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The Battle of Vienna - Poland helped save Europe


Marek11111 9 | 816  
25 Sep 2009 /  #1
Poland helped save Europe from Ottoman empire in process become weak in
retro-prospective I think Poland should taken advantage and invade Germany.
what you think?
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
25 Sep 2009 /  #2
Certainly thats what the French did !
At that time in history were the Germans allies of the Poles ?
They also had to keep fighting the Turks for another 16 years.
Harry  
26 Sep 2009 /  #3
Marek, do you really think that anybody outside Poland gives a flying f*ck about that battle?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
26 Sep 2009 /  #5
Poland saved Europe from invading godless hordes on several occasions:
- in the 13th century at the Battle of Legnica - the Polish leader Bolesław was killed in battle, but the thrust of the Tatar invasion of Europe was broken.

- The Battle of Vienna is obvious
- the 1920 Mriacle of the Vistula routed the Bolshevik hordes trying to sppread their communist poison throuhgout Europe
- although not a one-off encounter, Polish Poznań in 1956, 1968 student disturbances, worker riots in 1970 and 1976 and the Solidarność revolution all set the stage for the overthrow of the iron curtain after 1989.
rock - | 460  
26 Sep 2009 /  #6
I believe the Turks do.

Yes, of course. If we manage to win this battle, everything in Europe would be different for us.
Polish army had an important role in that battle. But, Habsburg army, Baverians, Franskiens and Saxons were also.

Indeed, we fought against Poland, Austria and Germany.

But I believe we lost the battle mainly because of Kara Mustafa Pasha. He was a stupid man. I visited Vienna last week and I have also visited battle fields.

Kara Mustafa Pasha had done nothing to protect Kahlenberg which is one of the highest hills close to Vienna. Sobieski's army came from there easily. It was a great advantage for Polish army in the battle. Ottoman army was stilltrying to enter the city passing the walls even when Sobieski's Polish and Karl's Habsburg army were running from the hills with thousands of soldiers. At last, Ottoman army were pressed between the enemy armies and city walls. The end.
frd 7 | 1,399  
26 Sep 2009 /  #7
That's a popular Polish myth, Ottoman Empire/ Turks was in a really bad political shape when it started its warring march towards Austria. The "victory" was actually one of the nails to Polands coffin - saved Austria took Hungary into possesion and strenghtened that way 90 years later participated in parition of Poland. It wasn't a victory bad a really big mistake of King Sobieski.

Marek, do you really think that anybody outside Poland gives a flying f*ck about that battle?

Some people as you have probably noticed are interested in talking about that, why disrupt the topic then?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448  
26 Sep 2009 /  #8
With the benefit of hindsight most every failure can be explained as a blunder. The point is when things are happening about one and quick decisions need to be taken, it is usually difficult to accurately predict how things will turn out.

The cowardly Czechs played ball with the Nazis and Reds and their country was not destroyed. I wonder if the London-based Polish Govt in Exile somehow knew that Poland would be betrayed by its allies at Yalta and Potsdam and was in for 45 years of Soviet enslavement, would they have called for the Uprising nonetheless.
frd 7 | 1,399  
26 Sep 2009 /  #9
With the benefit of hindsight most every failure can be explained as a blunder. The point is when things are happening about one and quick decisions need to be taken, it is usually difficult to accurately predict how things will turn out.

It's all about politics, farseeing and predicting. Poland knew that Ottoman empire was feeble that time - they wouldn't have attacked it otherwise. Politics are not about gifts and pleasentries. Russia was already a strong enemy for Poland in that times and defeating turks untied Russias hands.

Beside one of the reasons to attack Ottoman was presumed danger for christianity in Europe which was dogs bollocks - hungarians were fighting along Ottomans and this alliance somehow didn't hinder catholicism and calvinism in Hungary.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Sep 2009 /  #10
- in the 13th century at the Battle of Legnica - the Polish leader Bolesław was killed in battle, but the thrust of the Tatar invasion of Europe was broken.

No it was not, the battle was a disaster, much of the Polish army was slaughtered and the price got beheaded, all the others you mentioned deserve their place but the mongols withdrawed only becuase of the death of their leader.

It wasn't a victory bad a really big mistake of King Sobieski.

While historically we know it was a mistake (whatever can be said about Turks they're more civilized than Germans, Turks never ever started a world war) Sobieski at the time didnt know that.

Polish power was already waning, in fact Vienna was the last great military (succesfull) effort Poland undertook for more than a hundred years and Germany at the time was a powerless midget that Polish military could squash, the way history turned around a hundred years later was in no way obvious at Sobieskis time (though there were hints).

which was dogs bollocks

Quite the opposite, Turks were very much for spreading Islam, they didnt succeed in Hungary but thats mainly because there were usually European armies somewhere in the back of the picture.
TheOther 5 | 3,890  
26 Sep 2009 /  #11
Turks they're more civilized than Germans

Repeat that a few more times and the Germans will be more than happy to send those civilized Turks and Kurdish people over to Poland...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Sep 2009 /  #12
What always matters is the bottom line and the bottom line is that Germans with their Mozart, Bach and Shubert are capable of behaviour so monstrous i couldnt say with a straight face that Europe wouldnt be better off if every German man, woman and child got killed post WW2, Turks with all their backwardness never built Dachau on the other hand.
TheOther 5 | 3,890  
26 Sep 2009 /  #13
are capable of behaviour

Who are you that you are entitled to show such extreme prejudice against one people based on something that happened a long time ago? Did you grow up during the war? Have you seen all those atrocities as an eye-witness? Were you personally involved? Or were you just taught to think this way? By whom?

Sorry man, but your attitude is so much backward - I'm speachless.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Sep 2009 /  #14
Who are you that you are entitled to show such extreme prejudice

Are you f*cking stupid? Of course you are. Germans started 2 (TWO) WORLD wars, in the second one they commited the single most hideous feat of genocide in the history of any nation, any race and any period, when it comes to murder, rape, degradation, torture and abuse Germans won the golden medal of human race and you call that prejudice? Are you a foking moron?

Have you seen all those atrocities as an eye-witness?

No but they happened.

Were you personally involved?

Each year when i visit my familys graves i'm personally involved, when i visit Warsaw and i see an ugly concrete city in the place of what was once called "Paris of the East."

When i took a trip to a concentration camp, when i look at how small my nation is in comparison to others because it lost 20% of its numbers, f*ck yes i'm personally involved, my grandchildren will be personally involved, the same can be said for milions across Europe.

Or were you just taught to think this way? By whom?

By history.

Sorry man, but your attitude is so much backward - I'm speachless.

Whats backward? Claiming that Turks are more humane that Germans? History proves me right.
TheOther 5 | 3,890  
26 Sep 2009 /  #15
Sokrates
I suggest you crawl back in your cave. And while you're at it, change your nick to Neanderthal, please. Thank goodness there's only a tiny minority of Poles which is as braindead as you are.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Sep 2009 /  #16
Ah yes when faced with hard facts you resort to your old ways :))))
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,878  
26 Sep 2009 /  #17
Sokrates, if you had been in the position of Germany it would had been YOU starting the wars.
If you (Poland I mean) would had been in the boots of GB or France YOU would had been enslaved and exploited half of the world....

If you had been enslaved by...say...the Spaniards you would curse the Spaniards today instead of the Germans.
The few times Poland was strong enough it proved happy to be also involved in such imperialistic adventures...

Just because it had been Poland suffering during the last centuries from their weakness compared to their neighbours that doesn't make these neighbours the ultimate devil incarnate!

It's maybe an understandable polish-centric viewpoint, but that's all...

Try to see things in perspective before you go and judge something or somebody ultimately for eternity.

Rarely another people has done so much for the advancing of the modern world than the germanic people - so excuse our failures, or not....who cares!
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Sep 2009 /  #18
Another thread and yet again its the Poles patting themselves on the back and hoping others tell them how great they were/are.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
26 Sep 2009 /  #19
Yeah, they are quite good at that. They never take the blame for any feck-ups, though. We saw a fairly strong army get trounced by the Nazis. Piłsudski laughed off Germany to his peril in 1935.

Nobody has really shown how Europe was saved, I'm not convinced so far.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Sep 2009 /  #20
Nobody has really shown how Europe was saved, I'm not convinced so far.

Let's be honest with ourselves, it was the German high command that saved Europe by being over ambitious and fighting on too many fronts. Let alone the other countless mistakes they made towards the end of the war!!!!
frd 7 | 1,399  
26 Sep 2009 /  #21
Sokrates

They were not spreading Islam, their power was waning due to:
- Janissaries revolts that started 1603 and following peasants and ethnic minorities revolts
- corruption of local lords
Successive sultans have chosen war - to take Janissaries out of cities and to unite corrupted landlords. It was a very short sighted policy, because war cost much more than eventual loot. It led to bankruptcy and anarchy. And that was the situation in Ottoman empire when Mehmed IV made his march to Austria. King Sobieski knew that, that's why he attacked.

As I said Hungary didn't have a problem with religion and was seeking for help to free itself from Habsburg's reign. There was no "Islam" spreading. Beside in that time Janissaries revolted against Islamic syncrasies such as celibacy and casernement.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
26 Sep 2009 /  #22
Sokrates, if you had been in the position of Germany it would had been YOU starting the wars.

Rubbish, we were in the position of Germany from 1400s to 1650s, thats a quarter of millenium of absolutely unchallenged power, the worst we did was mess up a few Moscow districts and abuse Ukrainians a bit.

If you (Poland I mean) would had been in the boots of GB or France YOU would had been enslaved and exploited the half world....

Then tell me why did Poles invite Germans, granted them laws and priveliges, same for Ruthenians really, why didnt Poland circa 1500 just march into Saxony Branderburgia and assorted states and tell the locals its our historical lands and please dont tell me that various German statelets could do anything but sh*t themselves in that particular period.

If you had been enslaved by...say...the Spaniards you would curse the Spaniards today instead of the Germans.

Absolutely, everyone including Poland has some bad pages in their books but you just managed to surpass everyone, even Attilla or Czyngis Chan got the back seat, even Assyrians who used to nail newborn babies to their siege towers didnt match WW2 Germany.

Try to see things in perspective before you go and judge something or somebody.

You know i try, you should know best that i have mixed feelings about Germany, from one side i really admire your national potential but from the other i'd like Germany to be somewhere safe, like Australia.

As for seeing things from someone elses perspective? First you took Polish lands, then after WW1 you lost them and started WW2 to take back the lands their previous owners won back from you 29 years earlier.

You know? I could probably see your point despite all that, national pride is a big thing in Warsaw so why would Berlin be different, moral basis aside i could probably relate to something simple like getting satisfaction but i could never relate to moonscaping Warsaw, gassing a fifth of my people or having newborn children chucked out of death trains.

Personally i whole heartedly forgave Germany and hope for a better mutual future, sh*t happens, sometimes its big but you have to roll on but i will never ever accept any sort of rationalisation of what happened, any reason you might have had in the beginning was not reason enough in the end.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
26 Sep 2009 /  #23
We should be glad that Himmler didn't take over. Hitler was already delusional and overstretched. Himmler may have had the cunning to pull off the vital victories needed, and then what?
Wroclaw Boy  
26 Sep 2009 /  #24
Marek, do you really think that anybody outside Poland gives a flying f*ck about that battle?

It is a Polish Forum a perfectly reasonable thread. Im sure many Plastic Poles OUTSIDE of Poland give a flying fcuk.

Poland helped save Europe

Butterfly effect
frd 7 | 1,399  
26 Sep 2009 /  #25
This thread is not about Germans, it's about Battle of Vienna and Polish contribution to it.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Sep 2009 /  #26
maybe people found someting more interesting to talk about :) if you don't like it then get admin to move all the posts that are not on topic, go on run to teacher :):)
frd 7 | 1,399  
26 Sep 2009 /  #27
I tried, ain't gonna work :) I guess you can add a little bit of German bashing in every history thread , it's always going along with the topic.
TheOther 5 | 3,890  
26 Sep 2009 /  #28
Personally i whole heartedly forgave Germany and hope for a better mutual future

I don't believe you. Why then did you claim that Europe would be better off "if every German man, woman and child got killed post WW2". That's a total contradiction.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,878  
26 Sep 2009 /  #29
Rubbish, we were in the position of Germany from 1400s to 1650s, thats a quarter of millenium of absolutely unchallenged power, the worst we did was mess up a few Moscow districts and abuse Ukrainians a bit.

No, the destructivity grew with the technology and the industrializations.
Former local wars became world wars with bombs who could kill thousands at once....but war is war!

Ask the Balkans what they think about the civilizations of their turkish opressors.
(Skull tower anybody?)
Or the Inkas about their genocide or...the Carthagians against Rome...history is full of brutality and mass murder, full scale destruction, enslavement of whole peoples and genocide.

And Poland never was in the position of a big power who had the means to the will to opress and conquer on the big scale. But you did what you could (or you at least tried) with what you had.

You can't leave your polish-centric viewpoint behind, that is understandable but that doesn't makes it true.

It's not so much a question of national pride but of historical context.

For example after Rome conquered Gaul, 1 in 4 Gauls got murdered/enslaved.
But today Rome has many admirers....what would the enslaved, murdered Gauls say about that?

Rome didn't had the weapons Germany had....but if they had, do you think they wouldn't had used them?

Napoleon was a dictator who tried to conquer Europe. An alliance was build in the end to break his neck, for Europes freedom...without Poland if I remember it correctly....wheren't you buddies with Napoleon then? Even accompanying to Russia to conquer Moscow and the Russians???

Wouldn't Nappy had used every weapon he could have gotten his hands on to achieve his goal?

First you took Polish lands, then after WW1 you lost them and started WW2 to take back the lands their previous owners won back from you 29 years earlier.

Well, we just took back lands you Slavs stole from us as we didn't look....why not go even farther back! :):):)
rock - | 460  
26 Sep 2009 /  #30
Dachau

I saw this place last week.

It is the peak point for showing how humans can be disgusting.

In history there is not any systematical massacre can be compared with this.

Germans have the potantial to do such things any time.

If it happens today, the victims will be Turks instead of Jews.

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