History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land.

Go to a place like Dnipropetrovsk and you will understand why the whole Ukrainian thing is a comedy.The most extreme was what a taxi driver in Kiev told me:We,Ukrainians are the real Russians".End of comments.

Or when I asked a Belarus girl to explain me the difference between Russians and Belarus and she told me we are also Russians but white Russians.I cannot explain you the difference."

Donetsk too. They really do feel Russian. To me, they have much more in common in Russia than with Poland.

Yes,only in the West they insist all the time on their Ukrainian heritage.Even there they mostly watch Russian TV and regard anything Russian as superior.My opinion I'd that they are afraid of Poles at least they seem so.Poles play the bosses there.

And mind you if they perceive you as an Ukrainian you will get a very low treatment by authorities in Poland we talk here about a very humiliating experience which you will never live as an English person.

Afraid of Poles? Ukrainians are tough cookies, I don't think fear is utmost in their vocabulary.

They are afraid of Poliaki.Like there are still some unpaid bills.

It works both ways. Some Poles are afraid of them too for past actions. On an intergovernmental level, they both have nothing to fear.

Some Ukrainians are really afraid.They usually keep silent about that but they don't like seeing Poles checking Lvov.There is also a heavy UPA support and there was a heavy clash one year ago between former UPA members and red army soldiers.People over 70 years old started beating each other to bleed till police intervened and dissolved them.

You will always find such people, southern. They lived through hard times and keep their memories. It's understandable.

But how it makes them Russian ?

I used to travel for business all over Ukraine.
From East to West.
And have met three categories of people living there: Ukrainians, Russians and Sovoks.

To be Ukrainian does not mean to be anti-Russian.
What I saw was rather kind of a "critical" sympathy.

As for cultural influences:
I love Russian culture but am I Russian ?
Hardly.

I know a Lviv born girl from Kiev.
She is slightly nationalistic type but prefers to speak ... Russian !
Once I asked her
"Why ? I know you are fluent in both languages."
She didn't know lol.

So don't look for simple answers.
It's possible to be Russian speaking patriot of independent Ukraine.lol.

PS. Sovoks (sovki) are post-Soviet fosiles free of any national feelings.

It was funny when an ukr woman told me her suprise and scare when she saw a street in Lvov called Bandera ulice."Bandera?WTF?He was a criminal.They have here Bandera ulice?How is it possible?"Because in communist times they were indocrinated that UPA were criminals.But now in Lvov they are more like national heroes.

From post #94 (this thread)


From post #23 (in "Poland is the most friendly neighbor of Ukraine and Russia - Ukrainian poll by Borrka)

I usually don't reply to the scum and I am not going to do it now, but for the rest of PF members who hadn't still realized what southern is - a simple example of lying piece of sh*t.

The most interesting part is that 2 posts were written 45 days!!! apart and they sound as a memorized phrase from the first to the last word, except for the cities ;)

So it's not true then? ;) ;)

I don't remember if he was in Lvov or in Kiev.Most likely he was in Lvov.But then why would he talk to me about Russians?In Lvov they speak ukrainian.

Anyway I am not aware what benefits do Ukrainians draw from their independance but the whole issue is highly problematic.

It's probably all about the language.
My guess is the taxi drivers tried to explain that it's Ukraine being the true heir of Kievian Rus' - it's a common opinion among Ukrainians on the contrary to Russians lol.

It's pretty hard to express those nuances in English or any other language.
Mostly, people who don't have enough "feeling" for East-Slavonic languages will get the message wrong.

The best example is this Polish one:
Russkie pierogi does not mean Russian pierogi.
It means Ukrainian pierogi in slightly archaic Polish.

If Ukrainians feel ukrainians,let them be ukrainians.

I didn't say it made them Russian, Borrka, just that they have leanings perhaps from a lack of identity. The Ukrainian girl spoke Russian in Poland. Why not speak Ukrainian as young Poles have about as much chance as understanding that as Russian, wouldn't you say?

Ukrainian nationalism makes sense in west Ukraine,in the rest it does not make sense in my opinion.In Dnipro central square there is still the statue of Breznhev,so what are we talking about?

Statues are not meant to be toppled as they are remnants of history, symbols of the way it was. The only exceptions are the likes of Saddam Hussein, whose statue was hauled down by haters of his oppressive regime and with good reason.

No, it was in Kiev.
I just want to stress the language is not the most important factor of the national identity in Ukraine.
One can speak Ukrainian, Russian or some surhzyk and still be a devoted Ukrainian patriot.
It's 'sovok" who suffers a lack of identity.

What I said above does not mean they have exactly the same political views.

I remember my discussion with some young people in Odessa which is part Ukrainian, part Russian with lot of Jewish color so you can imagine their different opinions.

But all of the sudden they had no doubts:
Ukraine should go for the full EU-membership.

No no, I was saying that my friend's ex was from the eastern part of Ukraine. She spoke Russian to the Poles until she got enough confidence to use some Polish.

Why should Ukraine join the EU, Borrka? Rather the EU than NATO for sure. Ukraine in NATO would spark future conflict no doubt.

I can imagine many different reasons for that.
First ... maybe she doesn't speak Ukrainian or some local surzyk only ?

Then, many people in the post-Soviet republics still believe Russian is a kind of lingua franca in the East-European region .
At least many Poles used to learn it at school.
Not quite successful I have to admit but given some basic school level knowledge, Russian can be easier to understand for Poles than Ukrainian language.


Only because they want it and frankly, I am even not sure they realize how long is the way to go..
1989 we didn't either.
It's not only about economy.
It's mentality as well.
Many has changed in Poland but look at the political mess here !

She is Ukrainian, Borrka. I can safely say that she speaks it fluently. Many Poles from the older generation, yes, with the younger generation it is a matter of choice.

It depends, really. They play in European competitions and engage in bilateral agreements already. It could lead to a heated employment issue were swathes of them to go to the UK.

Again your epic lack of awareness, lets rephrase that, is conflict with Russia (not necceseraly armed) avoidable at all?


No, they're confused Poles, we need to help them up by invading them and killing them all (starting with Nathan).

Well, your lovely French partners in the EU are gonna sell them a state-of-the-art warship so why don't you ask that snake, Sarkozy?

You are treating Ukraine as a pawn and that's just not right. I was asking Borrka about the viability of accession from his perspective. If they want protection, NATO is the option for them and not the EU. YOU don't get it, Sok. Tell me, what do you know of Timoshenko in relation to Russia?

I gave my opinion about EU being a failed experiment on principle of particular interests long ago, also i have my doubts whether Russians can afford such ships.


How should i treat them then?


Ah but EU is, if it wont fail that is, bound to become a military pact as well, and much more stable then NATO, the primary military force of NATO is that of US, if United States and Europe will sour their relationship in the future NATO loses its importance, for Ukraine EU is the best long term invesment, then there's economical benefits.


She's trying to build her position on appeasing Russia, she offers concessions for which she gets domestic support from the russian and communist electorates and various benefits from Russia.

She is not however representative of Ukraine as a state or a nation, the major sentiment in Ukraine is that they want to become Polish serfs again, just ask Nathan he's itching to become a servant :)))

Well, there is a perceived need in Russia for such kind of ships. It's an expensive way to cut their response time (26 hours to 40 mins) but may be a calculated gamble.

You could start by doing a viability assessment of sorts, seeing it from their eyes.

A military pact? Geez, this isn't Warhammer! Just look at how the EU reacted to the Russo-Georgian conflict. Sending Sarkozy as a peacebroker to Russia was how they handled it, NOT militarily. You are dreaming again, with those grandiose romantic delusions of yours. Economic gain, is that all you care about?

Polish serfs again? I don't see what you envisage here at all.