or funded by Poles and there's more, we have governed and developed Lwów.

As for getting it back, Ukraine is poor, your state will not survive long term so its a pretty safe bet that we will at some point in the future get Lwów within our borders again.

You know how it ended so many times before, Sokrates. Later you will be sniffling to EU that Ukaine was rough on you in the past. Don't go the same road again. :)

As to poverty, ask BB about Eastern Germany and what communism did to it in just 45 years. Being one of the most powerful economies, it is still harsh on the western part, if I understand it right. And as far as I know communism too was a bit different in East Berlin as compared to SU. Ukraine finally defined its borders 18 years ago, so we are slowly but surely be moving in the right direction. Thanks for interest, though. It is nice to see the neighbor to watch your back. You always know that there is someone who in difficult times will scratch it for you. Greatly appreciated. Russians - from the front and Poles - from behind; Wow, what a beautiful love sandwich! So cosy! Kisses to both.

Yes, they stole. Lwów is our, we want the town back but without ukrainians.

Yep, you lost every war you fought with us.


Militarily? Your own general said your tanks have 150 gallons of juice per machine and pilots fly 12 hours a year, we'd run over Ukraine in a week.

Economically? We've got 2x your GDP while having 10 milion people, in any conflict with Poland, economic, political or military you have about as a snowballs chance in hell of winning anything.

Quite frankly you should keep your little UPA nazis quiet because unlike Poland-Germany Ukraine is seen as redundant by EU and Russia so if you start saber rattling and we kick your ass no one will as much as lift a finger to help you.

I'm talking in my name only and never claimed otherwise. On the other hand you are clown, no sorry, maybe you are officially elected ombudsmen for Polish government but if not you are ( I think is French word to best describe you) buffoon :P


thats the spirit !


voice of people has spoken - and I like it! as they say vox populi vox dei ...


Oh please you are embarrassing me ........do you care for a drink of hemlock, Socrates ?
:p

Not really, i'm not saying that we should get Lwów back, i'm saying that Ukraine and Belarus are bound to dissolve as political entities.

If you would had paid some attension to what I'm saying - I think that
Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

Never mind the means lets focus on results :P

No you implied that we should take it from Ukraine which I and most of the Poles are against.

Actually, it's more likely that the Ukrainian state will split in half (if you look at the Russian-Ukrainian split, it's almost straight down the middle - even the last Presidential election showed this!) and Lwów will become the capital of a Western Ukraine state. The Russian side may very well just become another Russian puppet state. Certainly though, no independent Western Ukraine state will be rushing to join Poland.


Belarus may cease to exist as an independent country, but will certainly be part of Mother Russia.

You need money to run even half the country, the only place willing to aid independent Ukraine is Poland, to put it brutally nobody else gives a sh*t. As for Russia, Ukraine is in a sh*tpit it is today because it was affiliated with Russia in the first place.


Again you need money to run the state, even minimal funds, Ukraine as a political entity doesnt have money and the situation is deteriorating.


Oh i never said they'd be rushing to do it, they'd do it as a political and economic neccesity, Ukraine split in half and not looked after by the West will need to look for protection and affiliation with others to survive, in the region the choice is either Poland or Russia.


Provided Mother Russia doesnt go the same way as Belarus and there's quite afew indicators that Russia might irrevocably fail as a state within our lifetimes.

Personally i think that Ukraine and Belarus are more likely to fall into Polish sphere of influence but that depends solely on what happens in Russia within the next 20-30 years.

I have reported some messages from this topic to Administration and upset that it is allowed here discuss Ukrainian state integrity. Is the same apply for questioning integrity of Poland?

You, discussing here, under this ugly titled topic future of Ukraine, how you are so sure in future of all other countries? What are the constants to you? Your ideological beliefs, propaganda rumor, natural resources, size, location? How you can predict future of 50 mlns nation if you can't predict future of your business or employer? I understand that some ppl here just doing nothing more than spreading out the propaganda they paid for. But majority is not, And this majority should not tolerate such abusive topics.

Nobody can be sure and for that reason we are discussing it.
It's a political board so let us have some political futurology as well.

Calm down, slo.
Political views of the huge majority of Poles are fully in line with so called Giedroyc doctrine which means support for independent Ukraine, Belorussia, Lithuania and their territorial integrity.

Some remarks in this thread are just emotional reaction for Nathan's statements.

Me too disagree with this ahistorical approach - West-Ukrainian cities, churches, castles, whatever built by Ukrainians, Armenians (lol), Austrians, Greeks, "Martians" only not by Poles who were the leading class there for more than 400 years.

Even under Austrian liberal rule it were Polish elites who decided all local issues.
No way around it.

I don't say it was justified, Ukrainians may call it Polish occupation but for God sake nobody should be free to deny the facts in accordance to his wishful thinking. !

Ukrainian state has no integrity at current, Orange Revolution showed deep divisions, even your very own state agencies know that and try fighting with Russian language use within Ukraine.


Well whats wrong with that? All countries have some future that we can deliberate upon based on current situation.


The intentions and attitude of neighboring states, the military, political and economical capital of a discussed country, its national and political integrity etc.

It was for example completely predictable that interwar Poland would get invaded by Russia and Germany, just as its completely predictable that Ukraine is unlikely to survive in its current shape and form.

Historically Ukraine was unable to survive without protection since its a recent nation having some 300 years it arrived among strong and long established neighbours, that Ukraine operates as it does happened purely because of Stalin who intentionally gave Ukraine a major Polish city and some Russian land (with a Russian minority) in Crimea to spark future conflicts.


In a way predicting future of nations is easier since we have history to fall on, many people attempt to disregard history but its great at compiling a prognosis for a nation because you know how it responds to a crisis.


Maybe its true about the IQ chart of Europe ... Sorry Slo i'm not spreading any propaganda, the facts are, Ukraine is poor, threatened and divided and barring luck or providence it has no means of surviving the long term crisis that awaits it.

And you think that an independent Western Ukraine wouldn't have money? Poland would be very eager to invest in such an area, as would Slovakia and Hungary. We can also assume that any independent Ukrainian state would make it very easy for the West to do business with - without a Russian minority agitating and demanding links with Moscow, it would be much easier to do such things.

In fact, without the very poor and run down industrial East (and possibly without Kyiv) - it's likely that a Western Ukraine state wouldn't be much poorer than Eastern Poland.


It's no worse off than Ireland, Latvia or Iceland. In fact, the Ukrainian situation isn't anywhere near 'crisis' point yet. If you'd actually been to Ukraine recently, you'd know that there's still plenty of cash going about.


A Western Ukraine out of political and economic needs would open their door to the EU rather than Poland individually - after all the history and animosity, why would Ukraine give up to Poland? It's just not realistic - and I bet 99% of Ukranians would rather be in poverty and independent than be part of a Polish state.


Russia's going nowhere. Moscow is gaining in strength day by day, and even the current crisis has done nothing to dampen the popularity of Putin - as history shows, Russians like being told what to do. The fact that Russia is steadily incorporating areas such as South Ossetia shows that they're going nowhere fast - and in fact, it seems that they've learnt from the lessons of the USSR and are only trying to annex areas which are undisputably Russian.


Ukraine may swing either way. Belarus - no chance, they're too linked up with Russia and the political elite there will always support Union with Russia over anything else.

Ukraine today is probably best compared to Poland in the early 90's - poor, but free.

Absolutely, it would be as broke as you can get (given that current Ukraine is in a bad shape and getting worse). The loss of half the economy would be bad.


Compare Slovakian and Hungarian economies and the Polish one.


The West made it clear enough they're not interesting in Ukraine, any Ukraine.


You do realise the Eastern Ukraine is actually much richer and the majority of the economy resides there?


No it is not, sorry to break your bubble but they dont have money to invest.


Stop living on the moon, Ukraine is dilapidated, its GDP is deteriorating, investors are on the low, comparing Ukraine to the above is ridiculous, even Iceland despite its bankruptsy is better off because it can count on international aid that Ukraine can not.


If EU was interested it would go in now, EU countries made repeated statements that show Europe doesnt really care nor will in the future, as far as political and economic significance Ukraine is way behind Turkey in EU accession.

Add to this that by the time such a state like Western Ukraine could realistically access EU (20+ years) Western economies will already have significant issues due to overblown social and in some places failing population so they wont like an idea of another poor state joining.

In other words it doesnt matter in what form or shape Ukraine exists, EU is unlikely to be interested in it within the next 20-30 years.


Yeah i bet that too, i also bet that they prefer to be a Polish dependency then a Russian one.


Says you, the press and academic sources say about the non-existent private sector and an economy based purely on fossile fuels exports, thats a pretty fragile setup.


Lets be clear about several things, Russia picked a fight with about the only opponent it could, Russia is not steadily incorporating anything because quite frankly Ossetia is the first (and last) military excersize in a long time and by the way Byzantine Empire incorporated areas a few decades before Crusaders sacked it.


If that happens Ukraine is f*cked, Russian Ukraine would be used as a proxy against Poland, a conflict that would economically wreck Ukraine to a point of no return.


No its not, it lacks integrity, it lacks Western investment, its poor, its deteriorating, its divided and most importantly its alone, Poland throught its transition had Germany, UK, France, US and Ukraine is well and truly alone.

The moment the West ensured that Ukraine is democratic via the Orange Revolution it lost interest, Ukrainian situation is nothing like Polish, Poland reformed in peace and quiet, protected by treaties and interests of neighbours, Ukraines existence in its basic form is threatened so is its economy.

In 1640, the edifice was purchased by Jakub Sobieski and was later inherited by his son, King Jan III Sobieski. The Polish-Lithuanian ruler remodelled it into a palatial residence, with spacious rooms and an audience hall where he signed the Eternal Peace Treaty of 1686.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korniakt_Palace


He never finished it. His son Paweł Jerzy did. ;)


Lwów university was founded by Polish king Jan Kazimierz in 1661, who issued the diploma granting the city's Jesuit Collegium. The Jesuits had tried to create the University earlier, in 1589, but without success.


Some of those who created Lwów:
Zygmunt Gorgolewski, Sebastian Czepek, Antoni Popiel, Jan Sadłowski, Piotr Krasowski, Franciszek Olędzki, Piotr Polejowski, Julian Zacharewicz, Zbigniew Brochwicz Lewiński, Wincenty Rawski, Jadwiga Horodyńka, Julian Markowski, Tomasz Dykas, Stanisław Stroiński, Zygmunt Kurczyński, Jan Osiński, Roman Ducheński... and more


I don't think so. My post would be extremely long if I wanted to name every building/monument, not to mention elements like paintings/stained glass/sculptures (for example in churches, and they have many authors) that are in Lviv now thanks to their Polish creators.

Lviv = Polish cultural heritage (not only, but mostly).


And Poland (The Ministry of Culture and National Heritage of RP) is financing this, for example: zik.com.ua/pl/news/2009/02/16/169792.

Lviv was the center of Polishness, now it is the center of Ukrainian nationalism. It will always be a Polish city (in terms of cultural heritage), but I'm afraid there are small chances that the city will belong to Poland again.