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Poland's apartment prices continue to fall


OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
25 Mar 2012 /  #631
This is what I call a crash.:-

Agreed.

Spanish official figures show quiet a modest fall in prices, Tinsa shows the general fall is 25% and 33% on the Costas. The official figures being bullocks, of course, most observers claim a 50%++ fall.

They've learned their lesson and are not pushing it on foreign speculators any more, but cater it to local population by providing more job opportunities.

As I understand it the holiday homes for foreigners are of no use to locals as they are hundreds of km away from any jobs (potentially of now) and far too expensive even when discounted.

Construction in Spain has all but stopped dead. They are still building in Poland

If you look at the PDF with falling city prices the next chart showing the significant increase unsold stock in Poland. But I agree that Poland is no where near the situation in Spain or Ireland; in Poland there are not many holiday homes for speculators, there is a fundamental pent up demand from locals and a modest amount of new builds. Which is why I think any 'crash' will be quickly recovered in Poland.

I have no idea who these people are, but they call Poland's market the second worst in Europe
and claim >10% falls in 2011

Already posted.

I can't take them seriously because the 'real' price falls are garbage - inflation is measured nationally yet the real prices vary city to city and inflation is several percent per year so real should be much different from nominal prices.

Having said that, its conclusions are pretty spot on.

Soft landing? That depends on Germany

In summary,the Polish housing market is experiencing a severe after-boom consolidation. This is not necessarily bad news. The housing market may be overbuilt, but the demographics are moving in the right direction. On the other hand, a large proportion of Polish housing loans are denominated in foreign currency, undoubtedly, a risk.

However while most of Europe is struggling to avoid a double-dip recession, the Polish economy is growing. Its depreciated currency makes its products attractive to buyers.

Workers are moving back to Poland, according to recent OCDE data. Unemployment was 9.6% in 2011, and is expected to rise to 9.9% in 2012, but this is lower than in many European countries. This factor should not be neglected. Migration dynamics are a fundamental demand driver for urban housing markets, particularly for urban areas such as Warsaw, Krakow and Wroctaw characterized by significant in-migration rates.

Avalon  4 | 1063  
25 Mar 2012 /  #632
Avalon, I think that's an old video, at least 4 years.

This is the latest thing I could dig up from a year ago.The video does not really matter, only so far as to prove a point that nothing like this has happened in Poland. It would be interesting to know how many of the "thousands" of new properties that remain unsold here, were for the higher end of the market (investors) . I did read a couple of years back that only 10% of the flats being built at that time were what were termed as "affordable", have these properties now sold?, is it only the up-market flats waiting to find a buyer? is this why the developers are now aiming for small flats in the 5,000-6000 m2 range?

In the United States, Ireland, The UK and Spain the media has been quick to report on the hundreds of thousands of repossessions and that the number is likely to rise year by year as no solution is found to the debt crises, I find it strange Milky that the Polish Media has suppressed the news here, perhaps its because it has not happened.
Krakman  4 | 58  
26 Mar 2012 /  #633
is this why the developers are now aiming for small flats in the 5,000-6000 m2 range?

Is this the total figure for the whole development? How many apartments would that area generally contain and would it be a single building, or part of a complex?
cms  9 | 1253  
26 Mar 2012 /  #634
You don't need to put your thousands in inverted comments. The numbers of unsold apartments has already been shown.

Yes there are luxury properties there but also many standard developments, especially in the larger provincial towns.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
26 Mar 2012 /  #635
You don't need to put your thousands in inverted comments.

This was done for Milky who insists that there are millions, not thousands.

Is this the total figure for the whole development? How many apartments would that area generally contain and would it be a single building, or part of a complex?

The figures are monetary amounts, not sizes.

[quote=cms]The numbers of unsold apartments has already been shown.

Do you have a link to these figures, as a percentage say for the ones below 6,000 per m2 and the ones above?
milky  13 | 1656  
26 Mar 2012 /  #636
The fact of the story, in relation to the topic is...
Prices are still falling,and are falling faster than most places in Europe. In my view they will continue on this downward spiral, especially if Poles abroad keep returning home, as prices will then have to reflect polish wages.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
26 Mar 2012 /  #637
In my view they will continue on this downward spiral, especially if Poles abroad keep returning home, as prices will then have to reflect polish wages.

Which have been rising on a yearly basis.
bullfrog  6 | 602  
26 Mar 2012 /  #638
especially if Poles abroad keep returning home

which mean they will have to find a new abode which will push prices up...
milky  13 | 1656  
27 Mar 2012 /  #639
new abode

Most that moved, moved pre-2007 so they already purchased during the frenzy property bubble. Poland's young population are now (stating the obvious) aging and are now looking for property(obviously). They will be demanding pre-2005 prices or simply renting or staying at home with the Waltons.

Reports like below, are very accurate and are a direct contrast to the positive information being pumped into the media about how Poland has being doing so well avoiding recession,low unemployment etc..

joinricsineurope.eu/uploads/files/EHRfullreport_1.pdf
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
27 Mar 2012 /  #640
From the site you provided (did you actually read it?):

Hit for hit on your points.
pip  10 | 1658  
27 Mar 2012 /  #641
Hit for hit on your points.

I am giggling. Let's see how he spins this.
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
27 Mar 2012 /  #642
Let's see how he spins this.

Simply by focusing on high end apartments in city centres prices from 4 years ago (peak).

By focusing on the slow down in the economy therefore unemployment figures, again for the last four years.

Ignoring the last 20 years,

By ignoring houses/apartments outside of the centres of cities.

Apartments outside of the cities are affordable and it's cheap enough to get transport into the cities.

I lived in a town for years 35 Km from Krakow, the cost of transport, return, is 7 Zloty.

Most Polish people live in the Polish countryside, jobs are mainly in the cities and so there is an urban influx over the past 20 years.

I personally think that the economic slowdown in Poland was great for Poland, Ireland did not have a slow down, prices skyrocketed and burst.
If there was no World recession, I fear Poland would have most certainly gone the same way but it didn't.

Anyway, this is a forum, it's not as if anyone is going to reconsider their position, so all of this is really just farting in the wind :)
Avalon  4 | 1063  
27 Mar 2012 /  #643
Maybe the mods changed it because they want to talk up the market?. The report also left out the bit about the crash and property bubble so you cannot really have any faith in it.
pip  10 | 1658  
27 Mar 2012 /  #644
I thought the article was pretty good when describing the market. It did mention a lot of different situations- outskirts with no infrastructure, private builds, and developers as well as high end.

It is quite thorough.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
27 Mar 2012 /  #645
This is the REAS report til the end of 2011. Not certain if it has already been linked.

media.reas.pl/file/mediakit/373984/86/reas-residential-market-in-poland-q4-2011.pdf

Demand and prices
In 2011, investment demand was
insignificant, and the vast majority of buyers
made conscious purchase decisions in order
to satisfy their own housing needs.

Bottom line is that there is no simple answer, sales are up and prices down. Not a crash, but not a boom, as yet.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
27 Mar 2012 /  #646
Not a crash, but not a boom, as yet.

Has anyone said there is a boom, or predicted one?

In 2011, investment demand was
insignificant, and the vast majority of buyers
made conscious purchase decisions in order
to satisfy their own housing needs.

This part of the survey is exactly what I have been saying for over two years now. If you need a roof over your head and can afford it, you buy.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
27 Mar 2012 /  #647
If you need a roof over your head and can afford it, you buy.

Indeed, and prices are falling, unsold stock ..unsold.

So you are correct, but so is milky.
pip  10 | 1658  
27 Mar 2012 /  #648
So you are correct, but so is milky.

but the link he supplied doesn't support his opinion of a bubble.
scottie1113  6 | 896  
27 Mar 2012 /  #649
That's because there is no bubble. He just doesn't get it.
InWroclaw  89 | 1910  
27 Mar 2012 /  #650
Can't compare Ireland to Poland...

prices fall to third of boom figure
Last Updated: 27th March 2012
APARTMENTS in Dublin have fallen to just over one third of their price at the height of the boom.

New figures from the Central Statistics Office revealed that prices have dropped by 62 per cent since February 2007 - the biggest property casualty of the recession.

Dublin house prices have fared almost as badly - nosediving by 56 per cent in the last five years.

,,,can we?

Wish I knew.
pip  10 | 1658  
28 Mar 2012 /  #651
you can't compare Poland to anything, really. It seems to be following its own rules with regards to real estate.
Avalon  4 | 1063  
31 Mar 2012 /  #652
as prices will then have to reflect polish wages.

I wonder if prices will reflect Cuban wages? Milky, it seems like the brothers are all jumping on the bandwagon, must be human nature.

Now many homes in Havana are being sold at $250 per square metre - 12 times the average monthly wage of $20.
One family, Yoel Cruz and his father are selling their three bedroomed house for $22,000, more than a thousand times their monthly income of $19.
Mr Cruz told The Times: 'It's incredible. In Cuba incomes are very low and house prices are very high.

Read more:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122601/Cuban-property-market-booms-house-buying-allowed-time-1959-Revolution.html#ixzz1qgC6gK7G
InWroclaw  89 | 1910  
31 Mar 2012 /  #653
Cuban property, such as in Havana, is most probably being purchased by expat Cubans in Florida etc through various family links. Wages in the US are generous, so it's not a hardship for them financially at all
Avalon  4 | 1063  
31 Mar 2012 /  #654
I was just pointing out for the people who keep harping on about the relationship between multiples of wages and house prices.If you follow Milky's logic, its the foreigners who are to blame for pushing up property prices in Poland.. It's the same the whole world over, people will try to get as much as they can, not just in Poland.
OP peterweg  37 | 2305  
31 Mar 2012 /  #655
the relationship between multiples of wages and house prices

You use Cuba as proof? Please..
Avalon  4 | 1063  
31 Mar 2012 /  #656
In your desperation to make yourself look intelligent you have jumped the gun, I am not trying to prove anything, merely pointing out that Poland is not the only country where property prices seem extremely high in relationship to wages.

Just stating a fact. If you have nothing to say then allow others to comment.
milky  13 | 1656  
31 Mar 2012 /  #657
relationship between multiples of wages and house prices

You are talking about a lot of people, Peter Schiff, david McWilliams (there are quite a few Laffer types on here)
youtube.com/watch?v=GnCtav9OsV8

, its the ^^^^^^^ foreigners^^^^^^^^^^^ who are to blame for pushing up property prices in Poland..

As usual twisting the facts. Not surprising for a Thatcherite developer in Poland.

Poles working abroad and foreign investment by casino capitalist and people trying to make a quick buck,

,FOREIGNERS lol
Avalon  4 | 1063  
31 Mar 2012 /  #658
As usual twisting the facts.

I said "If you follow Milky's logic, its the foreigners who are to blame for pushing up property prices in Poland."

In Jan you said "Poles abroad, foreign investors etc (sick of making this point)"

How is that twisting the facts?
BRS  2 | 48  
31 Mar 2012 /  #659
Peter Schiff

FYI - Peter is calling for inflation and prices increasing now - recommending gold to hedge inflation
milky  13 | 1656  
1 Apr 2012 /  #660
Some first quarter result

average price gone down 3.1 % for January /February
Mortgages getting much more difficult to attain,for most ,practically impossible.

oferty.net/raporty/5828

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