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Male name declension in Poland

jgrabner Activity: 1 / 1
Joined: 4 Oct 2016 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #1

This is about the declension of male names in the accusative case (I presume):

We wtorkowy wieczór odbyło się spotkanie liderów Platformy Obywatelskiej, Nowoczesnej oraz Polskiego Stronnictwa Ludowego zorganizowane przez Grzegorza Schetyną.

wprost.pl/kraj/10038273/W-parlamencie-dojdzie-do-przesilenia-Obrady-Sejmu-i-Senatu-spotkanie-opozycji-Sala-Kolumnowa-gotowa.html
(Tue. evening, a meeting between the leaders of PO, .N and PSL took place, organized by Grzegorz Schetyna)

Jak podkreślił Wierzejski, takie działania jest zgodne z polityką zapowiedzianą przez Grzegorza Schetyna...

telewizjarepublika.pl/wierzejski-pani-bienkowska-zakonczyla-prace-jako-przedstawiciel-polski-a-zaczela-jako-przedstawiciel-po,28468.html?fb_comment_id=949605988460704_950036115084358
(As underlined by Mr. Wierzejski, such action is consistent with the policy announced by Grzegorz Schetyna)

przez requires the acc. and name declension rules for Grzegorz Schetyna give me Grzegorza Schetynę. Most do it this way, but not the cited examples. Similar:

Rod Blagojevich został aresztowany we wtorek przez FBI chciał łapówki za wyznaczenie następcy na zwolnione przez Baracka Obama miejsce w Senacie.

newsweek.pl/swiat/afera-przy-wyznaczaniu-nastepcy-obamy,30108,1,1.html
(Rod Blagojevich was arrested tuesday by the FBI (because) he wanted a bribe for the appointment of a successor to the freed senate seat of/by Barack Obama)

I would have come up with Baracka Obamę as most others, but obviously not all.

Since I selected respected news sites, I am not sure if these are imperfections/mistakes but maybe I am missing some rule? thanks for reading.

Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #2

The declension pattern(s) of male names follows different criteria for native Polish aka Slavic vs. foreign names:-)

As with place names in Polish, sometimes foreign ones are left undeclined!
Ziemowit Activity: 6 / 2,224
Joined: 8 May 2009 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #3

You are right - these are all mistakes. "Przez Baracka Obamę" is the corrrect form heard everywhere on TV and radio. "Przez Baracka Obama" sounds weird. Likewise, you will say "przez Donalda Trumpa".

The general rule in Polish is to decline everything that is feasible for declension.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #4

Except, of course, where certain select non-Polish or even non-Slavic or European names are concerned, for instance "Mieszkam we Forest Hills," and NOT [necessarily] "Mieszkam we Forescie Hillzie", or some such nonsense:-)

It's all a matter of consonant combos and how they jive with Polish orthography!
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #5

Mieszkam w Forest Hills

Yet another one, Lyzko
:)

You try hard to sound like an expert in Polish yet you do so many and so simple mistakes in basically every sentence...
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #6

However, "wE Warszawie" etc..

Here again, even among native Polish speakers there is sometimes disagreement, on even basic (not necessarily subtle) points, and so don't be discouraged:-)

Try asking the average English "expert" on his/her own spelling rules and you'll see, even among English teachers occasional doubt!
lol
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
11 Jan 2017  #7

@Lyzko
Ofc there can be different opinions among Poles about different language aspects but i am not speaking about those. I am speaking about your post.

There's no disagreement between Polish speakers in this case.
It's "w Warszawie" and it's never "we Warszawie".
It's "w wodzie" and never "we wodzie".
It's "w Wałbrzychu" and never "we Wałbrzychu".
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #8

"We Warszawie" I've seen in Polish newspapers, journals etc. It's the elision principle, because the "w" and the succeeding word BOTH begin the identical letter:-) To help you, think of "zE swoij..." and so forth. In the latter instance, "z swoij.." would be considered incorrect (if nonetheless comprehensible) Polish!
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #9

zE swoij

What? In what language is that?

I am 100% sure you haven't seen "we Warszawie" in a newspaper if it was less than 200 years old lol.

You might seen "we Wrocławiu" and it confused you though.

It's the elision principle, because the "w" and the succeeding word BOTH begin the identical letter

There's no such rule in Polish.
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,592
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #10

"We Warszawie"

I don't know what you have seen but that is just the way some people speak. In no way this is a correct way to talk in the Polish language.
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #11

@Ironside
Don't know a single person who would say it that way. Maybe to make it sound funny or "for lols".

sjp.pwn.pl/slowniki/we%20Warszawie.html

(its in Polish but such an expert like Lyzko will have no probs to read through that :)))
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,592
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #12

Don't know a single person who would say it that way. Maybe to make it sound funny or "for lols".

Well, it mean you don't know many peeps. Maybe in the region you calling from people are not talking that way. Maybe you don't pay enough attention it is easy to miss, some people definitely talk like that.

Plus sometimes use of 'we' is justified. For example -

Sprawdź, co dzieje się we Wrocławiu

NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #13

@Ironside
Well maybe they do in your area. Which part of Poland you live in? I live in Western Poland, Lubuskie voivodship.

We and w is strictly determined by the word that follows it. If it's a group of consonants starting with "w" then we use "we". You still can use "w" though.

You can say both "w Wrocławiu" and "we Wrocławiu". You can't say "we Warszawie" though.
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 784
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
12 Jan 2017  #14

because the "w" and the succeeding word BOTH begin the identical letter:-)

No it isn't that. Whether it is 'w' or 'we' ( or 'z' or 'ze' ) depends on the initial consonants in the word following the preposition. There are rules which govern this, but I did read somewhere that 'we' and 'ze' are used in cases where adding 'w' or 'z' to a word with 'bad' combinations of consonants at the start of it makes it difficult to pronounce. E.g w + words starting with wr/wł/wz are bad consonant combinations, and 'we' instead of 'w' would be used.

You can say both "w Wrocławiu" and "we Wrocławiu"

Maybe what I read isn't 100% correct then, as from my above paragraph, i would have thought it would only be 'we Wrocławiu'. But at least I know that 'we Wtorek' is 100% correct!
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #15

Thanks to both Ironside and NoToForeigners for the site. Indeed, it makes much more sense in Polish than in English!

Apparently, "We Wrocławiu" and "W Warszawie" aren't entirely analogous. However, I couldn've sworn that I read sentences with "We Warszawie".
Will be more attentive next time round:-)

Often, Poles aren't as adept at explaining their language in a secondary tongue, therefore, it's always best (as in any language) to head straight for the source.
Ironside Activity: 41 / 7,592
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #16

Maybe what I read isn't 100% correct then, as from my above paragraph, i would have thought it would only be 'we Wrocławiu'

You're correct Chemikiem.

Poles aren't as adept at explaining their language in a secondary tongue

Lzyko you need a linguist or a teacher that would explain all nuances to you. I'm simply surprised why you ask such a detailed and yet secondary not to say trifle questions about the usage of the Polish language.

W or we - even native speakers don't always get it right. If I were you I would focus on basics.
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #17

No it isn't that. Whether it is 'w' or 'we' ( or 'z' or 'ze' ) depends on the initial consonants in the word following the preposition.

Need to be two consonants at least with the first being either "z" or "w".

Examples.

We Wrocławiu
Ze Zgierza
We wtorek

But

W Warszawie
W Środę
W Malborku
Z Warszawy
Z Zielonej Góry

That's why I said "a group of consonants" before.
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 784
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
12 Jan 2017  #18

W or we - even native speakers don't always get it right

I do know that Poles are always disagreeing on aspects of Polish language, but in regards to 'w' and 'we', surely this is quite basic?
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
12 Jan 2017  #19

@Chemikiem
Yup. It's very natural and if someone says We Warszawie he does it being weeeeeell aware it's incorrect and to sound funny :)
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 784
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
12 Jan 2017  #20

That's why I said "a group of consonants" before.

Aha, I understand what you mean now. I just learnt the 'bad' consonant combinations as I explained earlier, although I didn't list them all. Different way of learning I suppose.
DominicB Activity: - / 1,457
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #21

@Lyzko

I mentioned Oscar Swan's grammar to you before. He's really good at explaining things like this. You can download it for free on the internet. It's worth its weight in gold. He has by far the best explanation of verbal aspect that I have come across, and he goes into the minutia of pronunciation and orthography. Here's the link that will download a (completely legal) pdf copy of the grammar from his own personal website:

lektorek.org/lektorek/grammar.pdf
Chemikiem Activity: 5 / 784
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
13 Jan 2017  #22

Thanks for supplying that link Dominic, I will download this as I haven't actually read any of his books on grammar.
Ziemowit Activity: 6 / 2,224
Joined: 8 May 2009 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #23

Sometimes the rules don't explain everything and it is the usage which may be the decisive factor. For example, I would always use the phrase "we Lwowie", but I would definitely prefer to say "w Lwówku Śląskim".

You can say both "w Wrocławiu" and "we Wrocławiu".

Never heard or read "w Wrocławiu".
DominicB Activity: - / 1,457
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #24

Never heard or read "w Wrocławiu".

Me neither during my eight years there.
NoToForeigners Activity: 3 / 221
Joined: 19 Oct 2016 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #25

Never claimed people say it that way. Just that it's correct.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #26

Good stuff there, guys! Just keep it a-comin'.

@Ironside,

Don't be any more surprised that I read and understood the Polish explanations than I should necessarily be as suprised if you understood a technical site on the same topic in English:-)

Futhermore, according to Iwona Sadowska's Comprehensive Polish Grammar, wE Wrocławiu IS ACCEPTED USAGE AND THEREFORE CORRECT!
DominicB Activity: - / 1,457
Joined: 28 Sep 2012 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #27

Futhermore, according to Iwona Sadowska's Comprehensive Polish Grammar, wE Wrocławiu IS ACCEPTED USAGE AND THEREFORE CORRECT!

Everybody here agrees on that. We Warszawie, however, is not standard Polish. Did you see the link I left above to Swan's grammar?
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #28

Indeed, DominicB. What's more, Sadowska agree with him. Accepted, it's an unequivocal mistake:-)
Ziemowit Activity: 6 / 2,224
Joined: 8 May 2009 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #29

Just that it's correct.

It's incorrect in the same way as "we Warszawie" is incorrect.

We Warszawie he does it being weeeeeell aware it's incorrect

wE Wrocławiu IS ACCEPTED USAGE

Not only it is accepted usage, but also it goes in accordance with the rule.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,487
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
13 Jan 2017  #30

All agreed.




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Male name declension in Poland
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