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Serbian contribution to Poland's independance after WWI


Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #31
The only coalition in EU working legally is the german-french axis.

There you go, the precedence exists.
southern 75 | 7,096  
24 Oct 2009 /  #32
Yes,but they are the main financial contributors,the UK being a special case with special treatment.You cannot form an alliance against your lenders.
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #33
You cannot form an alliance against your borrowers.

We are talking about hypothetical future events, not some sort of alliance against the policies of EU. All I’m saying is that with the way things are at the moment Slavic states will have to form that coalition to protect their own interests, and it’s the policies of the EU itself that is unconsciously bringing possibility of such reality. In my opinion this scenario will come to pass sooner than most of us realize.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #34
You think Germans will allow you to build any form of coalition?Dream on.The only coalition in EU working legally is the german-french axis.

How do you think the EU works?
Sending their Gestapo to terrorize your leaders???

What is hindering your officials to build up sympathies and friendship between each other for mutual assistance?
As it was for example honestly liking and personal friendship as between Schröder and Putin or pragmatic common interests as between Kohl and Mitterrand?

Why do you blame always the big bad Germans when reality doesn't keep up with your far fetched dreams?
That is not only cowardly but also totally wrong, that mindset will get you NOWHERE!

All I’m saying is that with the way things are at the moment Slavic states will have to form that coalition to protect their own interests

Such crap!
The EU did more for slavic interests than any other ever before...
First Poles got the possibility to swarm the EU countries in search for work. Now (for many years) Poland get's so much support and investments from fellow EU-members that soon people will come to Poland in search for work.

Where would Poland and the other EU-newbies be today without the EU.

If you don't like it why don't you leave! I so doubt you can do it alone better...
southern 75 | 7,096  
24 Oct 2009 /  #35
What is hindering your officials to build up sympathies and friendship between each other for mutual assistance?

You know that Poles cannot dance with Russians the way the Germans do even if they want to.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #36
You keep saying that but you don't even try!
OP Crow 139 | 8,280  
24 Oct 2009 /  #37
Yes,but they are the main financial contributors,the UK being a special case with special treatment.You cannot form an alliance against your borrowers.

southern. But, something interesting already happening

i myself don`t believe in Slavic unity inside of EU, at least not on the long run. But on the short run i do believe in some sort of Slavic authonomy in EU. Later, for sure, Slavs would recognoze new opportunities and grabbed the chance for independance. They would have all reasons to escape from EU

i had expiriance and intersting talks with bussines people from Slavic world, from Slovakia, Czech Rep. Poland, Bulgaria. Bussines people from Slavic countries realy tend to develop closer contacts with bussnis people from Slavic world. It is realty because we are all aware of competition. We are aware that we have bater chances to strenghten our bussines in Slavic world. Slavic bussines is vulnerable on presure from competition that coming from so called west. To say, our economies are still less competitive. That`s the primary reson that force us to choose to cooperate with other Slavs, on the first place and if it is just possible. Then, when you establish contacts (stryctly enforced by the economic laws), you learn after a while (in talks and personal contacts) that bussines people fom Slavic countries have much more in common. Common pollitical ideas, common enemies thru history.

My personal achievement on the field of mutual Slavic cooperation was to halp in establishing contasts between two Slovakian companies that operates in Serbia. i was aware of production/trade program of both companies and i conneceted them. Then, when they start to work, i connected them with one interesting Slovenian bussines. They now work and prosper. That was my personal contribution. Those are things that makes me happy, among else.
southern 75 | 7,096  
24 Oct 2009 /  #38
You keep saying that but you don't even try!

I told them to try.Not be afraid of the bear.
In my opinion there exists some alliance against the new euro constitution among some countries.There is also some alliance against turkish membership and some minor alliances regarding financial themes.

I think Poles are upset because EU ignores them and decides excluding Ukraine from EU etc while Poles think they should have a word for these issues.

I remember a slovak businessman who had huge success in Russia.He said his main secret was that he could understand Russians much better than Westerners did.For example he said during an interview in a magazine a Russian will never sign an agreement unless you drink at least a bottle of vodka with him,sth steriled western managers do not grasp.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #39
Maybe the OLD EU-members should ally themselves against the Newbies?
After all it was them who paid the price and suffered greatly for that:

eu.gallup.com/poll/118462/eurobarometer.aspx

...May 18, 2009: Views on EU enlargement

Flash Eurobarometer 257 - This survey assessed citizens' views on the impact of the integration of 10 Central and East European countries (CEE) on the 27 member states. The most widely accepted benefit is the freedom to move and travel (90% of citizens agreed).

Over half of the EU respondents, however, consider that enlargement has made the enlarged EU more difficult to manage (66%) and contributed to job losses in their country (56%).

WE would have reasons to complain, not you!

There is also some alliance against turkish membership and some minor alliances regarding financial themes.

Hmm....Are you calling the majority rule in a democracy an "alliance"?
Because it seems to be a bad thing in your eyes!

I think Poles are upset because EU ignores them and decides excluding Ukraine from EU etc while Poles think they should have a word for these issues.

When, where and how is Poland being ignored?
And what keeps Poland from building and developing ties with the Ukraine? It might help them when they decide to apply for membership...WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!

You know, the way you try to put EVERYTHING onto the poor guys in Brussels get's ridiculous! Can't you think AND ACT for yourself?

For example he said during an interview in a magazine a Russian will never sign an agreement unless you drink at least a bottle of vodka with him,sth steriled western managers do not grasp.

Another piece of crap!
Russias biggest trading partner is the western EU/Germany...those "sterile" western businessmen must be doing something right, without getting drunk regularly.

Maybe your slovak friend needed the Wodka to convince his russian counterpart? Maybe his product was not THAT good when looked at sober???
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
24 Oct 2009 /  #40
We are talking about hypothetical future events

The only point where such an alliance would be warranted is if EU goes into division between old and new, there's a lingering risk that Western countries will use us to plug their demographic hole and as a dump market but thus far they're not doing that or even hinting at doing that so there's no real need to worry, besides who're you going to ally us with?

and it’s the policies of the EU itself that is unconsciously bringing possibility of such reality.

What policies? We're losing our shipyards because of the incompetence of our own government, EU gave us a fair shot and those cvnts in Warsaw screwed it.

There is a distinct possibility of EU turning malevolent as the West faces a crisis but right now its a fairly benevolent structure that helped us out massively.
OP Crow 139 | 8,280  
24 Oct 2009 /  #41
there's a lingering risk that Western countries will use us to plug their demographic hole

it already started
southern 75 | 7,096  
24 Oct 2009 /  #42
to plug their demographic hole

Not the demographic hole(they use third worldlers for that).The hole in quality manual workers,technicians etc.
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #43
Such crap!

Maybe so, but it’s the view of many that EU is nothing more than a private playground of the Germans. Although you exhort a great deal of pressure to keep the status quo, it’s precisely those policies that will eventually backfire on you. What you fail to realize is that the face of the EU has changed, instead of promoting unity you are seen as a dictator, You see your eventual downfall and diminished influence within EU will not be the result of some big bad Pole not liking you, it’s because of your attitude, “my way or the highway”, exhibited not only by your politicians but also by yourself here on this forum.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #44
Maybe so, but it’s the view of many that EU is nothing more than a private playground of the Germans.....blahblahblah..

Can you get a little bit more precise, would you!

It's hard to argue with such foggy accusations...if you don't have more than that then better keep it with Crowie, he will agree with you.
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #45
foggy accusations...

No need to be offended to many it’s crystal clear, although I agree for the most part with what Socrates has stated earlier that’s not the way it’s perceived by many.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #46
No need to be offended to many it's crystal clear,

Then please clue me in?
Where are your polls and numbers that Germany/Merkel is seen as the bad dictator of the EU?

Where are your stats showing that a country which pays more than any other to help countries like yours and which fighted for you and others to get into the EU in the first place as many of the others didn't wanted you sees the EU as it's own playground?

Sorry Piorun, you need more than only foggy accusations to be seen seriously!

If it is so horrible in the EU why are still countries queuing up left and right to get in? Why are the polls in the member states in their majority positive and grateful to be in?

IF the Germans have such a big say in the EU they seem to do something right, don't they...

The EU stays for peace, rebuilding, reconciliation and prosperity. If that's all "the Germans fault", then so be it!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
24 Oct 2009 /  #47
Not the demographic hole(they use third worldlers for that).The hole in quality manual workers,technicians etc.

Same thing, brain drain is even worse but like i said they're not doing it now and speaking of Slavic alliance, all countries around Poland are either large but pyss poor and unstable like Ukraine or small like Czech republic or Lithuania. There's two countries that we could use for a stronger position, Romania and Hungary but neither of them is Slavic.

Maybe so, but it’s the view of many that EU is nothing more than a private playground of the Germans.

No its not, Germans might want to dominate it but they have to contend with UK and its definitely not private.

precisely those policies that will eventually backfire on you

Which policies precisely?

many it’s crystal clear,

Its not crystal clear to me and i'm an euroskeptical Pole.

that’s not the way it’s perceived by many.

No i stated that its not happening, it might in the future but then we can talk, right now its just not happening.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #48
"...Germans seen as dictator..."

my arse!

euractiv.com/en/opinion/merkel-barroso-best-lead-eu-poll/article-164721

Merkel and Barroso best to lead EU
....
Of those asked, 28% would like to see German Chancellor Angela Merkel taking on such political leadership. Commission President José Manuel Barroso gets the support of 20% of interviewees. French President Nicolas Sarkozy and UK Prime Minister-designate Gordon Brown follow with 15% and 14% respectively....

There is barely one leader that much respected as Merkel is currently!

thaindian.com/newsportal/politics/french-prefer-merkel-over-sarkozy-as-eu-president-poll_100191083.html

French prefer Merkel over Sarkozy as EU president: Poll
...
Paris, May 11 (DPA) The French would prefer German Chancellor Angela Merkel to become the European Union's first official president rather than their own President Nicolas Sarkozy, according to a poll published Monday.

(Problem is she already has another full time job so she isn't even in the running...)
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #49
No i stated that its not happening, it might in the future but then we can talk, right now its just not happening.

I know many of you are a doubting Thomas types and you want polls and statistic, including you BB, well I don’t have any but that does not mean I’m wrong, all you have to do is to have a conversation with an average Joe out there to see what the true perception of the populace is. People do not see the credit extended to the government or the reason for some shipyard being closed. All they see is what effects them, if they have a job or not, if their lives are improving or not. Right or wrong it does not matter and even you can’t deny this reality. People remember only the things that they personally feel wronged by. Most of the EU job market being closed to Poles is just one such issue. It gives the perception that Germany is not really on our side. No matter how much BB would like to take the credit for helping Poland it’s the reluctance of allowing Polish workers to compete on the German or French job market that will be remembered by many.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
24 Oct 2009 /  #50
I know many of you are a doubting Thomas types and you want polls and statistic,

Well yeah facts do help form an opinion you know.

but that does not mean I’m wrong

The problem is there's not even an implication that what you say is true.

to see what the true perception of the populace is

The vast majority of Poles (according to polls) are pro European, thats what the true perception of the populace is at the moment.

It gives the perception that Germany is not really on our side.

Naturally, every country is on its own side which does not mean that Germany is against us, they and by extention Europe gave us money that propelled our re-development over a decade.

I dont really love Germany either but lets not give in to sentiments, there's reality to hang on to.

it’s the reluctance of allowing Polish workers to compete on the German or French job market that will be remembered by many.

Its not the reluctance, its the awareness that we having a superior work ethic and getting less for that would simply win any market, just like in UK where we basically conquered the job market on every possible level, but that doesnt mean they're against us, EU is not ideal and no one claims it is but eventually those markets will open to us.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #51
all you have to do is to have a conversation with an average Joe out there to see what the true perception of the populace is.

Well, sorry if I count on stats and facts more than your biased listening.
I doubt that you have much patience to talk and listen to the majority who actually DOES appreciate the EU with all their faults and blemishes. As it is still overall a good thing and the only guarantee for a further peacfull and successful european development.

When you next time nag about a percieved under representation and the opression of big bad Germany spare a minute to ponder about how your country would do all alone, left to fend for itself...how much of a voice would you have now, without the economically and militarily safety net of the EU!

Just look at Ukraine if you need an example..

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4219054,00.html

Experts call EU expansion historic success

The economic data are convincing. According to figures just released by the German statistical bureau (Destatis), the economic output of the ten new member states has grown drastically since they joined the EU five years ago.

...ignore the reality at your own peril!
I really doubt any misty slavic brotherhood could have done better....

Some more facts about Poland in the EU:

esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=358

The economic impact of EU accession

65 per cent of Poles support Poland's membership in the EU. 73 per cent of Poles are of the opinion that Poland has benefited from EU accession. That is a shift of opinion - in the autumn 2002 Eurobarometer only 48 per cent were declared in favour of EU membership.

But...who cares about facts, right Piorun!

...
The economic migration of Polish citizens to "old" member states has also proved an important factor for economic growth. Estimates of Poles working legally in the European Economic Area - mainly in the United Kingdom, Germany and Ireland - range between 900,000 and 1.1 million.
Access to foreign labour markets has indirectly helped reduce unemployment....

Those mean bad Germans!!!

...
Poland's accession to the EU has also accelerated the modernization of the agricultural sector, spurring the development of rural areas. CAP instruments have become a financial incentive to future investment, changing the countryside and allowing Polish farming to play to its comparative advantage.

The fourth Reich conquers Poland!!! *insert evil laugh*
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #52
The problem is there's not even an implication that what you say is true

So the sentiment on the street is of no importance in your opinion.

The vast majority of Poles (according to polls) are pro European, thats what the true perception of the populace is at the moment.

So am I for the most part, just little skeptical about it.

which does not mean that Germany is against us

I never said it is, but you are looking for perception, one can find it if one looks hard enough for it.

Its not the reluctance, its the awareness that we having a superior work ethic and getting less for that would simply win any market

I couldn’t put it better myself.

Well, sorry if I count on stats and facts more than your biased listening.

Perhaps you should not. In communist times it was always an unanimous decision of the people yet the whispers on the streets reflected different reality, so which one proved to be true eventually?

the majority who actually DOES appreciate the EU with all their faults and blemishes.

I never said the EU should not be appreciated, all I’m saying is that the perception of Germany running the show within EU is there, and as soon as that will be seen as a threat the Slavic coalition will emerge to counterbalance it, is that what really bothers you?

When you next time nag about a percieved under representation and the opression of big bad Germany how your country would do all alone, left to fend for itself...how much of a voice would you have now!

Sometimes you are logical and meticulous in your argument so what happened here that you’re such a child about it?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #53
Sometimes you are logical and meticulous in your argument so what happened here that you’re such a child about it?

That's the way foggy accusations get handled by me...when you want to be taken seriously bring arguments to the discussion!

all I’m saying is that the perception of Germany running the show within EU is there,

Listen, Germany is the biggest, richest, economically most advanced and successfull country...it pays the hugest part of the EU budget.

What do you expect? What do you want????

In communist times it was always an unanimous decision of the people yet the whispers on the streets reflected different reality, so which one proved to be true eventually?

How about looking up and around you? Times have changed!
When Poles still don't dare to speak out openly and lie to all polls and surveys and the media ignores them and still panders to a party line than it's hardly the Germans fault, isn't it.

(And that is not true anyhow)

So the sentiment on the street

The numbers are quite clear it seems...the "sentiment of the street" is quite pro-EU!

I’m saying is that the perception of Germany running the show within EU is there, and as soon as that will be seen as a threat the Slavic coalition will emerge to counterbalance it

Yes, it annoys me!
Because you say it as if it was needed and a good thing....but against WHAT...what for???

Maybe it's because I'm a German but I can't see the logic in that!
Poland is one of the countries who benefitted the most and made also the most of the help and the possibilities the EU provides.
The future looks really bright for Poland!

WHAT do you want to "counter balance"??? Help me out here, clue me in!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
24 Oct 2009 /  #54
So the sentiment on the street is of no importance in your opinion.

The sentiment of the street is completely different, EU is widely accepted.

I never said it is, but you are looking for perception, one can find it if one looks hard enough for it.

Yeah if you look for something hard enough you can find anything that way, it doesnt mean Germany is our enemy, its definitely not our friend but we have common interests and prospects for not only proper but actually good and friendly relations in the future, i just cant see the ulterior motives you suspect them of.

all I’m saying is that the perception of Germany running the show within EU is there

Germany has the most powerfull economy, the largest population and is smack in the middle of Europe, their GDP is six times larger then ours (courtesy of America) and 30% larger then any other European state, you cant expect them not to have a major role in any European organisation they're in.

and as soon as that will be seen as a threat the Slavic coalition will emerge to counterbalance it, is that what really bothers you?

Slavic coalition of whom? Czechs will remain neutral, Ukraine is so poor they cant afford toilet paper and wipe with stray cats, Romania and Hungary have no business in engaging in a conlict against Germany unless they're threatened by Russia.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752  
24 Oct 2009 /  #55
Piorun

I am sure that IF there were plans for a humongous Slavic superstate, they would be would never be allowed by the EU and the US as well :) Anyhow, I, of course have nothing against Slavic unity or cultural bonds as long as they don't rise about the level of a sort of laizzes faire kinda club of guys and girls who come together at certain times to party or celebrate their Slavic roots and traditions. In other words: cultural clubs to emphasize the Slav-ness is no problem at all, but political movements to work more excessively together would not be a good idea as it would undermine the whole concept of the EU and only would create camps within that same EU. And besides: there is already some sort of (less serious, I admit) Slavic cultural "bonding": the Eurovision songfestival. Up until last edition it seemed that way. And already you could see that it caused some irritation among the other participating countries. What do you think would happen if this would occur on a political scale?

In regards to your other remark about Polish solidarity with the Hungarian uprising. Here the common enemy (SU) comes again on the stage: the Hungarians were rising against the Soviets, a force which was occupying Poland too at the time. The Soviets were hated everywhere within the Eastern Bloc. So it's not surprising when a country revolts against them, it will have the support from ppls who are in the same boat. This fact could be proven by another fact: the Hungarians are not Slavic. What I meant was more like: if there is, for some reason, a crisis in PL, do you really think the Poles would sympathise with Bulgarians if these have some historical issue that is not really life-threatening? Don't think so, the main priority of the Poles in that case would be the salvation of Poland out of that crisis. And do you think the Poles would be less sympathetic to the victims of a nuclear disaster in Holland than they would be if there was a nuclear disaster in Serbia? I mean, pure on humanitarian grounds? Don't think so either.

>^..^<

M-G (shopping done - nearly cooking time)
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #56
That's the way foggy accusations get handled by me...when you want to be taken seriously bring arguments to the discussion!

No you are complicating the matter by introducing new arguments. As far as I’m concerned we were talking about the potential of Slavic coalition forming within the structures of the EU, a hypothetical scenario since as you can see for yourself Slavs at the moment are very much fractured. No matter which direction you look at. You might not see it happening and I respect your opinion, but I do. It’s not some pissing contest about EU, it’s not a bashing thread against Germany, lighten up will you it’s just my opinion period.

Listen, Germany is the biggest, richest, economically most advanced and successfull country...it pays the hugest part of the EU budget.

That’s not what I meant when I said perception and you know it, so why do you deliberately foggy this discussion?

When Poles still don't dare to speak out openly and lie to all polls and surveys and the media ignores them and still panders to a party line than it's hardly the Germans

I do it all the time, and no it’s not the fault of Germany, the way I see it if they want to know what will it take to get my vote is to have more of an open discussions with people instead of taking a poll to see what issues are popular at the time. If you want to be taken seriously as an worthy politician then you should know the issues that people are concerned about and not take some poll to show you the direction or position that you should take on certain issue just because it seems as that’s what’s popular.

The numbers are quite clear it seems...the "sentiment of the street" is quite pro-EU!

Like I’ve said you must be reading the polls I’ve participated in.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
24 Oct 2009 /  #57
As far as I’m concerned we were talking about the potential of Slavic coalition forming within the structures of the EU

Yeah i'm sure the mighty Lithuanians and the gigantic and powerfull Czech Republic will rush to our aid against the evil backstabbing Germans.

Slaves at the moment are very much fractured

Slavs, slaves are people owned by a master, Slavs are people of Slavic ethnicity, and we've been very much fractured for the last 1100 years just like every other ethnicity in Europe.
Piorun - | 658  
24 Oct 2009 /  #58
Yes I know but that's the perception one gets when reading BB's statements. I did not mean it that way though I simply made a spelling mistake. I have to go now but I will return to this topic. Have fun all.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
24 Oct 2009 /  #59
Yes I know but that’s the perception one gets when reading BB’s statements.

Are you related to Crow?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,423  
24 Oct 2009 /  #60
No you are complicating the matter by introducing new arguments

Bad me....bringing arguments to the discussion! Must be the mean German in me!!!

It's not some pissing contest about EU, it's not a bashing thread against Germany, lighten up will you it's just my opinion period.

Oh..now then...please proceed!

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