Я не серджусь. Я поважаю тебе як брата. :)
I can imagine what would be the reaction if this was said by a Russian. :)
History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land.
I can imagine what would be the reaction if this was said by a Russian. :)
Easy_Terran 3 | 311
2 Dec 2009 / #62
LOL :)
Read any book on extensive Ukrainian history.
Maybe some example of such book (with hundreds of uprisings)? If you are able to provide any. Hmm? :)
Maybe some example of such book (with hundreds of uprisings)? If you are able to provide any. Hmm? :)
Mykhailo Hryshevsky "History of Ukraine-Rus'" and Orest Subtelnyj "Ukraine: A history" :)
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2133
2 Dec 2009 / #64
Thank you I will look it up
aphrodisiac 11 | 2427
3 Dec 2009 / #65
why does he have to provide any? Why don't you look sources up. Is it possible that you actually not interested of adding up to your knowledge on Ukraine because it will be not congruent with what you already think?
Nathan, why are you, of all people wasting time on trying to convince a bunch of poorly informed people to discuss anything Ukrainian. Time and again, they have proved that they are poor partners in discussion, not to mention this crazy Russian guy;). Russians are Russian. Over -blown ego with not that much substance to back it up really, unless the size of the country authomatically provides the top place in the highest rankings. What country would produce and accept Soviet regime (self - inflicted) for such a long time.
Poles are a bit different. They know that their influence in the Ukraine has been lost a long time ago, yet, they are having problems with accepting it by trying to REJECT the fact that Ukraine is a country with its own history, intelligentsia, culture and so on and downplaying its importance is just a weak point in their argument.
Nathan, why are you, of all people wasting time on trying to convince a bunch of poorly informed people to discuss anything Ukrainian. Time and again, they have proved that they are poor partners in discussion, not to mention this crazy Russian guy;). Russians are Russian. Over -blown ego with not that much substance to back it up really, unless the size of the country authomatically provides the top place in the highest rankings. What country would produce and accept Soviet regime (self - inflicted) for such a long time.
Poles are a bit different. They know that their influence in the Ukraine has been lost a long time ago, yet, they are having problems with accepting it by trying to REJECT the fact that Ukraine is a country with its own history, intelligentsia, culture and so on and downplaying its importance is just a weak point in their argument.
Mykhailo Hryshevsky "History of Ukraine-Rus'" and Orest Subtelnyj "Ukraine: A history" :)
I know Subtelnyj's book. From my knowledge, there were around 10 noted uprisings.
It was more about class struggle than about national liberation.
It is interesting to note that in 1569, on the eve of the agreement at Lublin to unite Poland and Lithuania, it was the Rus' magnates and gentry who for the most part wanted the remaining Ukrainian lands in Lithuania - Volhynia, Bratclaw, Eastern Podolia, and Kiev - to become as Galicia had previously, an integral part of Poland.
source
Regarding uprisings in the last decade of the 16th and the first half of the 17th century:
Throughout this whole period, the Cossacks never questioned the premise that they were the subject of the Polish king. In fact what they wanted was to become recognized as a distinct estate with 'its own traditional liberties' within Polish-Lithuanian society'.
source
Even Kmielnicky didn't clearly assume his role as a 'national liberator'.
Russians are Russian.
And here we have the Captain Obvious at the helm... ;)
Hm... there was something mirandish about that. :\
Easy_Terran 3 | 311
3 Dec 2009 / #68
trying to REJECT the fact that Ukraine is a country with its own history, intelligentsia, culture and so on and downplaying its importance is just a weak point in their argument.
Words of wisdom!
I guess this is why Ukraine received such a moral support* in their Orange Revolution (or whatever official translation of it is) - because the Poles reject their right to existence.
*not sure about the details, I lived at opposite corner of the world then and didn't pay much attention, know just bits and pieces
___
e_t
aphrodisiac 11 | 2427
3 Dec 2009 / #69
I guess this is why Ukraine received such a moral support* in their Orange Revolution (or whatever official translation of it is) - because the Poles reject their right to existence.
I was referring to some of posters on this board, not to the general Polish public. I was in Poland during that time and I saw the tremendous support for Ukraine. I am not sure why it was so intense, but I am guessing that Poles know what it meant to fight for their independence, the right to identity and so on. It is a basic human right as far as I know. Poles can also identify with living under the communism, imposed by the Russian regime
And here we have the Captain Obvious at the helm... ;)
Hm... there was something mirandish about that. :\
Hm... there was something mirandish about that. :\
did I touch the sensitive spot Sashenka? Russian regime killed their own people for goodness sake. Never forget that. It is like turning against your own "family". Nothing can compare to that.
did I touch the sensitive spot Sashenka?
By your provocative post where you called me "crazy" for no reason? :) Mmm... I believe you should have touched the spot of your conscience (if you have it of course).
Russian regime killed their own people for goodness sake. Never forget that. It is like turning against your own "family". Nothing can compare to that
Why are you saying that to me? and what does it have to do with this thread? Soviet regime had its own crimes and Bandera did his own.
Sashenka
Like when gals call me this way *blushing cheeks* :)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2427
3 Dec 2009 / #71
By your provocative post where you called me "crazy" for no reason? :)
that is a compliment from a Russian:). I never called YOU crazy, I was referring to a generic Russian type (does not exist in reality -but embodies all the sentiments of a Russian person all in one). The Ukrainian generic type: Banderivets, Upivets, peasant, uneducated, no free will, confused about his/her identity.
Polish generic types: believes in honor, but does not follow through, prays in a church, while gossiping about the neighbour, believes in the past glory instead of concentrating on the present etc, etc.
Russian: like to show off, does not take NO for an answer (Khrushchov comes to mind), not afraid to show his weaknesses (Jeltsyn stepping drunk out of the plain), immigrates to the West- after Pieriestroyka, loves art and literature beyond anything else, thinks that other nations are just there to serve the needs of Russia, and on and on. I am off topic now.
Why are you saying that to me? and what does it have to do with this thread? Soviet regime had its own crimes and Bandera did his own.
agree. I was talking to Nathan, not to you, so you answered at your own risk. I am off topic.
Like when gals call me this way *blushing cheeks* :)
I know;). Hard to imagine that people who speak with such an intensity and love to each other are also able to.......never mind. I made my point.
Poles are a bit different. They know that their influence in the Ukraine has been lost a long time ago, yet, they are having problems with accepting it by trying to REJECT the fact that Ukraine is a country with its own history,
False.
A huge majority of Poles don't care about history and their main achievement on the field of the Polish - Ukrainian relationship is awareness of the Ukrainian presence in European politics.
The last statement is not arrogant.
It reflects the true situation - for the post ww2 generation Ukraine was just a part of the Soviet Union.
Ukrainian history (in both Polish and Ukrainian versions) is some ridiculous conglomerate of myths, wishful thinking and to lesser extend ... facts.
Ukrainian version: starting deep in the history with Goths and Vikings, then never ending rebellions for national freedom against Poles and later Russians.
Of course the favorite occupation of Poles were impaling, rape and burning their own villages and cites (constructed by talented Ukrainians)lol.
All oppressors with no exception were Polish catholics or later Muscovites.
Rusins (Ukrainians) were freedom fighters like Gonta or Zhelesnyak or Pylyp Orlyk who wrote the first state constitutions in Europe.
Polish version: noble Polish pans brought civilization to stone age people in the East (still dwelling in their cavern ). Ungrateful Ukrainians rebelled until they destroyed the only democratic republic in Europe.
Less sophisticated version includes as a national Ukrainian hero Alexandr Domogarov from Moscow who played Bohun in Polish movie "With fire and sword".
Both parts have some problems with Bohdan Chmelnicki who "sold" Ukraine to the Russian czar.
Both parts have some problems with Bohdan Chmelnicki who "sold" Ukraine to the Russian czar.
Nobody sold anything. Bodya signed a military pact about joined fight against RP, which Russians as always turned it into something else and what is more important - the document which had 2 copies - one of which was taken back to Moskovia, mysteriosly disappeared and only mythical suggestions of what it was about was created by following tzars and later Soviet regime. Bohdan Chmelnyc'kyj made quite a few strategical mistakes in his life, but nevertheless he is and will be respected as a national hero.
Porzeczka, registered Cossacks and those who created Zaporhiz'ku Sich were people of different attitudes and points of view. These never recognized a king to be their superior. Even Hetman was chosen by them and could have been taken down anytime if he did anything wrong. Their own policy regarding Ottoman empire, constant fights against the whole spectrum of RP society in the 17th century,own court and executive system, language, religion etc. puts them far away to be considered as some subjects of some far-remote king Horoh :)
Polish version: noble Polish pans brought civilization to stone age people in the East (still dwelling in their cavern ).
No, on the wild stepps. The rest is correct.
Bodya signed a military pact about joined fight against RP
Nathan, according to my knowledge the Pereyeslav Treaty declared protection of the Cossack state by the czar.
Even if it is a matter of controversy Chmelnitsky started 1654 a dangerous play with Moscow with some disastrous consequences for both, Ukraine and Poland.
Some years ago I used to discuss with Ukrainians from the old UNA/UNSO board (it was closed because of permanent web-brigades' attacks).
In spite of many controversies we were able to agree on Bohdan Chmelnitsky role in the history:
Talented, charismatic politician and leader but hardly successful national hero.
Hardly a real hero just because of the Pereyeslav Treaty !
Interesting that you are "protecting" him.
337 years of Russian "protection" is that enough to call him a hero ?
Porzeczka, registered Cossacks and those who created Zaporhiz'ku Sich were people of different attitudes and points of view.
That reminds me of one of my favorite paintings:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reply_of_the_Zaporozhian_Cossacks
Torq
3 Dec 2009 / #77
Zaporozhian Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan!
LMFAO
And Nathan is telling me that Ukrainians are not Poles. OF COURSE THEY ARE! :-)
Oh Torq, maybe it's just a conspiracy ?
They simple don't want to let Kremlin know about that.
They simple don't want to let Kremlin know about that.
Torq
3 Dec 2009 / #79
Nah, they are well able to write a letter to Kremlin as well, if need be :)
And Nathan is telling me that Ukrainians are not Poles. OF COURSE THEY ARE! :-)
Hm... :) In Slavic (in Ukrainian in this particular case) it's a lot funnier. :)) too bad you can't read cyrillic. Oh... here we go:
Zaporoscy Kozacy do sułtana tureckiego! Ty, sułtanie, diable turecki, przeklętego diabła bracie i towarzyszu, samego Lucyfera sekretarzu. Jaki z Ciebie do diabła rycerz, jeśli nie umiesz gołą dupą jeża zabić. Twoje wojsko zjada czarcie gówno. Nie będziesz Ty, sukin Ty synu, synów chrześcijańskiej ziemi pod sobą mieć, walczyć będziemy z Tobą ziemią i wodą, kurwa Twoja mać. Kucharzu Ty babiloński, kołodzieju macedoński, piwowarze jerozolimski, garbarzu aleksandryjski, świński pastuchu Wielkiego i Małego Egiptu, świnio armeńska, podolski złodziejaszku, kołczanie tatarski, kacie kamieniecki i błaźnie dla wszystkiego co na ziemi i pod ziemią, szatańskiego węża potomku i chuju zagięty. Świński Ty ryju, kobyli zadzie, psie rzeźnika, niechrzczony łbie, kurwa Twoja mać.
O tak Ci Kozacy zaporoscy odpowiadają, plugawcze. Nie będziesz Ty nawet naszych świń wypasać. Teraz kończymy, daty nie znamy, bo kalendarza nie mamy, miesiąc na niebie, a rok w księgach zapisany, a dzień u nas taki jak i u was, za co możecie w dupę pocałować nas!
O tak Ci Kozacy zaporoscy odpowiadają, plugawcze. Nie będziesz Ty nawet naszych świń wypasać. Teraz kończymy, daty nie znamy, bo kalendarza nie mamy, miesiąc na niebie, a rok w księgach zapisany, a dzień u nas taki jak i u was, za co możecie w dupę pocałować nas!
This should work better... :)
No, Nathan is not Polish... :\
Torq
3 Dec 2009 / #81
Cheers, Sasha! :)
The letter is a masterpiece. Why can't all diplomatic correspondence be conducted this way?
It would be much more entertaining :)
The letter is a masterpiece. Why can't all diplomatic correspondence be conducted this way?
It would be much more entertaining :)
It would be much more entertaining :)
...and less hypocritical. :)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2427
3 Dec 2009 / #83
[quote=Torq]The letter is a masterpiece. Why can't all diplomatic correspondence be conducted this way?
It was NOT suppose to be diplomatic. I am glad that you have mastered the use of WIKI;)
It was NOT suppose to be diplomatic. I am glad that you have mastered the use of WIKI;)
Torq
3 Dec 2009 / #84
I am sorry you haven't mastered the use of the "quote" option ;)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2427
3 Dec 2009 / #85
I have, but I reserve for the "worthy" ;).
Nathan, according to my knowledge the Pereyeslav Treaty declared protection of the Cossack state by the czar.
The original copies of the treaty did not survive, and the exact nature of the relationship stipulated by this treaty between Ukraine and Russia is a matter of scholarly controversy.
As you can imagine why such precious for Russians document didn't survive. Simple explanation: Pereyaslav treaty was nothing else but a pact about cooperation between Cossacks and Moskovy. They obviously needed to make an elephant out of nothing to later make retarded demands. Just for a simple example Swedish army managed to get Chmelnickyj banner while their stay in Warsaw (taken from Berestechko battlefield) and it is now in Stockholm Armemuseum. The same pertains to bulava (maze of power in Cossacks). So some remote army was interested in taking an almost completely burnt banner from a battlefield and save it till now! while Russians didn't save a copy of this so important treaty?! Strange, isn't it?
Hey, I don't defend Chmelnickyj. He made many mistakes. One of them is staying at Zamosc pointlessly, instead of crushing Poland completely. Poland lay naked in front of him. Well, he thought that Polish king won't interfere with him as a hetman of Ukraine. Why? It would have released some tension among our nations into the future generations :)
Khmelnytsky had his forces join a peasant revolt at the Battle of Pyliavtsi, striking another terrible blow to weakened and depleted Polish forces.
Khmelnytsky was persuaded not to lay siege to Lviv in exchange for 200,000 red guldens. He then rested in Zamość, awaiting the election of a new Polish King. Assured that John Casimir II would not interfere with his designs on Ruthenia, Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kiev on Christmas Day of 1648.
Khmelnytsky was persuaded not to lay siege to Lviv in exchange for 200,000 red guldens. He then rested in Zamość, awaiting the election of a new Polish King. Assured that John Casimir II would not interfere with his designs on Ruthenia, Khmelnytsky made a triumphant entry into Kiev on Christmas Day of 1648.
Nonetheless, he is regarded as a Ukrainian hero and a great army commander who brought many military victories and in his name there is (if I am not mistaken) the highest military order of Ukraine.
Cheers.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2133
4 Dec 2009 / #87
the day's the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our arse!
All of the text and especially the last part made me think of Beck...
Torq I think you got something right!
Really Ukrainians east of Kiev and in Crimea do feel Russians.And in Dnipro and Donetsk they don't even speak Ukrainian.It was funny when the e
bassy gave them papers to complete in Ukrainian and they could not understand what was written on them.
bassy gave them papers to complete in Ukrainian and they could not understand what was written on them.
Really Ukrainians east of Kiev and in Crimea do feel Russians.
Not true at all.
There are about 19 - 20% ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and I do believe they feel Russians.
Why shouldn't they ?
Many Ukrainians are Russian speaking or bilingual and except for some "sovoks" they are quite patriotic in sens of Ukrainian patriotism.
Using the language doesn't make them Russians.
You can see the same situation in Ireland, Finland., South-America etc.
I've heard the same as southern says, Borrka. An ex of my friend is from the eastern part of Ukraine and she said that many people speak Russian and have Russian empathy there. Quite far east of Kiev I'd say.