History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land.

I can imagine what would be the reaction if this was said by a Russian. :)

LOL :)

Mykhailo Hryshevsky "History of Ukraine-Rus'" and Orest Subtelnyj "Ukraine: A history" :)

Thank you I will look it up

why does he have to provide any? Why don't you look sources up. Is it possible that you actually not interested of adding up to your knowledge on Ukraine because it will be not congruent with what you already think?

Nathan, why are you, of all people wasting time on trying to convince a bunch of poorly informed people to discuss anything Ukrainian. Time and again, they have proved that they are poor partners in discussion, not to mention this crazy Russian guy;). Russians are Russian. Over -blown ego with not that much substance to back it up really, unless the size of the country authomatically provides the top place in the highest rankings. What country would produce and accept Soviet regime (self - inflicted) for such a long time.

Poles are a bit different. They know that their influence in the Ukraine has been lost a long time ago, yet, they are having problems with accepting it by trying to REJECT the fact that Ukraine is a country with its own history, intelligentsia, culture and so on and downplaying its importance is just a weak point in their argument.

I know Subtelnyj's book. From my knowledge, there were around 10 noted uprisings.
It was more about class struggle than about national liberation.


source

Regarding uprisings in the last decade of the 16th and the first half of the 17th century:


source

Even Kmielnicky didn't clearly assume his role as a 'national liberator'.

And here we have the Captain Obvious at the helm... ;)
Hm... there was something mirandish about that. :\

Words of wisdom!

I guess this is why Ukraine received such a moral support* in their Orange Revolution (or whatever official translation of it is) - because the Poles reject their right to existence.

*not sure about the details, I lived at opposite corner of the world then and didn't pay much attention, know just bits and pieces

___
e_t

I was referring to some of posters on this board, not to the general Polish public. I was in Poland during that time and I saw the tremendous support for Ukraine. I am not sure why it was so intense, but I am guessing that Poles know what it meant to fight for their independence, the right to identity and so on. It is a basic human right as far as I know. Poles can also identify with living under the communism, imposed by the Russian regime


did I touch the sensitive spot Sashenka? Russian regime killed their own people for goodness sake. Never forget that. It is like turning against your own "family". Nothing can compare to that.

By your provocative post where you called me "crazy" for no reason? :) Mmm... I believe you should have touched the spot of your conscience (if you have it of course).


Why are you saying that to me? and what does it have to do with this thread? Soviet regime had its own crimes and Bandera did his own.


Like when gals call me this way *blushing cheeks* :)

that is a compliment from a Russian:). I never called YOU crazy, I was referring to a generic Russian type (does not exist in reality -but embodies all the sentiments of a Russian person all in one). The Ukrainian generic type: Banderivets, Upivets, peasant, uneducated, no free will, confused about his/her identity.

Polish generic types: believes in honor, but does not follow through, prays in a church, while gossiping about the neighbour, believes in the past glory instead of concentrating on the present etc, etc.

Russian: like to show off, does not take NO for an answer (Khrushchov comes to mind), not afraid to show his weaknesses (Jeltsyn stepping drunk out of the plain), immigrates to the West- after Pieriestroyka, loves art and literature beyond anything else, thinks that other nations are just there to serve the needs of Russia, and on and on. I am off topic now.


agree. I was talking to Nathan, not to you, so you answered at your own risk. I am off topic.


I know;). Hard to imagine that people who speak with such an intensity and love to each other are also able to.......never mind. I made my point.

False.
A huge majority of Poles don't care about history and their main achievement on the field of the Polish - Ukrainian relationship is awareness of the Ukrainian presence in European politics.

The last statement is not arrogant.
It reflects the true situation - for the post ww2 generation Ukraine was just a part of the Soviet Union.

Ukrainian history (in both Polish and Ukrainian versions) is some ridiculous conglomerate of myths, wishful thinking and to lesser extend ... facts.

Ukrainian version: starting deep in the history with Goths and Vikings, then never ending rebellions for national freedom against Poles and later Russians.
Of course the favorite occupation of Poles were impaling, rape and burning their own villages and cites (constructed by talented Ukrainians)lol.
All oppressors with no exception were Polish catholics or later Muscovites.
Rusins (Ukrainians) were freedom fighters like Gonta or Zhelesnyak or Pylyp Orlyk who wrote the first state constitutions in Europe.

Polish version: noble Polish pans brought civilization to stone age people in the East (still dwelling in their cavern ). Ungrateful Ukrainians rebelled until they destroyed the only democratic republic in Europe.

Less sophisticated version includes as a national Ukrainian hero Alexandr Domogarov from Moscow who played Bohun in Polish movie "With fire and sword".

Both parts have some problems with Bohdan Chmelnicki who "sold" Ukraine to the Russian czar.

Nobody sold anything. Bodya signed a military pact about joined fight against RP, which Russians as always turned it into something else and what is more important - the document which had 2 copies - one of which was taken back to Moskovia, mysteriosly disappeared and only mythical suggestions of what it was about was created by following tzars and later Soviet regime. Bohdan Chmelnyc'kyj made quite a few strategical mistakes in his life, but nevertheless he is and will be respected as a national hero.

Porzeczka, registered Cossacks and those who created Zaporhiz'ku Sich were people of different attitudes and points of view. These never recognized a king to be their superior. Even Hetman was chosen by them and could have been taken down anytime if he did anything wrong. Their own policy regarding Ottoman empire, constant fights against the whole spectrum of RP society in the 17th century,own court and executive system, language, religion etc. puts them far away to be considered as some subjects of some far-remote king Horoh :)

No, on the wild stepps. The rest is correct.

Nathan, according to my knowledge the Pereyeslav Treaty declared protection of the Cossack state by the czar.

Even if it is a matter of controversy Chmelnitsky started 1654 a dangerous play with Moscow with some disastrous consequences for both, Ukraine and Poland.
Some years ago I used to discuss with Ukrainians from the old UNA/UNSO board (it was closed because of permanent web-brigades' attacks).

In spite of many controversies we were able to agree on Bohdan Chmelnitsky role in the history:
Talented, charismatic politician and leader but hardly successful national hero.
Hardly a real hero just because of the Pereyeslav Treaty !
Interesting that you are "protecting" him.
337 years of Russian "protection" is that enough to call him a hero ?

That reminds me of one of my favorite paintings:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks

LMFAO

And Nathan is telling me that Ukrainians are not Poles. OF COURSE THEY ARE! :-)

Oh Torq, maybe it's just a conspiracy ?
They simple don't want to let Kremlin know about that.

Nah, they are well able to write a letter to Kremlin as well, if need be :)

Hm... :) In Slavic (in Ukrainian in this particular case) it's a lot funnier. :)) too bad you can't read cyrillic. Oh... here we go:


This should work better... :)

No, Nathan is not Polish... :\

Cheers, Sasha! :)

The letter is a masterpiece. Why can't all diplomatic correspondence be conducted this way?
It would be much more entertaining :)

...and less hypocritical. :)

[quote=Torq]The letter is a masterpiece. Why can't all diplomatic correspondence be conducted this way?
It was NOT suppose to be diplomatic. I am glad that you have mastered the use of WIKI;)

I am sorry you haven't mastered the use of the "quote" option ;)

I have, but I reserve for the "worthy" ;).

As you can imagine why such precious for Russians document didn't survive. Simple explanation: Pereyaslav treaty was nothing else but a pact about cooperation between Cossacks and Moskovy. They obviously needed to make an elephant out of nothing to later make retarded demands. Just for a simple example Swedish army managed to get Chmelnickyj banner while their stay in Warsaw (taken from Berestechko battlefield) and it is now in Stockholm Armemuseum. The same pertains to bulava (maze of power in Cossacks). So some remote army was interested in taking an almost completely burnt banner from a battlefield and save it till now! while Russians didn't save a copy of this so important treaty?! Strange, isn't it?

Hey, I don't defend Chmelnickyj. He made many mistakes. One of them is staying at Zamosc pointlessly, instead of crushing Poland completely. Poland lay naked in front of him. Well, he thought that Polish king won't interfere with him as a hetman of Ukraine. Why? It would have released some tension among our nations into the future generations :)


Nonetheless, he is regarded as a Ukrainian hero and a great army commander who brought many military victories and in his name there is (if I am not mistaken) the highest military order of Ukraine.

Cheers.

All of the text and especially the last part made me think of Beck...
Torq I think you got something right!

Really Ukrainians east of Kiev and in Crimea do feel Russians.And in Dnipro and Donetsk they don't even speak Ukrainian.It was funny when the e

bassy gave them papers to complete in Ukrainian and they could not understand what was written on them.

Not true at all.
There are about 19 - 20% ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and I do believe they feel Russians.
Why shouldn't they ?

Many Ukrainians are Russian speaking or bilingual and except for some "sovoks" they are quite patriotic in sens of Ukrainian patriotism.
Using the language doesn't make them Russians.
You can see the same situation in Ireland, Finland., South-America etc.

I've heard the same as southern says, Borrka. An ex of my friend is from the eastern part of Ukraine and she said that many people speak Russian and have Russian empathy there. Quite far east of Kiev I'd say.