Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII - chances of Poland being saved

...all opportunists. Had Germany won all would have fighted for some crumbs from the table.
But as the war was lost they couldn't pose themselves as heroic resisters quick enough..

Oh gee !
Are you reliving in the past "glory" I got news for you there was nothing glorious in that war and specially nothing glorious about German part of the story.

As for your Allies - same old story - stop whining man !

Crap!
I say it like it was...especially as some of them even today indulge in finger pointing!

You mean when Berlusconi compared Shroder to a nazi concentration guard six years ago;-]?
german.about.com/b/2003/07/04/berlusconi-and-the-germans.htm

I don't mind calling Shroder names or so but that was a huge hipocrisy :-]

I don't mind neither but look who's talking...Trittbrettfahrer!

And Quisling did never excist! Wohooo!
There were "huge" resistence in Norway and no puppet state Bwuhaha!

Wikipedia needs to refresh their information...


I have seen you mentioning the Wehrmacht to be innocent! The whole army wasn't ment to do such cruelties but some just did it! Tho if their were punished for doing it (I highly doubt it unless you prove it to me) I will change my mind.

I may understand your thinking of beeing proud of them but, they who did it? (I mean not only Nazis) you proud of them or only the "good" Germans?

No...I didn't!


Agreed!


Often they were...the penal unit of the Wehrmacht had the number 999 and several thousand criminals innit. Then there were the probation units...(Infanteriebataillone z.b.V.500, 540, 550, 560, 561, 609. SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500, SS-Sturm-Btl 500..)

Yes but where they excecuted or punished for mass murder or something like that? Or for disobidience?

BB I remember you wrote it in another thread, may happen it was months ago. Clearly saying that SS were the bad guys but Wehrmacht was innocent! (Maybe you meant as their goals or something?)

Disobedience was surely a crime, also was stealing or raping...people got trialed and either executed or send into such a probation unit.
For "mass murder"...depends on who did the definition. Would you call the crew of a bomber who just killed civilians through throwing bombs on them "mass murderer"? Which army would punish them?


I surely didn't say that!:)
Atrocities happened on all fronts, with all units.
After the war it was easier to blame a relatively small organization like the Waffen-SS for every wart, so they were declared a criminal organization...but there had been brave and blameless people in all units and cowardly arseholes too...no need to put a label on them!

I think what I have seen BB say (and correct me Bratski if I am wrong) but there were soldiers in the Wehrmacht who were drafted whether they wanted to be there or not.

In contrast, the SS was a special group, with sworn allegiance to Himmler.

Richtig?


Absolutely...with Allies and Axis alike!

I didn't said that Shopski...and I don't remember anything of that kind..Mr. Grunwald must have gotten something wrong!

You didn't ever say (not necessarily on this thread but at other times) that the Wehrmacht had germans in it that were just "doing a job" without having personal belief in or allegiance to Hitler?

I would call it an mass murder if you think Stukas sending bombs on colums of civilians, but bombing towns, then it's more like destroying the town is main objective, not the people (civilians) so the pilots may not think that their mass murderers, some get's unlucky blown up. But atomic bomb on a city or soldiers shooting people in columns infront of them for no special reason, well that's mass murder?

It's really important to know what peoples intensions are, so that you can understand it/change it

Another point to consider...
I just learned that how "war crimes" were considered according to what countries in the war had signed off on various portions of the Geneva convention. I had no idea that there was a choice for a country to accept or decline subscription to certain parts of the GC! (Not that Stalin would have cared either way, in his case)

Really? It does make sense

Yeah, can you believe that?
Can you imagine the mess it must have been, when trying to sort things out for punishment of war crimes?

Miracle that anyone was judged in the Nüremberg process!

Mr. G, take a look at some of these:

Japanese Ignored Rules in POW camps
historyonthenet.com/WW2/pow_camps_japan.htm

Russia didn't sign
historyonthenet.com/WW2/geneva_convention.htm

New Rules added in 1949 after conduct of Germany and Japan in WWII
historyonthenet.com/WW2/geneva_convention.htm

Are you some kind of idiot?Greece which fought against both Italy and Germany and defeated Italy and caused 45000 italian casualties and 16000 german casualties was a puppet state?Did Greece send any soldier to Wehrmacht or to SS?

A country which suffered half a million casualties in WW2 among a population of 8 million?

Axis consisted of Germany,Italy and Japan and axis' allies were Hungary,Croatia,Finland,Latvia,Esthonia,Romania and Bulgaria.These countries participated militarily in axis operations.

Neutral states were Spain,Switzerland,Sweden,Turkey(till 1945) meaning they did not support the one side or the other.

2 first ones, kinda heard about but third!?
Nothing written about after 1943!
Well atleast if was added new rules, im not surprised

Some just can't follow the book :/

Look at the terrorists today......they laugh at those rules.

And the US under Bush gained a very crappy record! :(

there was still some VERY few(?) who did colaborae, heck there were even some in Poland but thoose few in Greece said oficially we support you, there was a minor thingie. But representing correctly the whole population, that's why puppet state :)

Same with Norway, not that many were pro-Germans but not many were against them eiehter. Very many were just watchers. Each nations has it's shares of guilt in anything but it is UP TO YOU! To descide if you look upon them as bad or good, I really pitty Harry he thinks of every nation as guilty in something and loves to prove it (Not that I blaim him really, many nutcases here with narrow minded thinking)

its looked as you were complaining, as for finger pointing is nothing ....some are pointing finger at Poland - and that is ....really mean !

I don't know why Greece was listed under Wikipedia's "joint German-Italian puppet states".
Perhaps someone should correct Wikipedia's link.

As to what kind of "idiot" I am, well, there have been several descriptions but no one has yet been able to put a label on any of them. One of the forerunners is, savant-idiot.

Yes,there was SS division Viking consisting of norwegian and swedish soldiers which was one of the best SS units and fought till the end in the battle of Berlin protecting the Reichstag.Quinsling is known.

Swedish governement let the Germans pass ammunition in great quantities to Finland and sweidsh companies provided Wehrmacht with lots of steel and other tank parts,so Sweden became rich during WW2.

Even US companies like General Motors kept factories in Germany producing weapons for Wehrmacht.These factories were bombed by USAF and General Motors claimed reparations.

The nations which fought against axis most phanatically were the Poles,the Russians and the Serbs.The Serbs caused the death of over 200000 Germans and Germans still remember that.

how true


now you'll receive 100 pts. for your pro slavic comment from Mr.Crow the western World hater

There are some big winners in wars usually the ones who make business in wars.


Sorry,I did not notice the catalogue was quoted from wikipedia,I thought you wrote it.In my opinion this catalogue is absurd,it shows nothing.

well if you put it this way I agree but it's not what nunczka and I meant

Well...it needed only a few men to take their capital, Belgrade.
The whole Yugoslavia campaign cost the Germans initially only 151 KIA and 407 WIA.
The Serbs like to think Germans are thinking continously about them...that is Crowies delusion, nothing else!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_casualties_of_World_War_II#Yugoslavia_1941

50000+ German soldiers were killed by yugoslav partisans.Moreover 250000 croatian soldiers who were allies of axis were killed by yugoslav partisans.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_People's_Liberation_War