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Ancient Polish History thread

celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 Dec 2007 /  #61
Thank you all for the fantastic information and pictures. I wanted to ask as you watch this if you see any information that you don't aggree with if you can tell me? Early Poland I have not studied as much and this is why I ask? Thank you and enjoy.

Carol /USA

Historia Polski History of Poland

Yes, it is the same as above by, Piorun if you watch it already. Thanks, Carol
valkyrie - | 7  
4 Dec 2007 /  #62
I say, we are capable for big bussines

I agree, very capable! I read this book. 'The polish way.'' A thousand year history of poles and their culture. By Adam Zamoyski. Does any one have an opinion on this book? Interesting stuff written above.
Crow 148 | 9,393  
19 Dec 2007 /  #63
For example, by practicing a religion formulated in the Middle East, Greece and the Roman Empire.

If you follow PCT (Paleolithic Continuity Theory), by Mario Alinei and newest genetic/archaeological (scientific) foundings you would found that you have new questions in front of you:

1. Were Slavs formed as unique ethos (culturally, linguistically, religiously, ...) before they settled on Balkan/Danube, after Ice Age was finished? or

2. Were Slavs formed as unique ethos (culturally, linguistically, religiously) later, thru evolution of primordial (es, if) European population which settled on Balkan/Danube, after Ice Age was finished?

Here, we speak about events which happened even 25000 years ago. Maybe even deeper in past. So Osiol, try to insert your comment in that dimension.

How much of the Russian population descend from Finno-Ugric peoples?

Before any conclusion and, considering common origin of Slavs it would be wise that during exploration thru Polish past, we also examine some facts in case with other Slavic ethoses. In this particular case, i would present some newest scientific foundings in case with Russians...

Excavation Finds Earliest Europeans in Russia 45,000 Years Ago


New evidence indicates that Russians were among the earliest Europeans, if not the earliest. Prehistoric teeth and tools excavated from the banks of the Don River show that modern humans arrived in northeastern Europe about 45,000 years ago, earlier than they moved into the west. VOA's David McAlary tells us that the discovery changes ideas about how humans reached Europe after they left their place of origin, Africa.

Although the oldest evidence of modern humans comes from Australia about 50,000 years ago, the Don River discovery is roughly the same age, or even earlier than similar ones in south central and western Europe. "For Europe, this is as early as it gets," he said.

Russian Archaeologists Discover Remains of Ancient Chieftain in Altai Permafrost


Russian archaeologists have uncovered the 2000-year-old remains of a warrior preserved intact in permafrost in the Altai mountains region, the Rossiiskaya Gazeta daily reported.

The warrior was blond had tattoos on his body. He was wearing a felt coat with sable fur trimmings and was buried in a wooden frame containing drawings of mythological creatures with an icepick beside him, the paper said.

If language is a sign of hereditary origin, how come the population of Ireland speak mostly English?

We already had opportunity to see here some linguistic conclusions in case with comparison between old Celtic, modern day Irish language and Slavic languages (particularly Polish).

Let`s continue to investigate before any conclusion. I myself seek for many answers

The History of Ireland

Pre Christian History

In earliest days the mysterious Tuatha De Danann , mysterious god like warriors with magical powers roamed Ireland along with their servants the Firbolgs and their sea going henchmen the Formorians. By the sixth century BC they had disappeared , probably annihilated by King Milesius and his forces from Spain. In about 350BC the Celts, who had marched across Europe came to a halt in Ireland, the western most outpost and from the 1st century AD the gaels started to emerge, having adopted the myths, genes and lifestyles of all those who had come before them. Gaelic culture was set to become a integral part of Irish history from then until the modern day and formed moulded Ireland into the nation it is now.

Any ideas?
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699  
22 Dec 2007 /  #64
by Sergei V. Rjabchikov

ok, intrepretations of Ancient history.. this I am having time understanding how
these came about.. was it written on /in old books? how do we really know
what is said is what is on these old scriptures..

im doubtful on certain things.. I feel like we are jumping back and forth in some
subjects.. like the theorys of revolution.. so how do we really know??

are these factual documents that actually show writings? a document from 966
wouldnt be in the greatest of shape.. especially after all the wars and fires..

but I do realize a great deal of importance goes into the studies of all history/historical
events and great deal into retrieving data to stablize and further conclude truth to
each event .
Crow 148 | 9,393  
24 Dec 2007 /  #65
I feel like we are jumping back and forth in some
subjects.. like the theorys of revolution.. so how do we really know??

In case with your dilemmas...

The Venetians - our early Ancestors
by Ivan Kobal
Source link:

History, unlike mathematics, is an imperfect science and can never be complete or totally impartial.

Facts are denied, distorted, ignored, forgotten. History is often written long after the denials, the distortions, the memories of events and their consequences have disappeared. When the bare facts of the past resurface like fossilized plants or prehistoric animals, the expert historian is there to draw conclusions.

Such conclusions are often incompatible with accepted traditions and beliefs, and it takes all the skill of the historian to convince the conservative scholars that their beliefs are being proved wrong.

One more important fragment ...

The German version of the book, "Unsere Vorfahren die Veneter", caused a stir among German historians and history teachers, so did in Italy and elsewhere the Italian edition, "I VENETI, progenitori dell'uomo Europeo". In Slovenia, the book was not welcome at first and the old school of scholars, who for centuries maintained that all the Southern Slavs, including the Slovenians, migrated in mass from the region of the Carpathian Mountains in the 6th century AD, tried to ignore it. But the bug didn't go away and the controversy is now raging unabated.

I would now elaborate my position on situation in case with examination of Slavic past. To underline- same conclusions goes also for particular situation in case with examination/re-examination of Polish ancient history ...

If we want to understand some historical processes, we should examine as much as possible new scientific sources and materials based on transhistorical orientation and multidisciplinary approach which accepts results that are so far realized and which ignore dogmatic and daily-political limits, and taking into consideration all new efforts based on strictly scientific laws with the goal of shedding new light on old Slavic civilization and true meaning of her contribution to development of universal civilization.

Affirmation of newest research results is inevitable, because new scientific approach includes consultations with multidisciplinary experts (archeology, linguistics, mathematics, anthropology, ethnology, history- from aspect of many scientific branches, geography, arts, physics, genetics, climatology ...).

Theories that have so far been put forward, including all the consequences they brought, didn't gave correct answer on crucial questions from Slavic - Proto Slavic - Indo European past.

We need to penetrate into new sources and reveal the true ones- scientifically established but rejected hidden truths that could give a batter image on the development and evolution of Paleo/Proto Slavic civilization.

by Sergei V. Rjabchikov

after reading Rjabchikov, I would also suggest you to see works of some Slovenian authors (on the same link from above)

The Veneti
Wenden, Winden, Windische
by Dr. Jožko Šavli

A mysterious people, whose traces we encounter in the nomenclature and in the customs throughout Germany as well as in nearby countries. Their name reflects also the form of the present-day linguistic groups like Wenden (Sorben of Lusatia), Winden (Kashubi of Pomerania) or Windische (Slovenians) and also Veneti (in Veneto, Italy). Their traces are to be found in all territories between the Baltic and the Adriatic Sea, where today different nations live. Who were the Veneti?

many inscriptions in Venetian writing appeared around 500 BC. Numerous examples of these inscriptions are conserved until today, and it is a very important fact, that the Slovene linguist Matej Bor was able to decipher many of them on the basis of the Slovenian and other Slav languages.




L Y K Z (e) M E L I N K(o) S H A J I C O S K A B (i)

Then, on the same link, real gift for all those who seek to explore thru time (open-mindedly) ...

Found: Europe's oldest civilisation
11 June 2005

By courtesy of our reader, who forwarded the article to Carantha
Our question is: Did it pertain to the Vends?

Archaeologists have discovered Europe's oldest civilisation, a network of dozens of temples, 2,000 years older than Stonehenge and the Pyramids. More than 150 gigantic monuments have been located beneath the fields and cities of modern-day Germany, Austria and Slovakia. They were built 7,000 years ago, between 4800 BC and 4600 BC. Their discovery, revealed today by The Independent, will revolutionise the study of prehistoric Europe, where an appetite for monumental architecture was thought to have developed later than in Mesopotamia and Egypt.

A settlement of the Band Ceramic people. In the background we see part of a typical longhouse. (The illustration has been taken from the book: Frühe Geschichte der Lausitz by Lech Leciejewicz, 1985).

The Slovieni
A Venetic Stock in Russia
by Dr. Jožko Šavli

They were the founders of the Slovenia there, which later was called »The Republic of Novgorod« The discovery of common roots represents a new base of friendship between Russians and Slovenians

The well-known Russian chronicler Nestor mentions the appearance of the Slovieni race among the first Russian tribes in his "Povest' vremennych let" (11th/12th century AD). According to Nestor, they settled around the Ilmen Lake south of Sankt Petersburg, and founded the city of Novgorod. - It is certain, that the Slovieni of this area came from elsewhere. But Nestor does not state, where did they migrate from and when did this happen. Therefore, several scholars researched their primordial homeland, and they are still doing so.

The early settlement area of the Slovieni (Russia)

The Slovieni (Russia)

Tacitus, it is true, indirectly quotes the settlement of a group of Veneti in the then Finnic territory. That this group was called Veneti in the West is evidenced by the following facts: Still in the 16th century, on a carta marina, elaborated by Olaus Magnus, the Finnic Gulf is denoted as: Mare Finonicvm sive Sinvs Venedicvs. The Sinvs Venedicvs (Venetic Gulf) could only have been named after the Slovieni (Novgorod), at that time already subjected to the supremacy of Moscow.

Slovensk (Novgovord) in the 1st century AD (reconstruction).
The settlement was composed of wooden houses.

View on medieval Novgorod and the city plan, indicating the Slovenski konec with the Slovenski holm (Slovenian hill)

On the same link, you would found interesting approach in case with some historical controversies, which by some authors could be in connection with ancient Slavic past, with that indirectly, with Polish too.

Alexander the Great

356 - 323 BC
Was he a Venet?
The Macedonian question
by Dr. Jožko Šavli

Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BC)


The discovery of the Veneti re-opened anew the question of the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians. In this connection, Charles Bryant-Abraham recorded Alexander the Great (356 - 323 BC), King of Macedonia and Greece, who, at a gathering admonished one of his men, Philotas by name, to talk in his mother tongue and not in Greek (cf. The Augustan, Vol. XXXI, Nr. 3, Daggett, Calif. 1999, p. 21). His mother tongue could have been only Macedonian, which evidently was different from Greek.

Yet, to which linguistic group pertained the then Macedonian language? I would say, we find a reliable answer in the inscriptions of Dura-Europos, deciphered by Anthony Ambrozic (cf. his book on "Adieu to Brittany", Toronto 1999, p. 74 ff.). He deciphered inscriptions based on the language, which I call Venetic, from which the Slav languages descended.

In my researches concerning the Veneti, I found out, that in the pre-Roman period several peoples spoke nearly the same language: Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, continental Celts, very probably also Phrygians,... But they were not of Venetic origin. Anyway, with regard to the Macedonians, an important indication of their Venetic origin is the quotation of Herodotos (ca. 480 - 425 BC), who also mentioned the presence of the Veneti in the Illyricum (I, 196), i.e., in the Balkans. But where was the territory of their settlement?

Pella, north of Salonika, was the capital of Alexander the Great and of Macedonia. In the South it bordered on Thessaly, where still today the names Venetikos and Veneton bear witness of the Venetic origin of the Macedonian people

Dionysus riding the Panther (Pella, mosaic of ca. 300 BC). The panther (leopard) was a divine animal in the suite of several divinities already in the antiquity
Jooma 1 | 23  
25 Dec 2007 /  #66
Look for the ancient slavonic, Sobotka (near Wroclaw) monuments. Much older than Biskupin. I have seen them years ago and I wonder if they are somehow protected.
Crow 148 | 9,393  
26 Dec 2007 /  #67
I always was curious to explore thru Viking-Slavic connections

Now, I can remind myself that as a little child I thought about Vikings as about some loud speaking people (connecting their name with Serbian word Vikati=loudly speak, bawling, to cry or Vikati=to make an outcry). Well, don't blame me for my imagination when even in the movies Vikings were represented as loudly speaking/screaming warriors with unique war cry.

This approach in explanation of meaning of words/ethnic names is childish as I would like to underline but anyway, some place/river names, on today's non-Slavic West and North of Europe often sounded me as very Slavic and I would like to share my childish experience on that.

For example, long time of my childhood I was sure that Glasgow is some town in Poland or Russia and I was very surprised to found out about Glasgow on British islands. Or take name of Gauls (Gali/Goli- how it sound in Serbian) in consideration. Do you know what word Goli mean on Serbian? It mean exactly `naked`, so Gali were naked warriors and that's exactly how they were remembered in history. From Serbian history during Turkish occupation we know that rebel warriors in time of Voivode Sindjelic were called Golaci (Golaći- srb.) and even more you would be surprised why Serbian peasants called them Golaci. That name designated that they were warriors faced with overwhelming foes (Turks). Term Golaci referring here on poor, bad armed/equipped man, with even bad clothes- in comparison with his enemy but, man still willing to fight/resist. When you translate how name of Celts (Kelti, Selti) sound on Serbian you would understand that when one say Selt he maybe referring on some nomad, so on nomadic tribes. Hm, listen now this... word/ethnic name of Scythians is by analogy on Serbian almost same as word Celt (Selt) with meaning Vagabond, Vagrant, also Nomad. We know that old chronicles and modern science consider Scythians and Sarmatians as two kin ethoses. But, this examination suddenly isn't just funny but also becoming interesting, if we know that modern linguistic science confirmed that name of Sarmatians stay in close correlation with modern day Serbian/Sorbian name and that name of Sarmatian represent some form of Serbian name which went thru Greek/Latin transcription. Sarmatian name is considered to be as one of universal Slavic names which existed in history. Traces of that universal Slavic name survived on Balkan, in Lusatia, in Siberia, in Poland, in Czeska thru form of Boii (Serboi) name, in Croatia (Sarmatia >Carmatia >Croatia >Hrvatia >Hrvatska). And, again Boii are registered as Celts/Selts and becoming clear how Celtic tribe Scordiscs were able to be foundators of Balkan Serbian Capitol town Belgrade (White town- srb.). BDW, it is said that Gouls were branch of Celts, kin ethos to them. Then, following Sarmatian name we becoming aware that ancient Aryans were kin ethos to Sarmatians/branch of Sarmatians. Again, we are fascinated with deep connections if take in consideration name of Rg Vedic Srbinda- only ancient ethnic name from Veda`s which still exist as ethic name, inside of Slavic corpus (we see that again as trace of once universal Slavic name).

Or should I say that some linguists connected name of Spartacus (Spartak- leader of rebelled Roman slaves) with ethic name of Sarmatians. Then, things again becoming interesting when we know that great majority of slaves under his command was of Celtic and Dacian origin and they considered him as his brother and so he was able to be their leader. Now, guess from where originated Spartak? From Bulgarian part of Trachia, he was Trachian. It is also indicative that on the western parts of Europe word slave stay in connection with Slav (coming from name of ethnic Slavs- scientifically confirmed) and words servant/serf stay in connection with Serb (remind yourself on Serbian-Sorbian line from Balkan to Baltic which we see as scattered/enslaved today). There was also ancient ethic name of Sporadi, which was in focus of analyzes of Slovak historian Konstantin Jiricek who concluded that name must be connected with some form of archaic Sarmatian name. Etc, etc, etc... So, we are again and again in the same ethnic/linguistic circle, no matter that we traveled thru time and thru vast and huge geographical space. Thru almost same territory where we even (still) today can found Slavs. We see that even Slavic child know that Slavs are on their own. Imagine then how one serious historian can be sure in that fact, having available old chronicles and newest archaeological, ethnological, genetic, climatic, ... foundings.

All in all, today, modern science seriously re-examining Slavic and complete Europoid past .

on Slavic - Viking - Varangian connections


The Varangians in Russia

Even though some historians emphasize folklore roots for the Rurik legend and consequently dismiss Rurik as a legendary figure, there is a controversy about his ethnic origins in Eastern Europe.

According to the Primary Chronicle Rurik was one of the Rus, a Varangian tribe likened by the chronicler to Danes, Swedes, English and Gotlanders. In the 20th century, archaeologists partly corroborated the chronicle's version of events.

The runes ruRikr representing the Old Norse name Hrœrekr on the Viking Age runestone U 413 in the church of Norrsunda, Uppland, Sweden.

Rurik with brothers
Approximate extent of the earliest Russian state in the 8th century
Ladoga (Aldeigjuborg in Old Norse), founded in the mid-8th century on the river Volkhov close to the lake Ladoga, was the earliest Russian capital

Later the capital was moved up the Volkhov to Novgorod (Holmgard in Old Norse), near the lake Ilmen

The favorite Russian musical instrument was the gusli, similar to the Serbian gusle. Here is a genuine Russian gusli of the mid-11th century

Russian gusli is a stringed instrument. 14th century miniatures showing the helmet-form gusli and how it was played
Polson 5 | 1,770  
26 Dec 2007 /  #68
Yeah i find the connections between Vikings and Slavs very interesting too ;)
More particularly between Poles and Vikings (there were quite close, geographically, from each other).

One of the greatest "Viking" kings was Knut II. His mother is supposed to be Polish, a Polish princess. He ruled over Denmark, Norway, England and i think Sweden too...

Among the Viking sailors, it is said there were some Poles. Poles at that time were known for being good sailors, warriors...The Vikings discovered America in 1000, these Vikings may, for some of them, be Polish.

Poles and Vikings have always had good relationships.


Crow 148 | 9,393  
30 Dec 2007 /  #69
On Viking - Western Slavic contacts

Seams that Vikings had intensive contacts with all Slavs on Baltic (not only with Slavs). They had contacts with Poles, Northern Serbs/Sorbs- Lusatians (known as Vends, even today), Pomerans...

Canute the Great


Burizleif, the king of the Vinds, complained to his relation Earl
Sigvalde, that the agreement was broken which Sigvalde had made
between King Svein and King Burizleif

More on Polish - Viking relationships

Swietoslawa - Piast Princess & Viking's Queen - Polish Culture

Few more interesting pics on Russian - Viking theme

In the Viking Age, and throughout the Middle Ages, wood dominated in the Russian architecture. The material was used to build rather complicated structures.

This style of wooden carving lived on in the stone decoration of Russian churches in the 12th and 13th centuries

...speaking about controversial Slavic issues from past...

I mentioned this already but, never elaborated topic completely:

King Arthur Pendragon was a Slav !?!? Is this possible?
[and to add question- From where were Sarmatian knights, loyal friends or Arcturus... Boras, Tristan, Batraz, etc.?]

If answer on those questions could be positive we can say that Slavic heritage affected history of western parts of Europe more then we are aware now and much more than some other people are ready to admit.

In this particular case we speak about people of British islands and their possible connections with Slavic world in Second Century AD.

Historical basis for King Arthur

Lucius Artorius Castus

Writers such as Kemp Malone, C. Scott Littleton, Ann Thomas and Linda A. Malcor suggest that King Arthur should be identified as one Lucius Artorius Castus

Sarmatian connection

In 1978, C. Scott Littleton and Ann C. Thomas expanded on the ideas of Vasily Abaev and Georges Dumezil and published their theory of a connection between the Sarmatian people and the history and later legend of King Arthur.

The culture of the Sarmatians is also relevant to the legends of Arthur. Apart from their skill as armoured knights, they held great, near religious, fondness for their swords

Historian: King Arthur Was From Russia

a new book adds another twist by saying that much of the legend of King Arthur may come from a band of nomadic tribes whose descendants now live in southern Russia.

What's all this about King Arthur being a Russian?

Two Arthurian historians, C Scott Littleton and Linda Malcor, have claimed that a Roman general Lucius Artorius Castus, who commanded a group of Sarmatian cavalrymen, was the real King Arthur.

...There are dragon symbols everywhere, from Welsh mythology and Beowulf to the Old Testament.'

Genetics about it...

Researching Strong(e)s and Strang(e)s in Britain and Ireland; 2nd Edition (Rootsweb)


Sarmatian horseman. Drawing by Michail Gorelik
Reivers In Full Regalia
Racowie, of Polish Winged Cavalry

Few selected quotations, to give you picture...

During the reign of Marcus Aurelius, the Sarmatians became dangerous again. Other groups had joined the federation (e.g., the Alans), and the Romans had to fight several bloody wars against the Sarmatians and their allies

In the early fourth century, the Roman emperor Diocletian resettled the Iazyges, and his successor Constantine accepted manySarmatians as farmers on the Balkans. Those who remained north of the Danube, were destroyed by the Huns.

We have tried to put the available DNA findings from various Surname Studies in a meaningful historical context. We have tried to avoid a simple surmise that one group are "Celts", and another group are "Vikings"

Władysław II Jagiełło


Władysław II Jagiełło by Jan Matejko

King of Poland

Equestrian statue of Wladyslaw II Jagiello, Central Park, New York

Battle of Grunwald, 1410. Painting by Jan Matejko

Jogaila was the last pagan ruler of medieval Lithuania. He held the title Didysis Kunigaikštis.[5] As King of Poland, he pursued a policy of close alliances with Lithuania against the Teutonic Order.

Lithuania and Poland, ca. 1400.


Maria Skłodowska-Curie


* Discovery of Polonium and Radium
* Nobel Prize for Physics
* Davy Medal (1903)
* Matteucci Medal (1904)
* Nobel Prize for Chemistry (1911)

Marie Curie

While an actively loyal French citizen, she never lost her sense of Polish identity. Madame Curie named the first new chemical element that she discovered polonium for her native country.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699  
9 Jan 2008 /  #70
Crow this is so true its the knife that cut the cake.

Every version of history is distorted. told the way the person seen it, and each time
it was told it became more exzaggerated,twisted differently from the account told.

and the other nations who told their side ( as much truth as it was) became distorted
also .. I agree with this wholeheartedly...

this discussion has surfaced before , but until now, its true form hasnt really been
debated. and I thank you for Pointing out what I already believed..

and Im not saying I dont believe in history, I just dont believe all the history told
is the true concrete vision that was originally recorded..thats why I dont know/
understand why so many fight over whos the winner in all these battles when
truthfully, no one wins when theirs war..

lately, Ive realised this more and more in other things.
Crow 148 | 9,393  
10 Jan 2008 /  #71
Slavic King Svatopluk I of Great Moravia

A historical representation of King Svatopluk I

The papal bull Industriae Tuae addressed to Svatopluk I

Great Moravia

Map of Great Moravia at its greatest territorial extent during the reign of Svatopluk I (871-894), superimposed on the modern borders of European states

Great Moravia was an empire existing in Central Europe between 833 and the early 10th century......

To say in short, Great Moravia was streched from the Morava river in Moravia/Slovakia, to the Great Morava river in Serbia and her influence reached Slavic territories from Balkan to Baltic, from Adriatic to the Black see, from that what is today Northern Italy to the Ukrainian and Belorussian steppes.

Legend of Svatopluk's twigs

Svatopluk holding three twigs

It says that the powerful Great Moravian king Svatopluk asked his sons to come to him before his death. He gave a twig to each of them and asked them to break it.

Svatopluk I with three twigs according legend of Svatopluk's twigs and his three sons Mojmír II, Svatopluk II and Predstav

While we can`t be sure 100% in case with exact events described in this legend, we remembered Great Moravia. Scientific fact is that Great Moravia and Svatopluk I with his sons existed. Anyway, we can even today learn a lot of from both- from examination of Great Moravia, the last ancient united Slavic Kingdom and from legend about Svatopluk I and his sons. I personally, believe in legend.

After King`s death, Great Moravia was divided among the three brothers in 894 in spite of their father's warning. The country, weakened by wars with Romans and Teutons, was destroyed in 907 by a combined Teuton (German)-Hun attack.

Did you know?

...that Russian Empresses, Catherine II of Arihalt-Zerbst wasn`t of German but of Slavic origin

Catherine II of Russia

Early life

FISZ 24 | 2,116  
10 Jan 2008 /  #72
The Biskupin site is a fortified settlement in Poland and, belonging to the Lausitz (Late Bronze age) and Hallstatt C (Early Iron age) cultures

It wasn't only from the bronze and iron age. On the same property there are camp remains from the Neolithic Age.

It's a great place to visit and it was interesting to learn about how they warshipped a 4 headed god "Światowid" :)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
11 Jan 2008 /  #73
Like I wrote before after Krzywousty had died in 1138, Poland was divided into five principalities: Silesia, Greater Poland, Mazovia, Sandomierz land and Kraków. The first four provinces were given to his four sons, who became independent rulers. The fifth (Kraków) was added to the senior among the Princes who, as the Grand Duke of Kraków, was the representative of the whole of Poland. This is the beggining of a period of fragmentation (rozbicie dzielnicowe).

Władysław II Wygnaniec became the first senior and also got Silesia. Mazovia was given to Bolesław IV Kędzierzawy, Greater Poland to Mieszko Stary, Ziemia Sandomierska to Henryk Sandomierski, also a widow (2nd wife of Krzywousty) got her own area - £ęczyca-Sandomierz land.

Władysław II Wygnaniec (1105-1159)

Bolesław IV Kędzierzawy (1120-1173)

Mieszko III Stary (1122-1202)

Henryk Sandomierski (1130-1166)
Crow 148 | 9,393  
12 Jan 2008 /  #74
history is distorted.

It`s because regularly winners write the history and speaking about Slavic history in general (or if you want, particularly about Polish), considering that Slavs/Poles often were in retreat, others written history for them and their children.

It is well known fact that authors from western parts of Europe (especially German scholars) used to call Indo-Europeans `Indo-Germanics`. But, due to pressure of progressive people in scientific world that `construction` is practically abandoned.

Or, another example. Today`s Germans still insist that Germanics (Germania) are ancestors (ancestral land) of today`s Germans (Germany), no matter that it is well known that Germania was region populated with autohtonous Slavs and that term Germania coming from the name of Roman provinces, Germania Inferior - Germania Superior.

this discussion has surfaced before , but until now, its true form hasnt really been
debated. and I thank you for Pointing out what I already believed..

yes, until now. I look forward to exchange my views with you and with all others who seek, who are open-minded

That`s the one of key reasons for i have come to this brotherly Polish forum

Pat, see this...

Still, students in schools throughout the world must pass examinations on theories that scientists themselves admit are unproven. Why? The answer is that a theory is accepted not on the grounds of its certitude, but on the grounds that nobody has yet disproved it. 'The best anyone can say of a theory is that it has not been disproved.' (Ferguson, 1994:26) This principle forms the basis of modern scientific knowledge. This same principle, ironically, is considered a fallacy in classical philosophy: argumentum ad ignorantium, the fallacy of argument from ignorance. An argument that says something is true because nobody has proved it false, or that something is false because nobody has proved it true, is held to be invalid according to this rule of fallacy.

Source: Suhotra Swami, Doubt and Certainty In Krishna Consciousness


Great pic... that with flag and roots in the ground. It very well describing fact that Poles are autohtonus (native) people, on their own. All Slavs should remember that are natives and should refuse that somebody impose inferiority complexes on them.

I salute you

4 headed god "Światowid" :)

When you mentioned Svetovid :) ...

It is quite interesting to me that Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland- Jogaila or Władysław II Jagiełło (b. about 1362 d. 1 June 1434) was `the last pagan ruler of medieval Lithuania.` [see on previous page]

Presumed image of Jogaila, painted c. 1475-80, Kraków, Poland

I`m interested to found out how that great man managed to preserve faith of his ancestors. How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him? Any comment about it? Anyone? Christianity in general, nor Orthodox, nor Catholic Churches wasn`t too much tolerant on pagans (people of old faith). On the contrary. Just, sometimes, we can found examples of religious tolerance.
southern 75 | 7,096  
12 Jan 2008 /  #75
I`m interested to found out how that great man managed to preserve faith of his ancestors. How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him? Any comment about it

Ask better how he treated christian priests.
Crow 148 | 9,393  
12 Jan 2008 /  #76
Ask better how he treated christian priests.

How then?
southern 75 | 7,096  
12 Jan 2008 /  #77
Not very subtle for sure.Basically all churches turned to tembles for the gods of the rivers and lakes.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
12 Jan 2008 /  #78
How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him?

Obviously he had to convert before he became the king.
Crow 148 | 9,393  
12 Jan 2008 /  #79
Crow wrote:
How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him?

Obviously he had to convert before he became the king.

Yes, on the end he accepted Christianity but in 1386 `was baptized as Władysław` (as it is said on the link). Before that he already was ruler.

Obviously, as you point, he taken Christianity to secure his status of monarch or to say using modern terminology- to become `internationally recognized`, to be `politically correct`, `to survive- in any sense` (as, if we could say it that way? But why couldn`t we?)

There are many similar examples from history.

Members of Serbian Nemanjic`s noble house (what was ancestral house of Polish Queen Jadviga) also were forced to, due to political reasons take Christianity, at first Catholicism and then Orthodoxy. Then, as compromise, they firstly received royal status with blessing of Roman Pope and then just after that from Byzantium. Anyway, that compromise didn`t save- nor them, nor Balkan Serbs in general (nor Orthodox, nor Catholic Serbs). We paid dearly rivalry between Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Then plus Islam invaded us.

Position of medieval Serbian nobility, often dictated current status (influence/strength/interests) of both- Catholic and/or Orthodox Church. Who knows, maybe Nemanic`s attempt to balance between Rome and Constantinople would be successful if Turks didn`t appeared on horizon.

Tragic Serbian history is good example for examination (test) of tolerance/intolerance between (and within) Orthodox and Catholic Churches, between (within) Christianity and Islam.

more data which would give you picture, you would found here...

Piorun - | 658  
12 Jan 2008 /  #80
Lithuania at that time was not Christian. He became a Grand Duke of Lithuania in 1377, but the transition was not smooth. There were others who claimed the title, mainly his brothers. But the biggest fight he faced was with his uncle Kiejstutem and his sons.

In 1381 he was deposed for a short while by his uncle but regain the control and imprisoned him and his son Witold. His uncle died shortly after that but his main rival Witold escaped to the territory held by Teutonic Knights still claiming the title.

Facing the danger of being deposed by Witold with the help of Teutonic Knights, the only recourse was some kind of a union with Poland. In 1385 that union was signed. It was stipulated that He the Grand Duke of Lithuania will marry a Polish queen Jadwiga (who was a Queen of Poland since 1384). In exchange Lithuania will become catholic and will be united with Poland, but Jagiełło will regain the lands that he have lost to the Crown (Pomorze held by Teutonic Knights). In 1386 there was a baptismal, his wedding to Jadwiga and coronation of Władysław Jagiełło as King of Poland.

In one single stroke he has consolidated his power, eliminated his rivals and became stronger than ever. In 1387 the Christianization of Lithuania has begin according to the agreement (his brother Skirgielle was supervising this process) and in 1392 it was Witold.

As a ruler of a pagan state he was in a constant danger of losing his domain to the Christian Kingdom and He knew it. At the end it’s just Politics as usual.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699  
13 Jan 2008 /  #81
Pat, see this...

wow!! yes why should people be made to take tests of theorys unproven??

I think it should be only factual.. of course we lose alot that way to, because some
things can never be replaced once lost to wars and such. so some things that
were not theory but facts, will never again be relived in the eyes of those learning.

this is Amazing.. I am pretty excited, I want to read it tonight, but its to late.. :)
thanks :))))
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
13 Jan 2008 /  #82
Before that he already was ruler.

But only the Grand Duke of Lithuania.
Crow 148 | 9,393  
14 Jan 2008 /  #83
Position of medieval Serbian nobility, often dictated current status (influence/strength/interests) of both- Catholic and/or Orthodox Church.

one technical correction... this sentence should be written this way...

Position of medieval Serbian nobility was often dictated by current position (status/influence/strength/interests) of both- Catholic and/or Orthodox Churches.


Discovered frozen Ice man Oetzi was probably a Slav

... and, many other interesting informations on presented links


(Korenine Slovencev: Kaj razodevajo geni)
(J. Skulj (P. Eng.) The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada - 2004-3-30)
(Translation from Slovenian by Lillian Centa -- 8/04)

This hypothesis is in agreement with the results of analyses of genetic markers on the Y-chromosome, which is inherited on the father's side. Semino et al., are of the opinion that the Y-chromosome haplogroup Eu7, is presently very frequent in Croatians and Serbs; Rootsi et al. find it almost equally frequent in Slovenians at 38%, with the Slovenians having a higher percentage of the older lineages particularly M170 and M253 mutations comprising the haplogroup. This haplogroup is to have originated in the territory of Epi-Gravettian culture in the territory of present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and northern Balkans 20,000 to 25,000 years ago in the descendants of people who came from the Near East. Another genetic group, Eu19, which is the most frequent in Slavs, then in northern India, and in Pakistan, probably originated in the ice age refuge in the Ukraine and spread out after the ice age (SO), (RZ), (Y), (RO).

MtDNA haplogroup K was very frequent in 4,000 to 5,000 year old Basque skeletons, at 20%. This haplogroup K is now present in Swedes at 16%; in Slovenians with 4%. This genetic marker is also carried by the 5,300 year old mummy Oetzi - the man from the glacier. Thus, Slovenians or Slavs cannot be excluded when attempting to determine to what language group Oetzi belonged. Perhaps, with time, it may be possible to get Y-chromosome data, which would enable the researchers to determine to what present-day language family he would belong.

Czech American DNA Study: Some Early Results
by Leo Baca

A look at this preliminary data shows that Czech Americans closely resemble the distribution of Europeans for haplogroups H, X, T, and V. There are significant differences in haplogroups U, J, and K. Since haplogroup J is a genetic echo of the Neolithic people who brought agriculture to Europe, this would seem to indicate that Czech Americans are nearly entirely descended(maternally) from the Paleolithic hunters/gatherers that originally settled Europe. One unanticipated result concerned haplogroup K. We have found that three Czech Texans have exactly the same mtDNA as the "Iceman". This is the frozen mummy found on the border of Austria and Italy. He is estimated to have lived over 5000 years ago.

A comparison between a relatively small Y chromosome study from the Czech Republic with our Czech American study shows some significant differences. Haplogroup R1b is an indicator of Celtic or proto-Celtic "deep ancestry".

Iceman's final meal


Monday, 16 September, 2002, 21:31 GMT 22:31 UK

Dr Rollo added: "We were very impressed by the quality of the meals he had. The diet of people living at this time included rabbit, rats, squirrel - all sorts of things. But the iceman, in his last two meals, had red deer and ibex meat. It was a real medieval banquet!"


Dozens of women want Bronze Age hunter's babies

Ananova ^ | 4/24/03
Posted on 04/25/2003 10:35:13 AM PDT by SteveH

Dozens of women have asked to be made pregnant by a prehistoric iceman who died 5,000 years ago.

Alex Susanna, director of the Bozen Museum where his body is exhibited, says requests have been received by many women wanting to have Otzi's babies.

He told Austrian broadcasting company ORF that all of the requests had been turned down, not least because Otzi's penis had decayed away.

osiol 55 | 3,922  
14 Jan 2008 /  #84
Interesting, but I think things become problematic when jumping to conclusions from linking linguistic groups with genetically-determined groups. For example, the Celts the Ancient Greeks spoke of - it seems difficult to link these people with the populations of todays Celtic-speaking areas. It can be seen that culture (including language) spreads from group to group far more than populations move.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699  
15 Jan 2008 /  #85
He told Austrian broadcasting company ORF that all of the requests had been turned down, not least because Otzi's penis had decayed

lol... this is the first i have heard of this .. lol

well hed be one lucky guy , no child support would be ordered for the absent parent
because he is 5000 years old... lol
Crow 148 | 9,393  
16 Jan 2008 /  #86
Admin please,

Is it possible to you to make workable (one click) all links in this thread (some are placed on copy paste principle)? If not, never mind :)

on Sarmatian dilemmas...

The Name SLAV*
B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books, 1964)

History of Ukrainian nationality


During the Iron Age, numerous tribes settled on the modern-day territory of Ukraine. In the first millennium BC, a tribe of people who called themselves Cimmerians made their way from Thrace and occupied the land around the Dnieper. On the Black Sea coast, the Greeks founded numerous colonies, such as Yalta. Around 700 BC, another group of people settled on the Ukrainian steppes: the Scythians, a semi-nomadic people from Persia. At the turn of the 4th century BC, a series of Nomadic tribes succeeded each other as the dominant force on the steppes, many of who were Persian in origin. First were the Sarmatians, expert warriors and herders who were known to fight on horseback.

The Slavic tribes that constitute Belarussians were the Krivichians and Drehovichians, while they mixed with Baltic tribes. The direct Slavic ancestors of Russia are the Viatychians and Slovenians, and they mixed with the Finno-Urgric tribes of the north. Ukrainians are an amalgam of Polianians, Volhynians, with strong Iranian and Ural-Altai influence: namely, the Scythians, Sarmations, and Khazars.

few links for articles by Sergei V. Rjabchikov [for those who seek]






European Journal of Human Genetics (2004) 12, 495-504. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201160 Published online 11 February 2004

Admixture, migrations, and dispersals in Central Asia: evidence from maternal DNA lineages

David Comas, Stéphanie Plaza, R Spencer Wells, Nadira Yuldaseva, Oscar Lao, Francesc Calafell and Jaume Bertranpetit

Classical Greek and Chinese historic records cite the Scythians and Sarmatians, Indo-European-speaking people described as having European morphological traits, as the first inhabitants occupying the region.

Filios1 8 | 1,336  
22 Mar 2008 /  #87
Dozens of women have asked to be made pregnant by a prehistoric iceman who died 5,000 years ago.

Good lord. Is society really that dim to realize that a man who has been dead for 5000 years, and with decayed genitals, cannot bear anymore young?
Crow 148 | 9,393  
22 Mar 2008 /  #88
Is society really that dim

moral questions, human rights activists and low already dictate different doscussions among experts, in case with achevements of modern genetics

we can only imagine questions which diserves answers, if ideas like that mentioned above, become reality
celinski 31 | 1,258  
24 Mar 2008 /  #89
I thought I was educated on the "Holocaust", that is until I took
this 40 question test. Put it this way, I won't tell you my score and
you don't have to tell me yours.

Have fun, it is interesting. Carol

Holocausts of Communism Test
by Bryan Caplan

I dedicate this
to all those who did not live
to tell it.
And may they please forgive me
for not having seen it all
nor rememberered it all,
for not having divined all of it.
--Alexsander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Bylany1 - | 2  
24 Mar 2008 /  #90
Dear Sir,

I think that Biskupin, along with other Lusatian lake-forts in Znin region (e.g. Sobiejuchy), continues into Hallstatt D, after Bukowski to Ostoja-Zagorski. I remember that we found quite a lot of Hallstatt D material with the destruction of the parenthetical site some years ago.

BMW Albert

Dear Sirs,

I have made several pollen studies for my U. Durham Ph.D. in the Czech Republic and surrounding regions (including at the Neolthic site at Bylany and my main site at Vransky potok [Crow Creek!] in Bohemia). It seems universal (cf. Petr Pokorny and Vojen Lozek) that the major human impacts first begin in the Late (Urnfield) Bronze Age (e.g. Lusatian and Knoviz Cultures) in Central Europe (and somewhat earlier in the Balkans into the NW Carpathian Basin with Madarovce and Vetrov Cultures). The environmental data indicate the first establishment of major agriculture populations (sufficient to promote major deforestation) in Central Europe after 1500 BC (after 2000 BDC in Balkans north of Greece). Settlement data also point to major population increase at this time. It is perhaps worth noting then that demographic pre-conditions for the emergence of stable language families might also emerge at this time. Note also a certain geographic continuity which may be seen between in th extent Lusatian, Przeworsk (with some La Tene and Scythian penetrations prior to) and Pragus Typus (accepted Early Slav) pottery cultures which also correlate with Slavic place-names from East Germany to North Moravia. Some Baltic peoples may also be included in the above groupings (on the Prussian side). I suspect that one can really start speaking of distinctive proto-Balto-Slavs (becomming more distinctive from each other through time) after this threshold at about 3500 years ago (there may be glotto-chronology also to support this).

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