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Let`s compare prices of services and products in Poland


OP pawian 181 | 17,079
23 May 2012 #91
1 litre carton of UHT milk, 3.2% fat - 2.09 zlotys in a discount shop.
milky 13 | 1,657
23 May 2012 #92
What's the dole in Poland? 200 euro a month?? Average rent is 300.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 May 2012 #93
I thought you lived here? Dole is far less than that.

Average rent for a room is less than 1000pln, usually shared, so <500pln in Krakow, so just over 100 euro's rent. Live in a small town and it will be far cheaper. Students are paying less than 400pln in the Krakow suburbs, we rent our room out to two students for 1000pln/month and its a ten minute walk to the center of town.

comparable to earnings? what scale are you basing this claim on?

Based on the EU cost of food survey, not relative to earning.

Well then you are the lucky one.What about others?

My wifes Grandmother gave her this apartment, now worth about 100k euro.

Downstairs an Aunt gave that apartment to a repair man who promised to look after her and keep her company for her final few years. She died recently.

My sister in law was given an apartment from another grandparent. Her boyfriend was give an apartment by his grandfather.

Parents-in law bought a one bed flat in a small town. 20k pln ($6k, £4k) and gave it to their son.

Virtual every one of my Polish family were given/bought property for figures around 20-40K pln which, due to inflation and currency appreciation is now a tiny sum which means they are debt free owners.

One family I know paid 3000pln for a large house with a 3 ha field surrounded by national woodland. $1000.

Similar situation with friends. Mid twenty's in age and owners of property through inheritance/gifts. No parents I know have any mortgage debt unless its second properties.

I bought a farm for 175Kpln which the owners had paid 37K in the mid 1990's.

Wife's Parents bought a 1ha farm, house and large stone workshop for 70kpln

Polish people have a remarkable small amount of mortgage debt compared to western European countries, even in relation to wages/gdp. The fact that the entire social housing stock was give/sold for peanuts to almost everyone in the country has something to do with it. So you have a very large number of Poles who have large assets and low living costs, coupled with competitively low costs of food.
Wroclaw Boy
24 May 2012 #94
Holy crap weg, did all these grandparents not have any actual sons or daughters to hand properties down to, and is virtually every person you know (as it seems) the only grand daughter / son? or merely the favourite grand daughter / son? Did EVERY single grandparent have an official will, standard law in Poland is that the deceaseds wealth automatically gets shared out between the children not grand children.

I especially liked the lady who gave her property to the handy man story.

Your story has way too many holes to be credible.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
24 May 2012 #95
happens on regular basis. There are many old people who don't have a proper care when they are old and this is their way to deal with it. I personally know 2 people who gave the apartments/house to somebody who was looking after them when they were old.
Wroclaw Boy
24 May 2012 #96
You cant personally know them they are dead, its like the old gas on a train story, everybody knows somebody who knows someone. You're lying aphro, tell the story again, and this time no little white lies such as "I personally know".

These two people not have any family? was it a care home? no children? where they bad people to be abandoned by their own families at old age? did they both write wills?
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 May 2012 #97
I especially liked the lady who gave her property to the handy man story.

I must admit this shocked me a bit. She was very old and the guy offered to look after her until death, which was about 5 years. They moved in for a couple of years and are now selling the place.

My wife looked after her grandmother after she got cancer. Gave up school and delayed entering university to do it.

These two people not have any family? was it a care home? no children? where they bad people to be abandoned by their own families at old age? did they both write wills?

Think about it, tens of millions of communist apartments were just given to their tenants. There are no real social services and these people lived through grinding poverty in the war and then communism.

Did EVERY single grandparent have an official will, standard law in Poland is that the deceaseds wealth automatically gets shared out between the children not grand children.

The family members (well, the other son) agree to it. The mother has 1/20ths share and its agreed we can never sell it.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
24 May 2012 #98
Peterweg wrote:

Average rent for a room is less than 1000pln, usually shared, so <500pln in Krakow, so just over 100 euro's rent. Live in a small town and it will be far cheaper. Students are paying less than 400pln in the Krakow suburbs, we rent our room out to two students for 1000pln/month and its a ten minute walk to the center of town.

"Students" being the key word here. In the grand scheme of things, this doesn't say anything about the price of apartments in Poland for the average Pawel. you spend how long.....3-5 years as a student in your lifetime (if you even go to uni). Then big boy life starts, a spouse, children, cars.....but hey, if your aspirations of the good life is a spouse and 2 kids in a 65 sq. meter flat on the 4th floor of an old commie bloc, go for it.

Based on the EU cost of food survey, not relative to earning.

so in other words, more useless info.

Polish people have a remarkable small amount of mortgage debt compared to western European countries, even in relation to wages/gdp.

I can't help but wonder what happens when all those old houses and apartments are eventually torn down due to old age and Poland has to start building again. No more free handouts and everyone has to get a mortgage like the rest of us poor schlubs.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 May 2012 #99
That will be 200 years hence. These old communist blocks are solidly built, besides its the land of value, so rebuilding will be a small part of the total cost.

Sorry that life in Poland doesn't live up to a rotten wooden hut in a godforsaken American suburb.

Almost everyone in Krakow lives in apartments, some people have cheap houses in the country, some both. I've got the choice myself of which to live in town or country to bring up the kids. We are swinging. towards living on the Farm
Avalon 4 | 1,068
24 May 2012 #100
That will be 200 years hence.

Best laugh I have had today. Stick to IT or farming, you know FA about construction.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
24 May 2012 #101
So you build tour apartments to fall down after a couple of years eh?

I'll avoid anything you have built.

Ok, steel reinforced concrete building only last 80 years on average.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
24 May 2012 #102
So you build tour apartments to fall down after a couple of years eh?

Is that the best retort you can come up with?

What I build is not being discussed. I believe the post was referring to the post war, communist era, apartment blocks. These were constructed with an expected lifespan of approx. 50 years (that's assuming that they were built to specs) and you think that they will last another 200 years?

Stay off the subject of property, it's not your strong point.
Wroclaw Boy
24 May 2012 #103
That will be 200 years hence. These old communist blocks are solidly built, besides its the land of value, so rebuilding will be a small part of the total cost.

Weg you cant be saying things like this, what do you mean about the land value, youre not serioulsy saying what i think you are, are you? theyre flats i.e. smaller plots larger profits..........

Stay off the subject of property, it's not your strong point.

and geography.
OP pawian 181 | 17,079
24 May 2012 #104
These were constructed with an expected lifespan of approx. 50 years (that's assuming that they were built to specs) and you think that they will last another 200 years?

You deem yourself an expert? :):):):) Come on.

Provide one example of a Polish communist-built apartment block which has collapsed.

Like in China

Stay off the subject of property, it's not your strong point.

Best laugh I have had today. Stick to IT or farming, you know FA about construction.

Sorry, those incantations of yours sound ridiculous.

Conclusion: communist apartment blocks will last as long as people desire to live in them.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
25 May 2012 #105
iwoev.org/fileadmin/Dokumente/Downloads/Publikationen/Housing_Market_PL_Short_Report_Schmigo.pdf

Although this report was issued in 2004, you will note that the recommendation is for 700,000 units to be "replaced" over a period of 5-10 years. Have you seen any indication of this happening? I can show you many examples of these communist, concrete slab constructions with temporary repairs to spalling concrete and with large cracks to external walls which have been filled in with waterproof mastic. Blocks have been clad with sheet metal to stop further water ingress. Most stupidly of all, blocks have been insulted and rendered to give a nice outside appearance without the concrete cancer being treated, this will only extend the life of the building by a few more years.

Same thing happened in the UK and they are still demolishing these types of buildings now.

I may sound ridiculous, but at least I know what I am talking about.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
25 May 2012 #106
You are probably correct, I've not seen the inside of more than a dozen blocks in Poland so its obviously given me a skewed impression. has there been any sign of building collapsing in Poland as the 10 years is nearly up, maybe this work is on going. Pre-war buildings are having a lot of major work, post war there is little sign of it so far.

I couldn't understand this though.

In Krakow you have to pay toward the building maintenance fund (3000pln per year in our case) as well as all the other costs, I find it hard to believe this isn't normal.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
25 May 2012 #107
9. Approximately 3 millions apartments in Poland are owned by the housing cooperatives. It is safe to say, that every third Pole and every second city inhabitant lives in the blocks. The problem therefore is not trivial. The following has been observed in large project housing estates: - high apartment rotation factor, - significant rent arrears: 40 to 70% inhabitants are past due, - high unemployment, higher in such estates than in the city center, The social problems, heretofore typical rather for the inhabitants of communal apartments, tend to occur more often:  uncertain life situation,  isolation to the family circle,  increase of juvenile crime,  marginalization, a feeling of social seclusion,  decreasing participation,  increasing passivity of the inhabitants.

10. The only answer of the government to the issue of the projects so far is the thermal renovation. The insulation of the existing apartments constitutes one of the most important goals of the housing policy . The thermal modernization act is being broadly implemented in practice. Due to its transparent procedures and public funding it allows to achieve the significant savings in the exploitation of buildings. The development of technical threads, however, is not enough to change the direction of transformations and remedy the situation. Even the renovated estates, thermally isolated buildings and repainted elevations cannot hold the residents who aspire to a higher quality life and work standards. Easily accessible resources and the general public support for thermal modernization have resulted in a series of realizations that are questionable in the least. The type and value of the elevation notwithstanding, the buildings are covered with Styrofoam and plaster on a massive scale.

Lack of money for efficient remedial works, therefore, kicking the can down the road.

It was not until 6 people were killed in the UK (Ronan Point disaster) that action was taken to demolish these death-traps.

I couldn't understand this though.

The privatisation of single dwelling units and the subsequent situation of multiple-ownership in one
building constitutes a major obstacle for the effective management and the necessary rehabilitation of
the housing stock.

It simply means that there is a mixture of private and state ownership, some can pay, others cannot or won't. Decisions do not get made, nothing gets done.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
25 May 2012 #108
If you don't pay, you lose the property. My sisters boyfriend (the one who was given the flat) nearly had this done.

Surely this is normal in apartments? How can you have an apartment block without service/community fees and an administration to enforce it?

This may also be an issue in London, if you read about the Stockwell roof collapse. Maybe a one off, or maybe a sign of the future.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
25 May 2012 #109
If you don't pay, you lose the property.

I do not think you understand what I am explaining. In the large communist blocks, some of the occupants have been given the right to buy by the state. Others do not want to buy and have subsidised rents. The government cannot increase the rents to the extent of covering the rising costs of maintenance or major repairs. What the government would ideally like is for everyone to buy, they could then wash their hands of any repair works.

4. Since the beginning of Polish transformation, both the experts and the politicians have maintained that the residential construction should be an engine of the economy. The problem is, this engine has not been started yet. Mere 0,1% of the gross national product is allocated to subsidies for the construction sector - the lowest number since the World War II. The diagram shows since 10 years the direct budgetary expenses for the housing sector have been decreasing constantly. Only since two years they have been showing a minimal upward tendency In the western countries a thesis has been accepted, that the investment of public funds in housing constitutes a long-term policy, profitable to the society and to the country. In Poland, after 1989 the opposite process has started: the country has commenced to withdraw from active construction policy.

So, as the artical suggests, the amount of money allocated to social housing has decreased and with the current budget cuts, this will get worse and exasperate the problem.

I am not suggesting that there will be a wide-scale collapse of buildings. I only question what is going to happen to the people when these apartment blocks become unfit for human habitation and are condemned. Where are these people going to be housed? It would only take one disaster to call into question the safety of all high-rise blocks constructed in a similar way and would be a major headache for the Polish government.

This may also be an issue in London, if you read about the Stockwell roof collapse. Maybe a one off, or maybe a sign of the future.

I did read about this. Not quite the same thing, these were brick built "gable" end walls but it was amazing that 5 should all give way at the same time. I do not know why this should happen but the speculation is that an extreme change of temperature built up in the lofts and the expanding air forced the weak brickwork walls outwards. I would like to see the structural engineers report as I have never come across this before.
OP pawian 181 | 17,079
25 May 2012 #110
Avalon, you are an expert, indeed, but a partial one. As a developer, you are vitally interested in pulling down old blocks and moving their lodgers to new houses built by your company.

That is why I have to take everything what you say with a big grain of salt. Actually, it is a lump of salt from Wieliczka Salt Mine.

One day or another those old communist blocks will be pulled down. But not because of collapse risk.

First prefabricated blocks were built in Poland in late 1950s. None has crashed so far.

It was not until 6 people were killed in the UK (Ronan Point disaster) that action was taken to demolish these death-traps.

The problem is that the mentioned house was partly demolished due to gas explosion.

You don`t expect that people will start pulling down blocks in Poland to reduce the risk of gas explosion?

Come on......

1995, massive gas explosion struck a block in GdaƄsk:

s
Avalon 4 | 1,068
26 May 2012 #111
I am not surprised that you chose to attack everything I say on a personal level. If you bothered to read my posts properly, you might understand that I build and develop as a hobby. I retired 8 years ago. My interest in construction follows along the lines of wishing to improve the choice and quality of the housing which is provided in Poland, especially, affordable housing. I dislike sink estates and the social problems that go with them, I dislike seeing young families having to live in sub-standard accommodation because the successive Polish governments do not set funds aside to improve their living conditions.

My own projects provide work and homes for local people. I concentrate on small developments with plenty of space and privacy. I would never build anything that I would not live in myself. Because I take an interest in construction do not assume that its all about money, I get a huge amount of pleasure in constructing a good building where the clients are happy to live. Building is an ever learning process with new regulations, materials and technologies appearing all the time, which, I have to keep up to date with.

You may think that the communist blocks are part of the "quaintness" of what Poland is about, that is your perogotive, I personally would rather try and improve and help with the skills I have. If you do not have anything to add except your ignorance, feel free not to comment.
Wroclaw Boy
26 May 2012 #112
My sisters boyfriend (the one who was given the flat) nearly had this done.

How does that work, you and your sister both with Poles?
peterweg 37 | 2,319
26 May 2012 #113
As many have pointed out, if you take housing costs out of the equation, Poland isn't exactly an expensive country.

And many peoples housing costs are trivial due to the gifts of communism.

How does that work, you and your sister both with Poles?

Sorry, missed out 'in-law'

My sisters-in law'sboyfriend (the one who was given the flat) nearly had this done.
milky 13 | 1,657
26 May 2012 #114
Jesus man!!!! I'm talking about the average person with a family and kids.
Do you expect families to live in a room.

Average rent for a family size apartment is???
Apartment for a couple??
How many weeks of the average wage? 3??5??
eberhart 13 | 120
26 May 2012 #115
Yes families do live in single rooms here. I know "four person and a dog" families that live in one room flats. I even know a couple 6 person familes that live in two rooms flats...meaning one main room and one bedroom. It's uncommon to have more than two rooms for most people here. That means if you have a family they grow up in tight quarters and that is just how it is.

In Warsaw renting a two room flat starts in the 1500 or so range..I couldn't say the avg. You can always get a better deal if you know someone...but I haven't seen even crappy flats listed for less than 1500. 1700 and up is more realistic for a decent standard anywhere near the center.
peterweg 37 | 2,319
26 May 2012 #116
Jesus man!!!! I'm talking about the average person with a family and kids.

Average renter is Krakow is a Student. You didn't mention specifics, I did.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
26 May 2012 #117
In Warsaw renting a two room flat starts in the 1500 or so range..I couldn't say the avg. You can always get a better deal if you know someone...but I haven't seen even crappy flats listed for less than 1500. 1700 and up is more realistic for a decent standard anywhere near the center.

The elephant in the room here is if you live like most Polish people, you can make it happen, meaning the bills get paid. But who wants to live like most Polish people?

You can shove a bunch of people into a little apartment, pay the rent at the end of the month and say, "we can afford to live in Warsaw", but your standard of living, or quality of life I should say, basically sucks.

In the USA it's not uncommon to find a 2 bedroom apartment with 12 mexicans living in it. it's filthy, unsanitary, but they "can afford it."

At the end of the day, it's hard to have an argument about finances when you have people with different definitions of "afford" or "cheap" or "expensive" or "comfortable".
eberhart 13 | 120
26 May 2012 #118
I would hardly say the families I know living in one or two rooms are living in filth. In fact their places are nice and clean. The biggest issue is privacy for everyone. I am not sure what your point is as the normal situation in this country is closer quarters living and flats are not huge in most places for the average person. Normal people in New York don't live in huge places either. Maybe if you come from a suburb you don't understand what city life is like but space is not as plentiful.

Saying people live cramped just so they can "say they live in Warsaw" is stupid. People live in what they can afford where they want/need to live. Half a million US dollars will get you a pretty big house in some boring suburb in middle America...and won't even touch a house or apartment purchase in New York or Los Angeles. If you choose to live in a city you get less space per unit of currency and that is how it is...but not everyone wants to live out in the burbs or rurally.
OP pawian 181 | 17,079
26 May 2012 #119
I am not surprised that you chose to attack everything I say on a personal level.

Not at all. I only question your expertise on communist blocks.

You said:

I believe the post was referring to the post war, communist era, apartment blocks. These were constructed with an expected lifespan of approx. 50 years (that's assuming that they were built to specs) and you think that they will last another 200 years?

According to it, first blocks should have collapsed a few years ago.

Nothing like that has happened.

Those blocks, hundred thousands of them all over Poland, are ugly and primitive, yet they are all standing.

What`s wrong with your theory?

Same thing happened in the UK and they are still demolishing these types of buildings now.

It is natural. If people lose interest in living there, the buildings are pulled down.

I said it already: communist blocks will also be gradually demolished because people will find better places to live.

You may think that the communist blocks are part of the "quaintness" of what Poland is about, that is your perogotive,

Did you really draw such a conclusion from my several posts? :):):):) if yes, I must say you see things which don`t exist......

If you do not have anything to add except your ignorance, feel free not to comment.

yaaawn.....

Again: spare me those incantations.
Avalon 4 | 1,068
26 May 2012 #120
According to it, first blocks should have collapsed a few years ago.

Where did I say collapse? You are the person that mentioned collapse, again you make things up, I said a life expectancy. To make it simple for you, it means usefulness.

I said it already: communist blocks will also be gradually demolished because people will find better places to live.

I agree, but as you pointed out,

Those blocks, hundred thousands of them all over Poland, are ugly and primitive, yet they are all standing.

The government will need to begin very soon.

Again: spare me those incantations.

Simple enough, you stick to your topics which I am not interested in and I will comment on what I know, not guesswork.


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