Poland and Ukraine

You should do the same BB there is place in Berlin for bronze statue of Her Hitler or whomever from the long list of the Fallen Heroes of the III Reich .


Well, no more then French and British, don't you think that there should be distinctions between wrongdoings in the times of war and totally bad ideology and means to achieve it?

Nathan should have said that matter should be investigated by joined Polish-Ukrainian comity and promise that guilty will be punish or they memory.
And then in the light of previous massacres the comity could investigate also Ukrainian grievances ( from XX century).
BB Nathan is not honest with his declarations, basically he is saying that:

Well, those massacres were not good but Poles because of they deeds(imagined or real) deserved it and at lets not talk about as Poland should support Ukraine just because.. and anyway Poles killed Ukrainians too, so lets it be nulled but I will take all the toys.Thats fair - You should be fair Ironside you oaf and loser.

What can I say ?
Пішов на хуй?

Anyway I'm surprised BB - et tu Brute ?!

Absolutely. :)


This is the only thing I understood from what you said, Ironside :)


I told you, Ironside, you are a blinded dude, who sees only one side and the other side is treated by you like nothing. I haven't encountered more arrogance and short-sightedness in one sentence before and you call it "Polish-Ukrainian comity". Why? Call it "Polish comity" - it will be more exact to what you said.

I hope sometime a comity will be created that won't be investigating "then" and "in light of" as you propose ;)

lame

Reading this thread I'm just mightily reminded about the hate and venom spitting Poles since the first plans were made public to remember the millions forcefully expelled.

If we would had waited for any admission or acceptance or even cooperation it would still be unborn.

Is there anything Poles would ever admit besides being genetically brave and good and upstanding and having the sun shining out of their arses???
I never read such a thing...

No surprises there ... so we understand each other ... good.


not at all - logical !


And exactly what do you want to remember?


Admission of what?


Did I said that?


Learn polish and you will have plenty material for your lectures.

Only when you believe that Hitler is widely seen as a hero...do you ?


Any wrong doings


The millions expelled and killed during the forced marches! (12 millions of them being Germans)
Don't tell me you never heard of the being build center against expellations and the whole bruhaha with Poland?


...not with these words :)


So there is self criticism in Poland???

No you don't I'm not going to believe that even for a second if you mean it you would have said that at the beginning.

Now, you want only to project you "goody" image!


Don't you have such a conception in Germany ?


Really? Well, just wait a sec cause some light from behind is blinding me!:))


I heard but I'm asking what exactly do you want to remember?


And who is responsible?


There plenty of other to chose from :
Rommel, Von Stauffenberg etc


But of curse! Can you be more specific ?

ft.com/cms/s/0/a9baf91e-43bf-11de-a9be-00144feabdc0,s01=1.html?nclick_check=1

No freedom of speech on Polish Forum!!! Materials PF doesn't like, no matter if they are facts and moreover, well-quoted, are being deleted. Shame!

As always - avoidance, avoidance, avoidance of answering questions and shooting short sentences which often miss meaning.

Wow and they even deleted my links to the sites where I gathered so much material on Ukrainian-Polish history. How low is that? It was direct answer to Porzeczka and her thing is left while mine was deleted. Any freedom of speech here, Polish Forum?

Since when you are answering questions Nathan?
If you had come froward and admitted ethnic cleansing without looking for excuses we would have different discussions from the beginning.
I have notice that you did not answer my question or issues I was addressing instead, you were ranting for pages insulting me personally. Furthermore You often keep going on and is difficult to understand what you are after.

Last time you have taken out of context my say addressed to pawian, easy to pick on ?
Have you answered to any issue I write about in #210? No!
avoidance Nathan?
I condemned any wrongdoings during 1920-1939 on the part of polish government and I wont repeat myself, as you're still clinging to the idea that massacres in Wolyn wasn't fault of the Ukrainians or/and they had been justified in their deeds by the policy of polish government.

Also you believe that any action taken by Poles in the way of retaliations, erases in a sense Ukrainian guilt and responsibility - and I strongly disagree!

I know that similar view are held in what is now called wester Ukraine, in the center or east Ukrainians have different opinions at the issue.

As for BB I'm asking questions to know exactly what he means before I'll answer.
BB bulged into our discussion and immediately started slandering off Poles and taking sides as if he knew anything about the subject.
And then puff ! he is gone!His helmet must be uncomfortable.

So, as long as you cling to your very narrow views what is to be discussed? You tell me, but pls no more rants and lectures about poor moi !

You did? Hmm, where?


Are all Ukrainians to blame? The highest number of UPA was about 30.000 soldiers.


You see, you have noticed it by yourself.


You mix details. The number 12 million doesn`t refer to Germans from Poland only, but from all Eastern territories. Next, from 12 million we must extract a few millions of Germans who fled their areas during the war, on German military authorities` orders, to avoid contact with the Red Army. It was then when they marched in harsh winter conditions and hundred thousands died on the road, in bombed Drezno or on sunk ships. You don`t want to blame Poles for that?

The real expulsion took place after the war, comprised about 3 million Germans from the Polish territory and they were transported by trains under Polish authorities` control.


Yes. Can`t you see it in this thread?

Besides, Poles were already self-critical when Nazi criminals were still prosecuted in the world.

Do you know that in 1966 Polish bishops issued an appeal to Germans ones: We forgive and beg for forgiveness???

It was one of the first attempts at reconciliation after the tragedies of the Second World War, in which Germany invaded Poland; Poland and Germany lost millions of people, while millions more, both Poles and Germans, had to flee from their homes or were forcibly resettled.


Nice view. Thank you.


Who talks about protectorate? Lending a hand here and there and close partnership isn`t protectorate.

In my discussion with Nathan but where look up yourself as I have no time and no need to prove anything to you.


Don't be daft ...
youtube.com/watch?v=Vr2pwqy831E

Only when Poland agrees to pay for Ukraine and to support Georgia militarily should Saakashvili becoming bored again!

...because sure as hell the other EU countries wont...

Ukraine is not ready for EU right now and this is obvious. When it will be ready, I wish it stays out of it. Simple economical and political cooperation will do it, BB. I am grateful for Polish support and I think that if it will be important and inevitable to join some union, EU is, of course, the best one. Till then a lot has to be done and I wouldn't like Ukraine to come into it as a poor country asking for help. If it comes in, it should be economically strong and pose its demands on equal partnership which EU currently is not. Certain countries dictate others what to do. But this time is far into the future...

Regarding Gergia, BB, don't be a smart ass. Georgia is an independant country which deserves to be free as anyone else. Your country started two WORLD WARS just because of greed and reparations (the latter are understandable). Georgia doesn't like likewise to be poked at, each time into its territory by Russia which has nothing in mind but to goble up all the world and turn it in into a poor sh*t like was Soviet Union or Russian empire before that. You rip your butt defending Germany in similar cause, so at least have some consistency in respect to Georgia.

Words and real plans are two different issues.

Ukriane is corrupted bankrupt and Poland is not going to lend them money.

That is why they are going to slowly driff in to Russians hands as long as Russia is only one country which lends them something ...

It is reality they are born loosers.

Don't sell me Saakashvili as freedom fighter.
Even his own countrymen can't stand him anylonger.
cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/02/georgia.protest/index.html
He thought he could use the US and the NATO in his territorial powergames with South Ossetia...well..he gambled and he lost.
Bordering Russia and instable, no chance to become member of the NATO.

For the EU...welll...we didn't digest the last east expansion yet, so it will take time to get ready to admit another country which will cost the members billions to bring it up to standard ...pragmatical reasons, don't take it personally!

BB, nobody wants NATO's backup. It won't move a finger, anyway. The only question stands whether Europe will keep on sucking on Russia's arse or finally will make itself less dependant from it and more pro-active in defending liberties (not militarily) of nations striving to gain freedom. It is a pure business for Europe: if you let disappear countries like Georgia (they will be fighting till they die, no doubt), devoured into a big mass of military nothingness as is Russia, it will be at your borders sooner or later and neither borders, not dialogue will help you then. You don't have to trust me, but read history and news, and pick up something better than CNN (it's not news).

this was really funny :D

Wow Ironside, all the history books on my bookshelf just caught on fire because of you. Good job.

Anyway, stop saying that Ukrainians and Polish people are the same gene-wise. It's like saying Japan and China are the same, Italy and Greece, India and Thailand. I ahve studied my European geneology, they might be slavic, but the differences exist greatly.

Some are, some aren't ! Ukraine is not homogeneous country - and on the Ukrainian gen pool Poles made great impact!
and vice versa but on smaller scale....

George, don't take the last hope of Ironside to find his genes in Ukrainian genome. It was the last straw in his self-respect. Now, you never know, he might jump out of the window in total despair. ;)

Whats Ukrainian? ))))))
There is connection but no so great based on that I could claim to have Scottish genes as well! And being 1/4 Italian!
So what?
I'm Polish!
And you Nathan? You lie about living in the Ukraine? Canada?
Who are you really ?Nat?)))))000

So your a Scottish, Italian, Ukrainian Pole?

Wow, just Greek and Polish here mate. Props ^_^

Not really>
Ukrainian because Nathan claimed that Ukrainians = Rusyns or other way around !
Scottish, well part of Family were originally Scottish some 300 years ago )))))))))
Well, it left only Italian part)))))
Sorry to disappoint you !

I am half Ukrainian, half Edenial. My ancestors were citizens of Eden some 5,000 years ago. Wow, it actually makes Ironside my relative, damn...

problem Nathan?
You don't know who your great grandparents were? Maybe Poles? Terrible?
#but I'm not surprised, you know nothing - Nathan king of BS!

Something about Poles and how good your family were in murdering small children ?
Come on get it off your chest!


Can you read? Nat, I'm not claiming to be Scottish or Ukrainian, moron.
Can say anything of value except fascist's BS Nat?

Ironside, I was just laughing at you claiming 300 years old roots in Scotland. I haven't had idea one can dig that deep unless one's ancestor was a big shot in history. Oh, well, maybe, you had one. I don't argue. It's good to know your roots.

You called me moron for my claim that Adam and Eve were my ancestors, how rude of you, sorry it is nice of you since rudeness is bred with milk where you are from.

OK I'm rude but only on the Internet and sometimes.
You are fox Nat.
And I find your laugh rude! Very rude after you ignored my questions!
Yet, again you show your true colors - fascism...

I don't ignore, I may missed them or found them self-explanatory.

Nathan if you read this ignore them, i am very late to this fight and plan not to return. For those Poles who say halychina is Poland, well the only Polish thing of it was cities like lvov and ternopil who poland colonized and there were just as many jews and germans as ethnic poles. Western Ukraine has been part of the rest of Ukraine (both Soviet Ukraine and free Ukraine) longer than the Polish interwar period. Before then we were part of the Hapsburg Empire and they treated us with respect, not as savages to be made into polish clones subservient to some intellectual asses in lvov like 1919-1939 poland did.

this thread has disgusted me, implying Ukrainians are nazis is such ******** when we suffered just as much as poland did under them, gave millions of lives to fight nazis (yes millions of ukrainians serve in red army just like poles, actually more so than poles), and the fact nazis murdered and do genocide against both ukrainian jews and ethnic ukrainians and exported us as slave laborers back to germany. and dont forget both RUSSIA and BELARUS had SS divisions. Are they nazis too? poland would of had ss divisions too if hitler didnt hate poles so much. and poles under soviet occupation were celebrating when the germans began their barbarossa operation

my mother is hungarian and my father polish by blood (but wasnt born in poland dosent speak polish language or practice religion) but i speak ukrainian go to greek-catholic church and culture wise i consider myself ukrainian, and reading this bs makes me even prouder for that. i think i might stop mentioning to people that i even have polish blood despite the sacrifices my ancestors did for independent poland, dosent matter since they wouldnt recognize poland today kissing german and english ass all the time subservant to their capitalist masters in brussels who just love cheap polish labor, though they do find the religion and culture to be annoying, not to worry i am sure big brother in brussels is well on its way in fixing that "problem".

to finish up i say screw nato, to russian (though i'll take you guys as allies over nato/eu) ukraine is free now and never again will we let poland, russia or anyone else control us, the spirit of mazepa lives on. am i nationalist? well, liberal nationalist because i dont think we are superior to other cultures and all nations are equal but i am very proud of ukraine and hope for our future free from the self proclaimed "benefactors" that border us. slava ukraini!