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WWII - who really was the first to help Poland?



gumishu 11 | 4,743    
6 Aug 2009  #91

They started it.

No they didn't. Poland tried to hold elections in the Polish controlled sector despite having signed an interim agreement stating that no sovereign rule was to be executed in the region. Polish arrogance coming before a fall, yet again.

oh man - Czechs were desperate to have this territory - they would use any pretext to get hold of it - and it seems this was just a pretext (the territory had strategic value - the only rail connection from Czech republic to Slovakia (then) and also the coal deposits - after gaining control they instituted quite intensive czechisation policies (don't know the details) - there is some sort of bad feelings now in Zaolzie towards street names in Polish only recently introduced which are being devastated - there is still around 60 thousand strong Polish minority there in spite of czechisation policies that were in place for some 60 years


Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
6 Aug 2009  #92

Hmm...just reading the editorials to Keegan:

...The First World War was a tragic and unnecessary conflict.
Unnecessary because the train of events that led to its outbreak might have been broken at any point during the five weeks of crisis that preceded the first clash of arms, had prudence or common goodwill found a voice; tragic because the consequences of the first clash ended the lives of ten million human beings, tortured the emotional lives of millions more, destroyed the benevolent and optimistic culture of the European continent and left, when the guns at last fell silent four years later, a legacy of political rancour and racial hatred so intense that no explanation of the causes of the Second World War can stand without reference to those roots.

waterbrookmultnomah.com/workid.php?isbn=9780739312490&format=book&view=excerpt

I fully agree with that!
Harry 81 | 13,431    
6 Aug 2009  #93

would use any pretext to get hold of it - and it seems this was just a pretext

Superb! We Poles went back on our word (you had agreed in the interim agreement no sovereign rule was to be executed in the disputed region) but then when the Czechs react, they are looking for any pretext! Love it!

BTW: what's your excuse for the 1938 Polish land grab from northern Spisz and northern Orawa and around Lesnica and around Skalité?
Babinich 1 | 457    
6 Aug 2009  #94

I fully agree with that!

And the result? Total defeat...
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
6 Aug 2009  #95

Erm....I meant the summary....
Didn't you just recommend this book?
(A bit touchy aren't you? Not good for your objectivity)
Babinich 1 | 457    
6 Aug 2009  #96

"No, we do not pardon, we demand--vengeance!".

I am quite objective and the result of Hilter's reign, made possible by the German volk, was total defeat.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
6 Aug 2009  #97

Yes? And no...you are everything but objective. You are a Germanophobe!
You are going so far as to deny even the Austrians their part and declaring them occupied!

Even as the Austrians belonged to the most enthusiastic Nazis of them all...
Babinich 1 | 457    
6 Aug 2009  #98

You just cannot accept responsibility for your nation can you?
joepilsudski 26 | 1,394    
6 Aug 2009  #100

Poles helped themselves...By believing in 'promises' made by certain powers, they were overun...Later, Poles HELPED THE ALLIES win a war they created by contributing soldiers and pilots who fought on the Allied side...Of course, caught between the dual satanic pincers of the Communusts and the Nazis, Poland was essentially dead meat...Hitler was determined to overthrow the Bolsheviks, which was a noble idea, except for the fact that he overan Poland for this purpose...The end does not justify the means...And this is historically proven by his eventual defeat by the Bolshevist horde...But because of the duplicitous nature of the British, French and American elites, this war was unfortunately inevitable...Other forces also worked behind the scenes to create the carnage...For insight into the overall causes of the war, I would recommend reading 'Insanity Fair' and 'Disgrace Abounding' by the late, great British journalist Douglas Reed.
peterweg 36 | 2,295    
6 Aug 2009  #101

tornado2007

i know that some Poles joined the RAF but apart from that i'm not sure, anyway after all this talk of Britain 'doing it for themselves' the Polish didn't exactly join the RAF for something to do, they were a little pissed at Jerry, if thats not doing something for yourself i don't know what is :):):):):)

Fourth largest Allied army throughout the war, something like 250K fighting at anyone time.
Babinich 1 | 457    
6 Aug 2009  #102

Where did I deny that???

Where did you accept your nation's responsibility?
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
6 Aug 2009  #103

Erm...and how should that look in your eyes?
I'm at a loss what you mean actually?

Did I deny Hitler, the invasions or anything??? What???

I'm sure I could help you out if I just knew what you actually want from me?

Babi??? Where are you???? Come baaaaaack!
Mr Grunwald 17 | 1,479    
6 Aug 2009  #104

I am here ;)

Easy as it is, everyone else started the conflicts. Blood which was flooding wasn't our fault since it was mostly because of local conflicts or invasion of Poland (later also Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and German settlements & city's)

We are innocent, we live free now. We are allied with almost all of Europe except Sweden and some minor countries.

If ye start talking about how Ruthinians were treated by nobles then I ask you did a majority of the people or the king make any laws or anything which would legally accept it? Was it popular? Rather not...

and those camps... do you really think that second republic of Poland wanted to exterminate other minorities in Poland? Or was it maybe only the right winged? Who is who? and what it what?

I have no grudge to people who lives in those countries today, I forgive their past which their naturally proud of. Even those Ukrainians with whole that Bandera race... people! Did they have their Pilsudski? Did they have their Kazimierz Wielki? Did they have their Sobieski? They almost have nothing! I feel pity for them.

Germans... yes Germans living in the times before now were specially almost always anti-Polish in general and the Poles felt it! some even feel it today but I forgive today's Germans and other nations. It's not the people's fault it's the extremists fault, the Nazis, the imperialists, the Prussian like guys, communists or other lunatics (Mujahedins for instance)! They don't know what they did and are doing
Pan Kazimierz 1 | 195    
7 Aug 2009  #105

Tell your father that the Nazis were a dead end for everybody (hindsight).
It was a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" situation more or less (hindsight of course).

Man, I tell him all this... he insists that together, our two countries could have conquered the world... without the Enigma thing and the resistance and the British suck and all that.

I suppose it's quite fair to say I get my stubbornness from him. =/
Also, he's quite the germanophile/russophobe...

Okay....but I rarely see a honest debate about the not-so-cool points in polish history (or if than not without much white washing).

I try. Except when it comes to the thing with 'Germany couldn't have trashed Poland by herself' thing; then, I just be obnoxious enough to turn nearby Germans/psuedo-Germans (lots of those in the States; call themselves German, but never been, and don't speak the language, dine on the cuisine, etc.) from smug to angry.

Whereas nearly no week goes by without some thread about WWII and how saintly Poland was betrayed by everybody and his grandmom..

I'm actually no happier about that than you are. I came here for the modern-day politics, not the ancient history. I figure I already know about as much about the history as I'll ever feel a need to.

Not "they managed to pay them back not quite three years ago": "which it was agreed that they would pay back over a 50-year period which ended in 2005". Although at least your latest version is an improvement on your first version....

Both are correct.

No they didn't.

Yes they did. When they invaded and took Cieszyn some time back. If we're going to bring forth such an effort to point out the darker side of Polish history, we can at least hold everyone else to the same standards. The Czechs are no victims here, and they certainly were not betrayed. One can only betray an ally.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
7 Aug 2009  #106

Yes they did. When they invaded and took Cieszyn some time back.

Both sides signed an interim agreement on 5 November 1918. Poland broke it (by attempting to exercise sovereign rule in the region, something clearly forbidden by the interim agreement). Then the Czechs broke it (by sending troops into the disputed region to ensure that Poland did not exercise sovereign rule in the region). Then on 3 February 1919 a Polish-Czech border agreement was signed on the basis of the 5 November agreement. That was then fine tuned on 28 July 1920 and Poland again agreed to the border. Three times Poland agreed the interbellum border and never did Poland keep her word.
Babinich 1 | 457    
7 Aug 2009  #107

Maybe that had something to do with the Czechs blocking Hungarian aide during the Polish-Soviet war?

The Hungarians were aware that Poles were fighting for their freedom and tried to extend a helping hand. They planned to dispatch a 30,000-man cavalry corps to join the Polish Army, but the Czechoslovak government denied them passage across Czechoslovak territory.

Fortunately for the Poles Hungarian attempts to help Poland succeeded in the crucial period of the war, when several trains loaded with Hungary-made Mauser rifles reached Poland.

That help was remembered by Poles as another manifestation of the traditional Polish-Hungarian friendship.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 7,938    
7 Aug 2009  #108

The Hungarians were aware that Poles were fighting for their freedom and tried to extend a helping hand.

The same Hungarians who allied themselves to Germany during WWII?
Whose land was stolen and given to other, new countries like it happened to Germany?

Nice chaps, I agree!

Oh...erm....in case you ask them to take over responsibility for their nations deeds, what exactly should they do?
Harry 81 | 13,431    
7 Aug 2009  #109

Maybe that had something to do with the Czechs blocking Hungarian aide during the Polish-Soviet war?

No. It had nothing at all to do with that. The elections which the Poles should not have tried to organise took place on 26 January 1919. The Polish-Soviet war hadn't started then.

Next excuse please.

BTW: Now that I think about it, Czechoslovakia was never going to let Hungarian troops cross their territority in 1920. Not after Hungary had invaded Czechoslovakia the year before!
Amanda91 1 | 135    
7 Aug 2009  #110

WWII - who really was the first to help Poland?

Great Britain & France declared war on Germany, September 3, 1939, because Germany invaded Poland September 1.
Great Britain & France had a treaty with Poland that stated if a nation invaded any of the three treaty nations, it was the same as invading all three nations. So when Germany invaded Poland, it was as if Germany had invaded Great Britain & France also but despite the treaty when the WWII started, no one was really technically realistically able to help Poland. Germany created a huge military power and it was a very serious threat to anyone at that time. As long as the western hoped, Hitler was going to be satisfied with getting Austria and the entire east (or parts of it) no one wanted and was able to take the risk of being in war with Germany. I'm sure if Hitler went westwards instead to go east, Poland also wouldn't be able to help anyone.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,455    
7 Aug 2009  #111

Poland also wouldn't be able to help anyone.

good point.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
7 Aug 2009  #112

Great Britain & France had a treaty with Poland that stated if a nation invaded any of the three treaty nations, it was the same as invading all three nations.

No they didn't have that and no it didn't say that.
Amanda91 1 | 135    
7 Aug 2009  #113

What do you mean? They didn't have what? Just in case you mean the treaty, yes they did but it doesn't change my opinion about the reality of the situation in that time. I repeat, no one was able to help Poland.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
7 Aug 2009  #115

What do you mean? They didn't have what? Just in case you mean the treaty, yes they did

There was not a single treaty and the treaties which there were did not say "if a nation invaded any of the three treaty nations, it was the same as invading all three nations".
joepilsudski 26 | 1,394    
7 Aug 2009  #116

Here’s the basic timeline:

Only one thing about the timeline: I see no arrival of 'allied' troops on Polish soil...I guess Poland was too far away, and it would have been inconvenient to get there...So much for 'allies'.
Amanda91 1 | 135    
7 Aug 2009  #117

There was not a single treaty and the treaties which there were did not say "if a nation invaded any of the three treaty nations, it was the same as invading all three nations".

users.bigpond.com/battleforAustralia/historicalbackground/beginningofWW2.html
read the line : This British commitment to Poland became a formal treaty on 25 August 1939.

en.allexperts.com/q/European-History-670/WW2-TREATY-POLAND-FRANCE.htm

history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa090399.htm
Wroclaw Boy    
7 Aug 2009  #118

users.bigpond.com/battleforAustralia/historicalbackgr ound/b eginningofWW2.html

Interesting read nice one Amanda.
Amanda91 1 | 135    
7 Aug 2009  #119

indiana.edu/~league/1939.htm

another 1 here
Babinich 1 | 457    
8 Aug 2009  #120

No. It had nothing at all to do with that. The elections which the Poles should not have tried to organise took place on 26 January 1919. The Polish-Soviet war hadn't started then.

Next excuse please.

Sorry Harry...

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9506E6D61039E13ABC4D53DFB4668382609EDE




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