Why Poland employers are afraid of hiring any foreign nationals?

Again, read the post. I said "no doubt his English was beautiful". Nothing about good or bad, let alone excellent or terrible. Sometimes terrible English spoken by foreigners can be beautiful. I've heard Poles say that about Polish too.


Again, read the post.

You are confusing prose style with literary themes.


A much bigger generalisation to say they don't. In the area on the map in your post you'll find tens of thousands of people who speak better English than the best of those non-natives who are often teaching it.

What makes you think that either the Brummie speaker in your youtube clip of a dialect example or Zbigniew Brzezinski (a very odd and artificial comparison) are a) qualified or b) willing to teach?

And who'd be better teaching Polish, a gorale from the mountains with a thick accent and dialect transference or Norman Davies?

Correct !!!

You actually said "the standards where you were employed were low. I'm guessing the time frame was 5 years ago or more, the farther back the time frame you taught, the more likely it is that the standards weren't what they are today" I did not stop teaching five years ago, so you were wrong with your estimate and now you are lying about what you said. Pathetic.


No, it is my professional experience based on a decade and a half of working with, training, recruiting and assessing Polish teachers. Despite being asked, you have failed to tell us what you are basing your opinions on. Do tell us, how much experience do you have in this industry? How many years have you spent training Polish teachers?


Oh look, it's somebody else with more than a decade's experience working with, recruiting and assessing English teachers. And strangely enough his views are identical to mine. Hmm, could it be that the people whose jobs it is to know what they are talking about assess the situation in a particular way?


And I am happy to disclose what experience I have in this sector. Why are you so unwilling to do the same? Could it be that you have bugger all experience and are simply mouthing off about something you know sod all about? It certainly looks that way.

Both of which are Conrad's.


Both are generalizations and both would be wrong.


It's irrelevant what they want to do. The question is would Brummie be regarded a better choice for a TEFL than Brzezinski. I'd vote for the latter.


A simple answer is impossible.
How old would that shepherd be?
What kind of contact with "literary Polish" has he had?
What is his educational background?
Did that background made him aware of linguistic issues faced by the foreigners he might be teaching?

In general I'd feel safer with Davies. His Polish sounds impressive.

In many instances native Poles don't come even close to understanding what some Gorale (the Podhale sheherds) say.

My questions are above and I won't edit them. Run them through a translator if you don't understand.

Dariusz, what does Conrad have to do with Polish employers being afraid to hire foreigners? Please make use of the PM facility.

No idea.
I am responding to the posts by others. I feel honored though that you asked me.

Fair enough though so back to the topic.
I am not a Polish employer in Poland so I can only speculate about the answer to the question why the (most?) don't. It's the language. We may argue whether Polish is the 5th hardest to learn, or the 100th hardest. The fact remains it is not an easy language for most foreigners. The difference is that you could speak crappy English but still be able to put your point across. That would be much harder in Polish.

I wrote a while ago about my first attempt to pass a driver's license test in New Jersey. I spoke decent English but while I could divulge on the Puritan elements in the Jass Age in the US, I had no idea about driving tests in English. I selected a Polish version of the test. I failed. I understood the words but I had no clue what they were asking. The next day I took an English version and I passed 19/20.

I cannot fathom how anyone could hold a position of substance (fruit picking, as an example, is not a position of substance) without being able to communicate.

Despite Jessie's voice being heard across his prose style...


Actually your example is a generalisation whereas mine stands up to logical reasoning. Look at the area. How many people live there? How many have strong local accents? How many are educated? Have you ever been to Solihull? Selly Oak? Chad Valley? Edgebaston? Do you think the people there sound like your youtube clip?


Hardly :-)))

There are plenty of people from the Black Country teaching EFL, though I've never heard (yet) that Zbigniew Brzezinski's been giving lessons.


Depends on their pedagogical skills - their ability to teach a language. Since you've cited Brzezinski as an example, perhaps you can illuminate us on the matter of his teaching skills as an EFL teacher.


He used to teach A Level Polish, to ethnic Poles in London.


Me too. And I know plenty of Polish people here in Warsaw who speak very coarse and regional Polish.

You see, TIT, Dariusz had the decency to get things back on track and I thank him for that. How I have influenced my wife is my business. Travel and language are the 2 main ones.

Dariusz, it's the language aspect for sure. Many oldies just don't use English, especially in smaller towns. They don't feel comfortable connecting with non-Poles.

And your posts on this matter don't exactly scream noblesse oblige.

That voice is accompanied by the voices of countless others Conrad came across in his life. That is called life's experience. Using this argument one might turn around and say that a lot of vices Poles are accused of (justly or not) are a foreign influence, mostly American. After all, most watched American movies, many met Americans. How ironic that Anglo types will point out how Poles benefit from the good foreign influence, but ring the alarm bell when the subject turns into the not so good things in Poland. Suddenly most foreigners wash their hands are are overwhelmed by their saintly halos.

As for Conrad, ultimately it was Conrad's style and prose we admire, not Jessie's. And, to be fair with the other example, Polish thieves are not Americanized Poles but simply Polish thieves.


You're not reading me?
I'll try to spell it out in plain English.
Not all native speakers of English will be better teachers of English. Some Poles teaching English will be better at it. I'm not sure how this is a generalization.


That's a desperate comment. The issue is not whether Brzezinski did or would teach, but whether he would be more suitable for the job than a native British punk with the vocabulary resources amounting to 5 words, 3 of them in deeply localized slang.


For one, he had to learn English so he is aware of the issues faced by Poles trying to do the same.


My assessment was correct then.

Of course! But only one of those was a published female writer who was married to him. And corrected his English.


Naughty - you're creating a strawman. I called you on your examples., specifically the accent clip from youtube. "Not all natives" and "some Poles". is a whole different thing. The matter was that you were denying that tens of thousands of people living in the region in the map you posted can speak better English than a Polish person teaching it. Do you still think that?

But I'm glad you're coming round to my point of view.


Interesting you mention punks. Answer these questions carefully please.

How many punks do you think work as teachers?
How many native speaker Teachers have a vocabulary of "5 words, 3 of them in deeply localized slang"
Would you prefer lessons from a teacher with post-graduate teaching qualifications and experience in teaching their own language or a foreign policy specialist from a different country?


Actually my assessment, but don't let facts get in the way of truth.

You need to read more on Conrad. He had some guidance indeed, but it was a guy. Keep on looking. Hint" later in their live's they did not like each other all that much.


It's not a different thing. On a few occassions I stressed the word "some". Read a few posts back. Of course by linking to a you tube flick I pointed out how SOME Brits talk. Those clips did not contain speech samples of ALL Brits in the areas in question.


Irrelevant to my argument in which I reject the idea that being a native speaker automatically makes you a better material for a TEF than ever single Pole.


You didn't present an assessment. I did. You offered what I accept as a fact I was unaware of.

Strange you think that. Most people wouldn't.


Nothing new to me. What is evidently new to you is his wife's influence and role. In this respect he was not unique at that time.


I'm glad you've conceded, and accepted what I was saying.


Being a native certainly gives a pretty good headstart.


Which I offered as an example to back up my assessment. Checkmate.

I know. Most people would go to see The Avatar.


I may have, and I managed to do so without showing any change in my opinion :)


That it does. But that is not all it takes.


So you have no idea about chess either? :)
You asked me who I would pic as a teacher, a Podhale shepherd or Davies. I opted for Davies, not even knowing he did teach Polish. How is all that your assessment, but not mine?

TIT, I've worked in more than teaching schools here so my skillset is more rounded than you think. Proofreading, voice recording and some translating work make up the rest of what I have done here. They had no reservations about hiring me.

Nice to have a rounded CV, lovely jubbly. You sound like a troll that used to write here. Your 'lacking' style gives you away, TIT.

TIT, I still think some Poles can be and are better teachers of English than some Brits, but after a couple of years of bouncing around these forums I would have more than enough confidence to recommend Seanus over most Polish teachers of English. The man appears highly competent as a teacher, and he also speaks Polish, which is an added advantage when teaching to that linguistic group.

OK, I got some leftover walnut scraps from a coffee table I made so I'll take a break from this thread and I'll make a step stool, or something.

I think it goes without question that some Polish teachers are better than British teachers, especially when it comes to the somewhat dubious process of hiring native speakers. Some highly incompetent ones are picked up. It's less of a gamble to hire a Pole and they also must undergo more observations. There is more than a shred of truth in the fact that quite a few native speakers tend to drink too much and are lacking in methodological awareness. I'm not saying we should be like Harmer and overanalyse but some appreciation of the group dynamic is needed.

Furthermore, if we are to tailor their skills to the needs of the industry, we can see that a knowledge of CPE is not needed. The 4 Polish teachers who work at the school I work at don't teach the higher levels on a regular basis, just in case those students try and get clever and catch them out. I have faith in their abilities to do so, though. Likewise, I don't teach the lower levels though I could given that I've taught absolute beginners in 3 different places.

TIT, I make it my business to teach them new things. Teaching is a selfless business oftentimes and I'm happy to give them pointers and new language.

Oh, thanks for the compliment, Dariusz :) :)

Isn't that some sort of 3D cartoon?


Gradually actually, over several posts, when you realised you were not only wrong but indefensibly so.


It takes ability and training. Which native speaker Teachers necessarily have in order to do the job. The English language is highly nuanced - and with a vocabulary double that of French. A non-native can never understand evry subtlety. There is also the matter of being able to co-ordinate and manage courses as part of a wider picture.


Rude, rude. And wrong.


A shepherd? What shepherd? Read the post. Or maybe you're just being woolly.


As you were meant to. It would be alarming if you chose otherwise.


A leading question, since my premise was right - that ability is more important than accent.

And this is one of the things that I think is often underestimated - I've taken on a new job with six different groups, all of which need to have a plan for 6 months with a final exam at the end. And **** me - it's difficult. I've never had to do this before (always followed textbooks) and it's safe to say that it's one of the more difficult things to do. I'm just getting to grips now with it - but it's not been easy!

Having said this, one particular trait of Polish directors seems to be a complete and utter inability for them to understand that sometimes, you have to drastically change from the set programme. I'm really not sure why - especially when the students are happy!

You know, I just deleted the list of countries and places where I've worked and I also deleted the time line as well. I am completely confident in my position and don't need your validation. It wouldn't matter what I wrote, you'd attempt to dismiss it.

You'll have to accept I have reasons for coming to the conclusions that I've come to. Try to deal with it as best you can. Let me know if you need a soother and a blanket and I'm sure I can have 1 delivered to your doorstep.

It's funny though, you're saying you've been training Polish teachers and based on your experience they're not very good? Well the apple doesn't fall far from the tree now does it?

oh forgive it was just a joke, i know what you're really trying to say but it was there- I had to


What's pathetic would be you inability to comprehend the message despite your recent paraphrase. You lied, misread, or misinterpreted what was written. You've only begun your attempted diatribe on the matter because you've been discovered (not for the first time I assume) to be either a liar or an idiot. Warm to the feeling, it appears your lot in life.

I'm generally not so abrasive but I think this isn't the first time you've been referred to in such a manner.

you can't really generalize a couple of employers and say it's everyone. just look around and present yourself in a good light and you will be ok.

You mean the Pole/Ukranain (lets get it right) that spent only a short period of his life in Poland? Lets face it he was more British than Polish :D


Accents can vary depending on what side of a town you live, what kind of parents you have, what school you attended and a whole host of other things...You are surmising that every person living in one particular area will speak exactly the same...You really do know next to nothing about England and how we speak.

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FaaBVjKMPvk

Maybe this is the reason, the Chav Factor :) Still, some Polish chavs got hired abroad so there is hope yet for the Chav Brigade.

My post stating the fact was at 7.49. Your first post in this thread was 8 hours and 29 minutes later. You need put away whatever it is you're on.


No shhit. And which language isn't?


Sure. And up to 70% of those words in English are of Latin origin and Entered English via French.


Nobody can understand ever subtlety. Some exceptions may be old, old fellas who spent their whole lives doing nothing but studying subtleties of their own language. A lot of native speakers in any language won't notice linguistic subtleties when the subtleties hit them in their azsses. And we don't have to look far for the examples. Just read your posts. But... on the seond thought you wouldn't get it anyway.


You are on drugs, puppy. Indeed, read the posts. Start with the first oe where you expressed your interest in Polish folklore.


That wasn't YOUR premise. It is a well know fact. Known a lot longer before you decided to join this thread.


He was born a Pole. You are are a little lost in the history of Ukraine, aren't you?


I'm not sure how you could quantify that. The important fact is the man didn't speak the language until he was in his twenties. English was his 3rd language. And when he eventually did speak it, he spoke with a Polish accent, not Ukrainians. Do all British people speak with a Polish accent?


That's an incorrect conclusion that you have reached there. I never said such thing. The point is that some Brits speak such poor English that the last thing they should do is teach English.

As another poster mentioned here, when we talk about teaching English, the stress is on "teaching". Some Poles (and other non-native speakers of English) will do the job better than some native speakers of the language.

Back again, and still rude.


English far more so than most. But then you know that.


A little less, but you're on the right track. Not that that affects anything. By the same logic you could talk about the quantity of Polish words that are of Russian origin.


Some of us can.


Rude again. You always do that when you're losing an argument, usually with Harry. Some would call it a cultural stereotype about Poles, however I understand you're in fact Canadian.


You mention drugs an awful lot. And shepherds. God alone knows why. Go back through the thread - really. No shepherds or Polish folklore, whatever that means.


Actually it was, ever since you quoted that Black Country youtube clip. My point is that native speakers, real ones, regardless of regional accent are preferable to non-natives, even the ones who practise their accents. They never quite get it right.


I understand his accent reflected his travels.


This however is very very rare. They are few and far between and never quite authentic.

To Daz:

Conrad didnt even have a Polish accent :D

As a result, he developed a southern French accent which would later strongly color his English

home.earthlink.net/~apousada/id4.html

Hence your mentioning the number of words in a given language has no bearing on how hard or easy it is to learn. Out of hundreds of thousands ow words in an average IE language and average, educated person will be familiar with 20 to 50,000 of those - a relatively small percentage.


Some can indeed. I would not be daring enough to say some of "us", and sufficiently informed that to include you in the exclusion.


Harry doesn't offer arguments. He offers hatred and keeps repeating the same crap all, day in, day out.


How can you tell a difference?


That's what your wrote in this post. Of course you lack the integrity to keep it honest and clean. So much for rudeness, huh?


Preferable to who? Perhaps to a linguist. Surely not to your average student. When I taught in the US I was asked to shed my British (RP) "accent" and switch to something more American. Mainstream language schools are not linguistics study centers.


I don't know the statistics. I concentrated on the possibility and the possibility exists. In fact native Poles, who are better teachers of Polish than some of their British counterparts, do exists too.


You had to do a lot of googling and it took eventually made you go to Jamaica to fell alright :-). At least you have a sense of humor.

Some of his closest associated even thought Conrad's accent was Asian. That of course stemmed from their own linguistic ignorance.

Conrad's linguistic background has been often commented on in literature. This is a sample from

"...A detailed analysis of Conrad's style indicates that some of his more noticeable non-native-sounding syntactic choices reflect the semantics inherent in the morphology of Polish aspect. Readers have often noted Conrad's unusual choice and placement of adverbs, particularly those indicating frequency and duration. Morzinski attempts to show that Conrad was attempting to express the features of Polish aspect by pressing the equivalent adverbial lexical items into his sentences, causing an otherwise native-like fluency to take on the non-native characteristic recognized as foreign flavor in his style." (Mary Morzinski. The Linguistic Influence of Polish on Joseph Conrad's Style.)

That chav song was the goods. Hahah.

No more in 2019. Polish employees hire foreigners willingly coz economy is thriving, the unemployment is very low and 2 million Poles have left for abroad.

However, there are still cases when some premises issue scandalous ads, like this one in Gdynia where they were looking for a chef except "Ukrainian or another like that" They had to apologise after a huge negative response. And will probably face legal consequences, too.

tvn24.pl/lodz,69/gdynia-szukali-kucharza-nie-chcieli-ukraincow-czy-innych-podobnych,963189.html