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The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2


scrappleton - | 829  
28 Nov 2009 /  #121
Let's just face it, Scrappy, the UK and US are pathetic warmongers.

Well, we're both pretty much broke and nothing stops the warmongering like no money. Obama is being told by his own party he will have to raise some tax to pay for 40,000 addlt troops he wants put into Afghan. A surge worked in Iraq for the most part, this might actually be effective. Here again, if I was G. Britain, I'd just leave now. You'll at least save face with the EU.

However, the taliban aren't an army per se.. all this talk about you got defeated and humiliated, blah blah.. Excuse me? These dizzy bastards pop in an out of caves like a gopher does his hole. They look the same as the rest of the population. <<shrugs>> what do you expect? They're still stuck in the 14th century mentally. How would one even measure success there?

Yes lot's of French civilian casualties.. however Eastern front had around 13 million civilians killed. But yeah, sure the US will pay for those sins eventually, it all comes around eventually. That's why so many are preaching isolationism now.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Nov 2009 /  #122
Not gonna happen. The latest from the Moron Report is that we are in til 2025. Go figure, what's with that?

I agree, they have the better positions and any US Marine will tell you the same. However, we have the Apaches to smoke 'em out. We have the numbers as there's a 42-country alliance there, America being but one of them.

ah well, as long as you can be a new-age American and not diss stuff like this. For me, the best voice in rap (Nate Dogg) and one of the best writers (Obie Trice). Some light-hearted stuff.

As for the Poles getting support, language was always going to be a barrier. English didn't have the same stock back then and my grandad said he couldn't converse with them at all. Breakdown in communication :(
scrappleton - | 829  
28 Nov 2009 /  #123
For me, the best voice in rap (Nate Dogg)

.. there's a true reason to hate the US. I feel like taking a screwdriver to my ear when I hear rap.

Not gonna happen. The latest from the Moron Report is that we are in til 2025.

Nahh.. GB's there another 3 years tops. It's too expensive and waste for the rest of NATO. Nobody would fault you if you wanted out. Remember, this isn't a clear cut winnable war with concessions etc... it's more about containment and basically disrupting cells.. it's not perfect, but it's better than sitting around. That's the way the US sees it.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Nov 2009 /  #124
The War on Terror was designed to be a never-ending one but, like the hunt for OBL, it will peter out when it suits the politicians. Are they really telling us that are calling it a day after 3 years? 8 years of 42 countries fighting frail old men with the help of elite units like the SAS and GROM?

I've seen numerous reports where the marines accept that the Taliban are winning. Exit means an admission of defeat unless the next big sell comes along. How to convince the public that our objectives have been met and that all our investment has meant sth to the cause of peace. The way I see it, it has been one big stirring of the hornets' nest and we see how weak our armies are.

The truth is also that many villagers don't like the presence of foreign soldiers. Containment? You make out like the Taliban are a grave threat to innocent Afghan shepherds and that's not true. Jason Burke wrote a book on Al Qaeda and it being a fraud. It's as clear as day to me. He's much more grounded than Christopher Bollyn btw. I know the Russians had problems with them but Russia is but one country. 42 countries!! Come on, that's a joke!
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
29 Nov 2009 /  #125
...as there was "Poles" who afterwards said they were forced by the Germans to not get killed by the victors and suffer the same fate as Germans, why don't you face THAT one?

do you think that I deny it?
All I'm saying is that many Poles on the territories incorporated into Germany after 1939 signed volk-something not to be kicked out with in two hours like 800,000 their countryman's.

Those Poles were allowed to do it by Polish government for humanitarian reasons.
This situation produced "German" citizens conscripted into German army.
Do you understand now?
Or you are in denial?

I-S (take off your helmet, does it sink in, now?)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #126
All I'm saying is that many Poles on the territories incorporated into Germany after 1939 signed volk-something not to be kicked out with in two hours like 800,000 their countryman's.

Those Poles were allowed to do it by Polish government for humanitarian reasons.

Heh:)
How do you think the subscribing worked? Some poor sod walked from door to door and begged the owner to make their cross somewhere where they wanted???

Oh Iron...it wasn't that easy and uncomplicated!
You needed abit more to proof your belonging to the "Herrenrasse" in this time!

And I really doubt the graciousness of the polish gov in exile in that regard.

...If the Polish soldier was serving as a non-commisioned officer or higher rank, he was immediately shot for cooperating with the enemy"

Doesn't sound so forgiving!

This situation produced "German" citizens conscripted into German army.

And that I said all along!
No foreigners were allowed into the Wehrmacht...you had to be german citizen! Period.
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #127
...If the Polish soldier was serving as a non-commisioned officer or higher rank, he was immediately shot for cooperating with the enemy"

Doesn't sound so forgiving!

It’s also untrue, the only time that a Polish national serving in Wehrmacht could have been executed were those that committed treason and the penalty for that act was death. The proof was the pay book or if the soldier was serving in SS, if his playbook was issued prior to September 1st of 39 meant he willingly participated in the Invasion of Poland fully and willingly cooperating with enemy. That was the only time they could have been shot for treason for they were guilty and already convicted of treason by military tribunal, and that indeed happened. The rest were given a benefit of doubt and treated as unwilling participants given a choice either join free Polish forces or be taken as POW.

No foreigners were allowed into the Wehrmacht...you had to be german citizen! Period.

Why did you need Deutsche Volksliste than? Let me help you out, to reclassify them as Germans. Yet he was a Polish national prior to 1939. Why was there a need to steel Polish children to raise them as Germans if only Germans could be Germans? Why there were Russian SS units or Ukrainian or Baltic states or Scandinavian? Myth all myth.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #128
Why did you need Deutsche Volksliste than?

Because during the millennia Germans scattered over all of Europe but during the development of the nationstates and especially after the Treaty of Versailles millions of ethnic Germans were now put into foreign countries, often against their will.

(Imagine the partitioned Poles, they didn't just vanish or lost their ethnical identification just because they now lived officially in Prussia, Austria or Russia, didn't they?)

To gather them and to classify them the Volksliste was thought up with being Group I the "best" and being IV the "worst" if you want..categorizing people of pure german ancestry on both sides who spoke German etc to mixed breed who were for example already polonized and spoke no longer german or felt any affinity to Germany at all.

They are were used to prop up the army and should help to build the new german Reich in the occupied countries.

Why there were Russian SS

A russian SS unit? You are not talking about the Vlasov army, don't you?

the only time that a Polish national serving in Wehrmacht could have

There were no polish nationals serving in the Wehrmacht!

(Should I make a record out of this?)
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #129
Point is that it's not all Black and White like you think. People found themselves in a difficult situation even if he might have German Blood, it's not automatic that he would volunteer his services for the Nazis or believed in the Ideology.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #130
Point is that it's not all Black and White like you think

It's Black and White in this regard that ONLY german citizens were allowed to serve in the Wehrmacht, not polish nationals.

So "Poles" who served in the german forces and later said they were forced to by the Germans were forced in the same way as they were "forced" to subscribe voluntarily the Volkliste I.

Everything else is grey...

People found themselves in a difficult situation even if he might have German Blood,

Fully agree!
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #131
It's Black and White in this regard that ONLY german citizens were allowed to serve in the Wehrmacht, not polish nationals.

You still believe that myth?

So "Poles" who served in the german forces and later say they were forced to by the Germans are forced in the same way as they were "forced" to subscribe voluntarily the Volkliste I.

Conscript is not volunteer is it so difficult to comprehand?

Everything else is grey...

Fully agree
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #132
You still believe that myth?

Just a question...could a german had come over and become a member of the polish forces?
No? Because he was not a polish citizen? Thought so....

And the same was it with the Wehrmacht...;) No myth.
You had to have the right nationality in you papers....I really wonder why that common and logical custom is so hard to grasp!

Conscript is not volunteer is it so difficult to comprehand?

To be conscripted you had to be a german citizen, male, healthy and of the right age.

For Germans outside of the Reich territory subscribing to the Volkliste I was voluntarily.
If they did it they became eligible for conscription!

(It really seems too difficult to comprehend)
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #133
Just a question...could a german had come over and become a member of the polish forces?
No? Because he was not a polish citizen? Thought so....

I’ll ask you the same thing. How many German citizens fought on the Polish side for Polish independence prior to 1918 or Austrian or Russian. There was no such thing as Polish citizen yet the Army was there.

And the same was it with the Wehrmacht...;) No myth.

Same with Wehrmacht. No myth. They were Polish citizens reclassified as Germans period because there might have been some German blood. I wonder did the Nazis really had a blood test that proved definitely someone is German?

To be conscripted you had to be a german citizen

Yes; once Reclassified.

For Germans outside of the Reich territory subscribing to the Volkliste I was voluntarily.

So you don’t get shot for treason or be evicted from his land, home etc, he had signed the damn papers. I wonder how voluntary is that? And when they came to draft his a$$?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #134
I'll ask you the same thing. How many German citizens fought on the Polish side for Polish independence prior to 1918 or Austrian or Russian. There was no such thing as Polish citizen yet the Army was there.

Can we at least try to stay in the time frame...please? There was a cool polish army in Poland in '39, weren't there?

Could I as a german citizen had come over to serve there??? ;)

They were Polish citizens reclassified as Germans period because there might have been some German blood. I wonder did the Nazis really had a blood test that proved definitely someone is German?

Well, no blood test but to get your "first class" you had to bring the "Ariernachweis"
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariernachweis#.E2.80.9EKleiner_Ariernachweis.E2.80.9C
(makes now for an excellent starting point for any genealogical research!)

Erm...here is the english link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariernachweis

The requirements for Aryan descent differ among the different laws that were issued in Nazi times - the Reichserbhofgesetz (farmer land heritage law) notably required 100% for the lineage back to 1800 just as higher positions in the SS demanded a "pure" Aryan lineage back to 1750.

So you don't get shot for treason or be evicted from his land, home etc, he had signed the damn papers. I wonder how voluntary is that? And when they came to draft his a$$?

There might have been accidents but it wasn't policy to force people at gun point to subscribe to Volksliste I. It would not have been really helpful to gather the "Herrenrasse"....and you had to bring some proof anyhow.
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #135
Could I as a german citizen had come over to serve there??? ;)

Sure you can, you look like a warrior to me even have a helmet to prove it, all you had to do is take a Polish citizenship, many did. and that my German friend would have been voluntary. :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #136
Sure you can, you look like a warrior to me even have a helmet to prove it, all you had to do is take a Polish citizenship, many did.

The moment the Poles have cooler helmets than mine I'm all yours!
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #137
Bratwurst Boy
I'll look for one, how about my grand dads saber? Will that do.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #138
A sabre! Coooooooooooool...but better not, your grandfather might like to keep it in the family, but thanks! :)
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #139
Coooooooooooool... In theory we're on the same side now. I just had to take a look at that saber one more time, he's sleeping. Someday it will be mine. It's a bit rusty and I don't feel like polishing it now, so let's just leave it at that before we start WWIII.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
29 Nov 2009 /  #140
Someday it will be mine.

*looks envious*

What a proud heritage to inherit, a real live used sabre! :)

Have to go now, till next time! :)
Piorun - | 658  
29 Nov 2009 /  #141
Thanks, your hamlet is not so shabby either.
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
30 Nov 2009 /  #142
I really doubt the graciousness of the polish gov in exile in that regard.

thats the fact BB, people on the territories incorporated into III Reich after 1939 if given a choice signing Volkliste were given green light to do so by Polish government for humanitarian reason.

Later it produced phenomena of "German" citizen conscripted into German army and I'm not talking about those German citizens before 1939 but ethnically Polish.

Do you copy now?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
30 Nov 2009 /  #143
Do you copy now?

Well, I just find it hard to think where ethnical Poles got their Ariernachweis from and how and why they decided to subscribe to the Volksliste I ? They never got in the circle as being possible Germans in the first placed, didn't they?

Their might be such cases but it's all abit murky (or do I mean "muddy"?), don't you think?

And why did the polish soldiers who came about such "murkies" not adhere to the humanitarian polish gov and outright killed them as traitors?

I think I still don't "copy"... :(
Amathyst 19 | 2,702  
30 Nov 2009 /  #144
To be conscripted you had to be a german citizen, male, healthy and of the right age.

That doesnt explain the story my friend told me about his grand father...he was conscripted in to the German army - he (my friends grand father) was Polish - Im sure his was not a isolated case.

Anyway this thread was about some Ausi saying that the Brits werent so bad after all! Not a thread about Germans (you're getting as bad as the Dutch who seem to invade every thread)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
30 Nov 2009 /  #145
That doesnt explain the story my friend told me about his grand father...he was conscripted in to the German army - he (my friends grand father) was Polish

Well...as the facts are you should ask your friend why and how their polish grand father became a german citizen. Only GERMAN CITIZENS were conscripted into the Wehrmacht..you know..as it stands in the papers...as nationality...he had to have there "German". *shrugs*

It might be now more interesting how it came to THAT!

(you're getting as bad as the Dutch who seem to invade every thread)

I'm only answering....I have an inbuild "german-radar"....:)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
30 Nov 2009 /  #146
Well, I just find it hard to think where ethnical Poles got their Ariernachweis

**** BB everything whats real is murky, we haven't been talking about Poles living in Germany and having German citizenship - thats quite murky area!

As for ethical Poles? I don't know how, look for it yourself in German sources,
One reason comes to mind - Poles on the territories incorporated into Germany in 1939 before 1918 were German citizens, and before them their parents and grandparents, sometimes for many generation, maybe it had something to do with it and a fact that Germans governors were allowed to adjust a bit general policy on the territories govern by them?

latency of Polish government it the fact and some commentary about attitude of Polish soldiers towards Poles in German uniform weren't so one sided and simple as some American seems to believe, as a example: my grandpa, an officer in Army "Poznan" which kicked some German asses,taken as a POW by Germans in 1939, was treated by Germans front line troops very good, corporal said to him Soldad ist ein Soldad - or something like that.

And as you well know general attitude towards Poles, soldiers or not wasn't that nice!
So, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the way Poles were treating Poles in German uniforms based on one testimony even if that guy believed it.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
30 Nov 2009 /  #147
****

Was that something important??? ;)
Ironside 51 | 11,510  
30 Nov 2009 /  #148
No, but it wasn't invective as you assumed :P

I-S (anything else?)
Marek11111 9 | 816  
30 Nov 2009 /  #149
as west of Poland was incorporated into Germany some Poles ware serving in German army, Germans had to get more able body to replace the war losses but there ware Jews soldiers in Hitler army even in the SS and Yitzak Shamir, (Israeli Prime Minister). Former deputy leader of the NMO, (Israeli Freedom Movement) that offered to join the war on the Nazi side.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,341  
30 Nov 2009 /  #150
some Poles ware serving in German army

*bangs head repeatedly against PF wall*

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