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German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder?


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #91
Well, Obama realises that America consumes close to 25% of the world's supplies of oil+gas, with only 3% of the world's reserves being in and around America.

Anyway, we should take this to a random thread Wahldo.
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #92
Germany declared war on US, not other way around. When a country such as Germany, which at the time was the foremost military power in the world, declares war on your country, how can that not be considered a threat? Within days of Hitler's declaration, U-Boats were sinking dozens of ships right off coast of US, and Hitler was also preparing his "Amerika" bombers. Not to mention his own atomic bomb program, which was already in full swing well before Manhattan Project got started.

Allies did not commit mass murder of POWs. Germans committed mass murder of Russian POWs and Russians did same to Germans. Russians also murdered many tens of thousands of Polish POWs (see Katyn). But survival rate of axis POWs in allied camps was highest of all.

NATO sent mission to Afghanistan because key 9/11 terrorists who planned the murder of 3,000 people were living openly in Afghanistan under protection of Taliban. Attempts were made to ask Taliban to cooperate, but Taliban refused. It became obvious that Taliban was not only condoning attacks but supporting them as well. Put in simple terms, Afghan government shared responsibility in killing 3,000 people. Thus US invoked NATO Article V, being attacked by Afghanistan, and allies came to aid US as guaranteed. Taliban was toppled. This was a good cause.

Iraq is much more gray and will remain debated for years. But current situation necessitates a force there to maintain stability for the region.

Regardless, if a country wishes to honor its soldiers and fallen, they should be allowed to do so. Makes me sick to read that groups of radical left anti-war protesters in US have used funerals of fallen soldiers to protest the war, heckling and attacking families whose sons and daughters have fallen. This would never be allowed in Poland.

Libertarian definition is I don't encroach on you if you don't encroach on me. That's a fine principal to live by, as long as it is followed.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #93
Germany declared war on US, not other way around.

Well, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around!
Some could think without these declarations there wouldn't had be a world war...but they had to fullfull their treaty to protect Poland right?

Against the Germans that is...the Russians who marched just in from the other side were cool allies instead (not to mention that Poland after the war was not exactly free anyhow)...but then...who cares...right?

Regardless, if a country wishes to honor its soldiers and fallen, they should be allowed to do so

Agreed!
And no one should have the right to generalize them all as criminals!
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #94
Some could think without these declarations there wouldn't had be a world war...but they had to fullfull their treaty to protect Poland right?

At the time of Rippentrop-Molotov pact, both Hitler and Stalin were already looking beyond Falls Weiss to attack each other. War was inevitable regardless of French/UK declaration of War against Germany (which incidentally was quite nominal and only resulted in "phony-war" for two years). One reason why Germany did so well so early in Barbarossa was that Stalin had his forces massed on the border in offensive formations, which proved disastrous for defense. Hitler just beat Stalin to take the first step. And Germany had planned its Lebensraum eastern policy for years before June 1941.

Hitler also had planned on invading France too regardless France's nominal support of Poland. Hitler was obsessed with taking Paris in retaliation for Germany's loss in the Great War, this is clear in his writings. In fact Great War never ended for Hitler. He enacted the Schlieffen Plan again, only successfully with greater mobilization, took Paris, and forced French to sign surrender in same railway car as Treaty of Versailles. This was compounding of lifelong dream for Hitler.

At same time, Hitler never wanted war with England, and tried to convince the English to join them as Aryan brothers. Even had support in English Royal Family. When obvious that was not going to happen, he enacted plans for Seelöwe, which never came to fruition due to lack of air superiority and impending need to strike Stalin before Stalin struck him.

In any case, there would most decidedly had been a world war with or without the English and French declarations against Germany.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #95
Where's ur proof that the Taliban were behind the attacks? They denied it. Also, they can be paid to make statements. It was Mahmoud who wired the money to Atta. He was the former head of the ISI, in PAKISTAN. Many of the hijackers were Saudis, Wahhabist state.

Tell me, how did Afghanistan have a hand in 9/11?
Matyjasz 2 | 1,544  
9 Nov 2008 /  #96
Matyjasz:

I'm this close to believe that it was actually Poland that started the war. Lol

Nope, the counted on their allies for that...(didn't work out as planned though)

So what you are saying is that Germany's aggression on Poland in 1939 was just a pre-emptive strike?
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #97
In October 2001, the British released reports connecting Osama with al-Qaeda and the Afghanistan Taliban government. It showed the Taliban had given harbor to Osama for years leading up to attack. US requested Taliban shut down all al-Qaeda bases in Afghanistan, open them for inspection, and extradite Osama. Taliban refused all requests.

Taliban challenged US to prove its case, and they would extradite Osama to an Islamic country for trial. US provided eyewitness testimony and telephone recordings to Taliban, but Taliban said it was insufficient evidence for extradition and refused. Taliban had also refused extradition of Osama years before after US showed evidence of his involvement in bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998.

While the money you mentioned in your example indeed came from Pakistan, it was apparent that Afghan Taliban was providing Osama and al-Quaeda with a safe haven where they could live without fear of arrest, set up camps, plan their operations, and train their people. Its dirty hand doesn't get much clearer than that. Under any criminal court this would be accomplice to murder. The fact that they refused to cooperate only implied the Taliban was not only condoning but witting of Osama's activities and supporting him politically.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #98
So what you are saying is that Germany's aggression on Poland in 1939 was just a pre-emptive strike?

Nope, that was naked vengeance for most Germans!

But Barbarossa, the attack on the SU in 1941 that was for most a pre-emptive strike...even some russian historians agree with that.
But it's still hotly discussed and most relevant documents are still top secret in Moskow....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov

Icebreaker: Who Started the Second World War?, by Viktor Suvorov (Russian title: Ledokol, Ледокол) is a documentary book, which alleges that World War II started as a result of Joseph Stalin's ploy to "liberate" the working class of Europe and eventually the whole world.

Suvorov's thesis

Suvorov claims that Stalin successfully manipulated Hitler into removing the "buffer zone" (Poland) between Europe and the USSR. Suvorov further argues that Stalin's goal was the export of communism to other countries. Once Hitler 'broke the ice', Soviet victory in the large-scale war that followed would enable the USSR to impose Stalinist regimes on most of Europe. In this theory, Nazi military aggression would ironically form the icebreaker for a communist invasion.

Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #99
Oh, come on now. He was given safe haven as certain people believed he could be a valuable asset in the fight against the Northern Alliance. Man, this is getting boring, trotting out the same arguments. The CIA supported the Taliban. Read a book by a guy called Bernstein or Burnstein, I can't remember how to spell his name. He spoke of America letting a huge convoy out of Afghanistan to cross into Pakistan. Why did Bush and Myers say that OBL wasn't important when there was a huge bounty on his head? I guess u don't read Arabic press at all so u may not have read accounts that OBL died in Dec 2001. Or u believe Bhutto was lying about his murder?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
9 Nov 2008 /  #100
Places 1 till 98, all german aces!

LOL ! I love german superiority complex. Especially when I see 5 ugly morons in old Skoda driving 2h to our Tesco to buy cheaper food.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #101
LOL ! I love german superiority complex.

Luftwaffe aces were the best, but please, no jealousy! :):):)

Especially when I see 5 ugly morons in old Skoda driving 2h to our Tesco to buy cheaper food.

At least they drive their own, not a stolen one ...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #102
Spitfires put an end to that ;)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #103
Sorry, but without Stalin there wouldn't had been any Spitfires for much longer...now say: THANK YOU COMRADE STALIN!

...feels good eh?
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #104
If (and a very strong "if" here) Osama was ever considered an asset to the US, this would have been from 1979-1989 during time of Russian invasion of Afghanistan. By early 1990s, everything had changed.

By time of Osama's involvement in 1993 first World Trade Center bombing and 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the US considered Osama a fugitive and wanted him captured to bring to trial. One book says Clinton probably had Osama in the camera of a Predator UAV flying over Tarnak Farm in Afghanistan, but goal then was to capture him, not kill him. Of course things change after 11 September.

I know that facts can be boring, and it's much more interesting to think of grand conspiracy theories. The Arabic press excels at this, so if you do not read it with a critical eye, I can certainly understand your point of view. It is highly entertaining. Investigative journalism is an oxymoron there.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #105
Oh, and Western press is 100% credible? Al Jazeera isn't that bad. So, smartass, why didn't they capture him when they had the chance? The truth? They didn't want to. Do u want me to forward u the Youtube link? Or is that not up 2 ur standards?
Franek 8 | 271  
9 Nov 2008 /  #106
I thought that we were discussing WW2? This subject has been blown completely out of proportion. We are now into present day conflict. The original question was.. Did the Allies commit war crimes against Germans.? I for one saw very little of it committed by the Americans, and British. Yes, there was a little. But mostly in retribution for crimes committed by the Germans against our troops The Russian conflict was something that I know nothing about.. As for the French, they were cowards. I never fought next to a Frenchman.

WW2 was a justifiable war. As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Seanus. Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo, Iraq, afghanistan, should never had happened. Since when has America been chosen to be the worlds policeman.?

I say, bring back all American troops from foreign lands an let them protect America.
Just wait until Obama sends American troops into Africa to quell the turmoil there.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #107
U know u wanted to, Sir ;). I didn't get a response from anyone. Fighting abroad protects mainland Americans from what? I'd say that it makes terrorists more resolute in striking there but the truth is that security has REALLY been tightened so most Americans should rest easy.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #108
Since when has America been chosen to be the worlds policeman.?

Interesting question...I once read about the believe of "american exceptionalism" if I got it right.
Which is about exactly that...to be a "light unto nations" kind of...a natural leadership...

Is this true? Is this really taught?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #109
Sorry, but without Stalin there wouldn't had been any Spitfires for much longer...now say: THANK YOU COMRADE STALIN!

Germans actually gave up Battle of Britain in October 1940, almost eight months prior to invasion of Russia. Many historians would say Germans could have won if Hitler and Göring had not decided to change strategy of bombing British airbases and switched to terror bombing of London. But point is that Stalin did not begin to directly occupy Hitler until later, and Russians did not provide any relief to the British. Poles however contributed to RAF squadrons (example: Polish no. 303 Fighter Squadron with highest claimed kills in RAF).

Also the Spitfire is given too much credit. Backbone of RAF at time was also Hawker Hurricane.

Hört ihr die Motoren singen
Ran an den Feind!
Hört ihr's in den Ohren klingen
Ran an den Feind!
Bomben! Bomben!
Bomben auf Engelland!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #110
Russians did not provide any relief to the British

Oh please...

Hitler never wanted a war with GB so every actions had been really half hearted...just imagine the mass of the german forces now in Russia concentrated on this little island....even as they chased you off the continent at Dunkirk they let most of you go just like that.

The RAF never met with most of the best aces because they worked their asses off in the East!
Franek 8 | 271  
9 Nov 2008 /  #111
Come on Seanus.. Do you really think that America is safe? Your imagination is running away with you again. America is safe? Yeah sure.. Do you for a second believe that there are no offensive terror weapons in America already? Have you ever been to America?

This is not Poland.. America is a large country with many avenues of compromising our security. We have many enemies from abroad and within our borders.. It is just a matter of time.
Maxxx Payne 1 | 196  
9 Nov 2008 /  #112
But Barbarossa, the attack on the SU in 1941 that was for most a pre-emptive strike...even some russian historians agree with that.

Stalin did plan to attack Germany in sometime near 1941(and in the end spread "revolution" to rest of Europe) but did the Hitler know this ?

Probably not, he was too busy own plans.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #113
OK Franek, will u admit that it has become more unsafe as a result of waging a holy war? That religion has created all manner of problems. I just wanted to give people what they wanted to hear but all manner of terror cells exist in America and can be unleashed at any opportune moment.

Sorry, did I just contribute to the culture of fear? Oops ;)
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #114
So, smartass, why didn't they capture him when they had the chance?

At the time, I do not believe the Predator UAV was yet equipped with the eagle claws it needed to swoop down, capture Osama in its talons, and bring him back to the nest. Maybe they have that upgrade now.

America has not chosen to be world's policeman. Most countries, and certainly every European nation, has a role in policing the world. Where ever you are from, if you do not think your own government has some type of role in policing, whether regionally or globally, you would be mistaken. Whether through membership in Interpol, Europol, OSCE, Council of Europe, NATO, military, etc., policing world is a combined multilateral effort and everyone works together. The US plays a leading role in maintaining global security, is most visible and therefore controversial. And not immune from making mistakes. But Americans do not see themselves as sole world police and do not believe in self exceptionalism. They are valuable partners for Europe.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #115
Look, they didn't even chart him! They even knew the flight was bound for Islamabad. Wow, that should've been hook, line and sinker for America.

I like the second paragraph, showing the multi-faceted nature of policing. I can't find fault with that.

Dawid, please watch the following, thanks:

youtube.com/watch?v=d_BS83BmTIQ

youtube.com/watch?v=LQaI9uCw9hU&feature=related
sjvietboy408 summed it up BEAUTIFULLY in his comments
Franek 8 | 271  
9 Nov 2008 /  #116
Ok Seanus. Yes I agree with you. it is the crazies from the Middle East that are causing the problem. For them they are fighting a holy war. They are fanatics with no regard for human life. Not even for their own.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #117
Thank you :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,937  
9 Nov 2008 /  #118
Not even for their own.

Especially not their own I would say...who keeps count about how many of their own civilians, women and children they murdered in the last years during their "jihad" against the "evil" West...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #119
youtube.com/watch?v=L63CPzdIa54&feature=related
nice video
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #120
The RAF never met with most of the best aces because they worked their asses off in the East!

Nicht wahr. Out of top five German aces of WWII, two had joined the Luftwaffe in time for Battle of Britain (Barkhorn, Rall). Neither had any kills in the battle, one was shot down. Other top German aces (Hartmann, Kittel, Nowotny) didn't start flying until Barbarossa, and were not yet active in Battle of Britain.

Top Five German Aces of WWII
1. Erich Hartmann, 352 kills. Joined Luftwaffe in 1942, never got chance to fight in Britain.
2. Gerhard Barkhorn, 301 kills. No kills in Battle of Britain, was shot down. First kill over Eastern front.
3. Günther Rall, 275 kills. Flew bomber escort in Battle of Britain, no kills. First kill in battle of France.
4. Otto Kittel, 267 kills, first assigned in February 1941, never got chance to fight in Britain.
5. Walter Nowotny, 258 kills, first assigned in February 1941, never got chance to fight in Britain.

German aces were most decidedly not working in the East during Battle of Britain, as I said before, eight months separated Luftschlacht um England and Fall Barbarossa.

Based on experiences of the two top aces who were active in Britain, seems like they had an easier time shooting down Sturmoviks than Spitfires!

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