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The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #61
Yeah...sheds a different light on the many "happy desertions of german Poles to the polish forces" after they were captured. It was either that or death!

What I said all along..
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
26 Nov 2009 /  #62
Let's see how zee Germans are getting on, almost 70 years after WWII,
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8380226.stm

Quite a story that!

There were plenty people who stuck by the Poles and were impressed by their flying prowess.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #63
happy desertions of german Poles to the polish forces

first of all there were many Poles in German army who were conscripted, I think you don't know that.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #64
Germans were conscripted into the Wehrmacht (at least those who were counted at the time of the conscription as Germans - of course in the face of being a dead german POW or a living "polish deserter" I can't blame them), not non-Germans.

Ever heard of the Volksliste? There are some long threads about that already here on PF...
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #65
Germans were conscripted into the Wehrmacht

Not only Germans ....also those who were seen as a Germans by the German state, for example if someone was born in 1917 in Poznan he was citizen of the German state (doesn't matter nomenclature) as such he after 1939 was automatically counted as German citizen and conscription followed more often then not.

Roughly the same happened to children born to parents who were one time citizen of German state before WWI.
So, people were Poles, no doubt about it but were threated by German state as Germans.

Ever heard of the Volksliste?

Sure, but never could be bothered to memorize this bureaucratic BS, I know that as long as Germans needed recruits they weren't too particular about way to get it!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #66
Not only Germans ....also those who were seen as a Germans by the German state,

Well...they had subscribed to the Volksliste I, so they saw themselves as full Germans. Nothing automatically about it...

I know that as long as Germans needed recruits they weren't too particular about way to get it!

Well...as a bureaucratic nation we just don't take foreign nationals by force into our army. As doesn't do any other nation!
Imagine the US forcing Taliban into their army...wouldn't work well, right? But the German army should have done?
Nonetheless I came about that interesting notion quite often here on PF....;)
But fact is no non-German was allowed to serve in the Wehrmacht...you had to be of 18 years old, healthy and german citizen, period!

So, people were Poles, no doubt about it but were threated by German state as Germans.

By the same token just because there now was a Poland doesn't mean that all the millions of people in the new borders were now automatically Poles or wanted to be, right?
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #67
Well...they had subscribed to the Volksliste I, so they saw themselves as full Germans. Nothing automatically about it...

I'm pretty sure that on the lands which were part of Germany before WWI it was automatic process, exempt those actively involved into institutions of independent Polish state.

There were some Germans, no doubt but you are trying to impose your false view that most of the Poles serving in German army were of German origin or were volunteers.

When in fact most of them were conscript who were forced to be a part of German army and more often then not their family were hostage.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #68
There were some Germans, no doubt but you are trying to impose your false view that most of the Poles serving in German army were of German origin or were volunteers.

There were no Poles in the Wehrmacht, period! Get that into your head!
Again, the rules were the same to any other modern army of that time...18, male, healthy and citizen of the state...

Any Germans living in what became Poland after the Treaty of Versailles (but not only in Poland. Volksdeutsche lived in many of the new founded countries after WWI) were asked if they would subscribe to the Volksliste, if not they decided to be Poles, if they subscribed under "I" they counted themselves as full blooded Germans, eligible for conscription.

That's all there is, really!

When in fact most of them were conscript who were forced to be a part of German army and more often then not their family were hostage.

That's just crap!

FYI:

Volksliste 1:
Ethnic Germans, which were active in the cause FOR Germany, in the inter-war years (1918 - 1939)

Volksliste 2:
Persons, who declared themselves for the Germanic "Volkstum"

Volksliste 3:
Persons, in occupied countries, who were certified of Germanic origin AND / OR "Eindeutschungsfähigkeit"

Volksliste 4:
Polonisierte (polished) Germans, later racial worthy (active) enemies of the III. Reich; (fighting for Germany to gain the "Wehrwürde")

One estimate was that there were well over 500k. This included those that came from Galicia, Volhynia, the Baltic areas and Polish Germans who were resettled in the fall of 1939.
The following group accounted for about 200k people, Besserabia, Northern Bukovina, in mid 1940 and Southern Bukovina and the Dobruja in the fall of 1940.

Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #69
That's just crap!

thats reality and you are talking theory!

I will look for some links about
But if parents were German citizen before WWI when Polish state doesn't existed they and their children were automatically granted German citizenship after 1939 and then eventually conscripted to German army. And yes, they didn't protest, would you?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #70
thats reality and you are talking theory!

How do you think it should have worked in reality Iron?
There hadn't been Gestapo behind the german front lines needing to shot and control the soldiers. Do you really think Germany had the men free to take the millions of families "hostage"?

How effective should these soldiers have been....do you think Taliban would be very effective in the US army in Afghanistan?
Did the Poles or the Brits or anybody else force Germans to fight for them???? Of course not..it's impossible...it's illogical...

To say they were true Poles and somehow "forced" by the mean Germans was a convenient alibi AFTER the war was lost (or they became POW's). Most of them would had been happy Nazis if Germany would had won...you better don't forget that!
Wroclaw Boy  
26 Nov 2009 /  #71
happy Nazis

"Im happy oh so happy" lah lah lah, the general feeling of that time well whilst the Nazi's were winning atleast.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #72
How do you think it should have worked in reality

Simple, conscript deserted, unit is sending telegram, and his family is busted - how hard it could be ?
ShortHairThug - | 1,103  
26 Nov 2009 /  #73
Most of them would had been happy Nazis if Germany would had won...you better don't forget that!

Most of them would have done what they had to do for themselves and for their families to survive the war. They were not driven by Ideology or some false sens of patriotism for Germany but circumstances they found themselves in ..... you better don't forget that!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #74
Simple, conscript deserted, unit is sending telegram, and his family is busted - how hard it could be ?

I never heard of that actually! ;)

And where are all the hostage camps for Wehrmacht soldiers families?
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #75
And where are all the hostage camps for Wehrmacht soldiers families?

Their homes? Do you think that they could emigrate to USA for example ?

I never heard of that actually! ;)

Why should you?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #76
Why should you?

Because that's my field of history? Because it is part of my families history? Because there were many german Silesians who felt Germans but where also forced to be polish as the new state took over?

Why should you?
Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
26 Nov 2009 /  #77
Most of them would have done what they had to do for themselves and for their families to survive the war. They were not driven by Ideology or some false sens of patriotism for Germany but circumstances they found themselves in ..... you better don't forget that!

This is true, the first Polish guy I ever met told me a story of how his grand father was marched from his home, he either went or his parents and sisters and him were dead...he was only 16...not much of a choice really.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #78
not much of a choice really.

Yeah..sure...excuse me but after the war everybody and their grandmom was a victim suddenly.
Nobody wanted to have anything to do anymore with the dirty kid Germany.
Not to mention that saying what really happened would had often meant abuse and death by the new rulers.

I can't believe how gullible some are!

Even believing that forced foreigners in the Wehrmacht against all logic and facts instead to face the hard truths....
Wroclaw Boy  
26 Nov 2009 /  #79
Even believing that forced foreigners in the Wehrmacht against all logic and facts instead to face the hard truths....

I love the scene in Schindlers List when Amon Goeth says Heil Hitler just before they hang him. Not sure if thats 100% true to reality.

Nobody wanted to have anything to do anymore with the dirty kid Germany.

and its history, you say Germany existed from what? 1875? so what were you before then a colony? speaking only German amongst foreigners. hang on a minute ill revive the thread.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #80
Because there were many german Silesians who felt Germans but where also forced to be polish as the new state took over?

I don't doubt it !
But you have only heard part of the story, do you doubt that there were polish Silesians whoe were forced to be a German soldiers.

Why should you?

Because its a part of history and because nephew of my great grandmother was in Waffen-SS and was one of those Polish citizen who felt German - so I know what I'm talking about.

And I know the difference between forced conscription and volunteers, verstanden?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #81
And I know the difference between forced conscription and volunteers, verstanden?

Volunteers were mostly for the Waffen-SS as those had their age limit at 17 whereas the Wehrmacht had to wait till 18....most were conscripts.

Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht are totally different parts of shoes (boots?), not only because that was a volunteer force but they took alot of foreigners into their ranks...the first european army as some say.

The Wehrmacht did not!
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #82
foreigners

He was only Polish citizen speaking German at home with German surname, he become some kind of officer, don't know much.

Wehrmacht are totally different parts of shoes

Sure, thats zee German myth,
anyway if someone was decreed German citizen and then called to arms, it wasn't much he could do, was it?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #83
Sure, thats zee German myth,

No it's a fact!

The Waffen-SS took younger people and foreigners....the Wehrmacht did not!

anyway if someone was decreed German citizen and then called to arms, it wasn't much he could do, was it?

When he was conscripted then he was german citizen! You need to decide what your relative was Iron! ;)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
26 Nov 2009 /  #84
Yes, thats my point, people on polish territories incorporated into Germany were granted German citizenship whatever they wanted it or not.
Others were kicked out.
How hard is it to understand ?

You need to decide what your relative was Iron! ;)

I reluctantly have given him as an example of ethnic Germans who were Polish citizens but have chosen German citizenship and sided with Germany during the WWII, to let you know that I do know what I'm talking about.

You are blissfully unaware of many things.:P

Did you know that Bavaria were settled by Avars?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
26 Nov 2009 /  #85
How hard is it to understand ?

The point I try to beat into your thick skull (with all respect of course) is that no Pole could be lawfully conscripted into the Wehrmacht! Bureaucracy and all that...(and you know what sucker for rules we are).

If he was Pole then he should have been a member of the polish forces or if lived in Germany and he felt polish then he should have acted that way...but since he was conscripted he must have been a citizen of Germany, period.

I reluctantly have given him as an example of ethnic Germans who were Polish citizens but have chosen German citizenship and sided with Germany during the WWII, to let you know that I do know what I'm talking about.

Prime example of Volkliste I, totally correctly eligible for conscription into the Wehrmacht!
Even eligible for voluntary service in the Waffen-SS!

So what is the problem?
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
27 Nov 2009 /  #86
citizen of Germany

yes but you don't understand that majority of population which lived on the territories incorporated into Germany after 1939 were granted German citizenship regardless they were Poles or Germans, did they wanted it or not!

Do you copy now? or your helmet gets in the way?

Bratwurst Boy
So what is the problem?
no problem, I know that some people sided with Germany during the war but there were many who was forced into German army by circumstances, and wouldn't do so given a chance.

Do you have problem with it?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
27 Nov 2009 /  #87
yes but you don't understand that majority of population which lived on the territories incorporated into Germany after 1939 were granted German citizenship regardless they were Poles or Germans,

I think we now have the misundestanding...
That is just wrong!

There were no granted citizenships, there were the Volkslisten...
Hitler and Himmler had their racial visions and all those "subhumans" fantasies...they for
sure wouldn't want to get theirselves masses of them into their new Reich.

no problem, I know that some people sided with Germany during the war but there were many who was forced into German army by circumstances, and wouldn't do so given a chance.

Of course, but if his paper said "German" then off he did go...
IronsE11 2 | 442  
27 Nov 2009 /  #88
Ozi Dan

Been away from the forum for a while, but not surprised to see this clown embarrassing himself again.

I'll pass on your message of thanks to my late grandfather who fought with the Poles at Monte Cassino.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
27 Nov 2009 /  #89
there were the Volkslisten.

yes but people who have signed it wasn't Germans very often but Poles forced by circumstances, then there was conscription, and Poles in German army - thats the fact BB, why don't you face it?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,712  
27 Nov 2009 /  #90
yes but people who have signed it wasn't Germans very often but Poles forced by circumstances,

...as there was "Poles" who afterwards said they were forced by the Germans to not get killed by the victors and suffer the same fate as Germans, why don't you face THAT one?

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