Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

The fact remains that Poland's prewar constitution was ended by military occupation, and its people unable to return to a democratic nation until recently. Even then, the prewar constitution was not restored, and the present constitution was not amended from the pre-war constitution. Under that document, as far as I know, Lech Wałęsa is still the president of the Second Polish Republic. He might still have a role to play in this.


No, it was Stalin who changed Poland's constitution. We are still seeing the game play out.

It doesn't work like that in Polish law. If you look back at the Lublin Declaration, it derived authority from the 1921 Constitution (not the illegally implemented 1935 Constitution) - which in turn was the basis for the 1952 Constitution, the 1989 amendments, the 1992 Small Constitution and the 1997 Constitution. If you look at the Government-in-Exile, it was never considered to be fully sovereign under international law, not least because of the lack of territory. Anyway, Wałęsa derived his authority from the 1952 Constitution as amended and not the 1935 one. This much is clear, not least because there were no legal acts incorporating the Government-in-Exile into the III RP as it existed in December 1990.

You need to distinguish between symbolic and legal when it comes to Polish law.


That game has finished as far as the vast majority of people in Poland are concerned.

Even those that support the idea of the IV RP (mostly) seek to bring it about through changing the 1997 Constitution.

Anyway, I still don't see what the problem is. The Constitutional Tribunal has ruled that three of the judges must receive their oaths immediately, and that should be the end of the matter.

Exactly the problem with everything you write. It is all delusional. The Lublin declaration came from Stalin's puppets, and implemented by the occupying Soviet Army without regard for popular sovereignty. Lech Wałęsa is still the president under the 1935 constitution, which had the popular support of the Polish population throughout the war and in its aftermath. The Constitutional Tribunal is essentially a communist organ and should be considered accordingly.

The amateurisz makeshift 1921 constituion introduced chaos and mayhem on the Polish political scene. 12 different governments arose nad fell within a short space of time. Long-winded tirades, constant squabbling and even fist fights erupted in the Sejm and police had to be called in to remove unruly MPs. The assassination of Poland's first president occurred in that genral climate of anarchy. Piłsduski called it Sejmokracja -- a strong but reckless parliament and a weak week govenrmetn -- and onlyhis 1926 coup restored order. The 1935 constituion strengthened the executive and would have produced a strong and stable Poland were it not for Herr Hitler and tovarishch Stalin.


True legitimacy could be derived only from the 3rd of May Constitution. The US Constituioin comes from that very same era and remains in force with a few amendments thrown in to this day. Post-PRL Poles made the mistake of not invoking that landmark document for inspiration.

The only delusional person is you, given that you base your arguments on Wikipedia and not law.

The 1935 Constitution didn't have popular support, given that it was introduced under a dictatorship and in a Sejm that was elected as a result of a rigged election. It was what it was, and perhaps not the worst thing given the political realities of the time, but you can't claim that it was in any way legitimate. This is why - if you know anything about Polish law - they chose to follow the PRL version of constitutional theory because it linked back to the legitimate 1921 Constitution. Wałęsa also ran his office according to the 1952/1992 Constitutions and not the 1935 one.

More to the point, you'll struggle to find anyone in Poland agreeing with the idea that Wałęsa is still the President.

The Constitutional Tribunal is not a "communist organ" at all, given that it derives legitimacy from the 1997 Constitution, which makes it clear that it was enacted with the will of the Polish Nation. I suggest you go away and stick to American politics rather than trying to come up with far-fetched ideas of President Wałęsa giving legitimacy to Duda.


Didn't the 1921 one derive legitimacy from the May 3rd one?

But the Kwaśniewski one certainly did not.

It certainly did, given that it derived legitimacy from the 1921 one.

In truth, that constitution was a national disaster for Poland and led to the partitions. However, things might have gone smoother had they decided to reform that constitution, rather than create a new one. It set a bad precedent. Both the 1791 and 1935 constitutions ended with partitions, and were never properly amended to their successors.


Contrary to communist propaganda, the 1935 constitution was necessary to protect the nation following Hitler's rise across the border, together British and French appeasement, and the Red Menace to the East. If the French had ever attacked the Germans, things would have been different. Poland's enemies detest a strong chief executive, and prefer a spineless jellyfish.


The Ukrainians have followed the example of the 1921 constitution with their decorum in their in their parliamentary debates.


And Kwaśniewski was a communist, but he kept the Trybunał Konstytucyjny which came from Jaruzelski's government in 1982.


HA HA HA!


telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/7583063/Ryszard-Kaczorowski.html

Kaczorowski transferred his powers under the 1935 constitution to Wałęsa, giving him the Presidential banner, sashes, and seal, along with the original handwritten copy of he 1935 constitution to Wałęsa. Until he transfers his powers to someone else, or that constitution is restored in Poland, Wałęsa remains the president of the Second Polish Republic.

The 3rd of May Cosntituion itself was a modern and progressive document for its day which gave rights to all social classes for the first time and included Montesquieu's tri-partite governance. It was a good attempt to reverse the decompositon of the state caused by years of warring, Saxon misrule and internal anarchy perpetuated by "liberum veto". It was precisely because Poland's absolutistically ruled neighbours feared the "democratic Polish cancer" would spread to their countries that they nipped the situation in the bud through the partitions.

Agreed. It is something to be proud, but it did lead to the partitions.

Jeez. What a lot of bs. Why didn't they protest against the constitution before then? The possibility of "18% of Polish adults" choosing government to rule was literally always there? They're vocal now and demonstrate against the way of voting which is fundamental in democracy. Hypocrites praising democracy only when it works in their favour. Grow a pair, accept the outcome and live with it.

When you consider that many in Polonia have Polish citizenship but don't vote, the number could be lower. For people tracing their citizenship back to a grandfather, or great-grandfather, the cost and time to have citizenship recognized can be expensive and long. PO de facto discriminated against ethnic Poles in favor of newly settled foreigners by giving the latter citizenship, while a Polish citizen from emigres can easily get caught in an endless circle of the Polish bureaucracy, which needs to be experienced to understand how difficult that task can be.

Nobody is protesting against the constitution. People are protesting against the way that a regime that won the votes of 18% of Polish voters is openly breaking the constitution.


What an interesting view you have of European history. Do feel more than welcome to explain how a constitution published in early 1935 was a response to events that took place after that date.


So we need to add Polish citizenship law to the Polish legal concepts that you don't understand. Pity. Here's a help hint for you that will serve you well when you get to high school: don't rely on Wikipedia for your research, there are often people who have vested interests in making sure that Wikipedia articles are not accurate.

PO government ignored and broke 48 judgments of the Constitutional Court...where were all them pathetic democracy defenders?looks like its okey to ignore tribunal judgments as long as PO doing it

Except the Verkhovna Rada - "Supreme Council" or "Supreme Soviet" (although the latter translation is never used nowadays) doesn't trace back to the 1921 Polish Constitution, but rather earlier political systems that weren't part of Poland. If you want the direct linage, then it comes from the 1917 All-Ukrainian Congress of Soviets, which wasn't connected to Poland except in the struggle for territory. Obviously, you've got some severe issues with understanding the evolution of nation states.


It might have come to Poland then, but the concept of a Constitutional Tribunal comes from the French and German legal traditions.


You really don't get it, do you?

That was a symbolic act - it had no legal force whatsoever. Wałęsa was elected under the rules of the 1989 amendments and his Presidency operated under those rules until the 1992 Small Constitution was introduced. That's why there were constant problems during his Presidency, because the Presidency itself was rather ill-defined, unlike the 1935 Constitution.


PO didn't discriminate against anyone. The requirements for the recognition of Polish citzienship didn't change much between the 1962 and 2013 laws, except the latter made it more straightforward as there's no provision for the loss of Polish citizenship.


Yes, relying on Wikipedia and the English language media for his legal "knowledge" obviously isn't very helpful.

Update on demonstrations planned for Saturday 12th December

Since my first message, there have been new demonstrations planned in other Polish cities. All demonstrations are at 12.00 on 12/12/15.

Lublin - Plac Litewski 1
Wrocław - Plac Solny
Bielsko-Biała - Plac Chrobrego
Szczecin - Plac Grunwaldzki

Numbers are growing - and like I said before, I urge every foreigner that cares about this country to try and attend one of the demonstrations if they can. This isn't about being "anti-government", it's about defending our democracy and Constitution from the hands of people that want to destroy it.

do you plan do protest against PO illegally ignoring 48 Tribunal ruling in the past?and demand to bring those offenders to justice?just wondering

Why would we protest against something that didn't actually happen?

problem with you,is that you are an ignorant..maybe because you have limited sources,since you dont read in polish language.
PO ignoring and braking tribunal rulings and judgments is a very well known fact.they been using and misusing const tribunal for years..its all over polish media,and even PO sympathizing media cant and dont hide it. thats why PO shoot itself into foot,starting this "democracy defending" hysteria....all those dirty thingies from the past,are coming out for the public to see.

And when you attend do not forget that where the KOD supporters stand is where the ZOMO once stood. Decent patriotic Poles should position themselves on the opposite side in defence of the democratically elected government, not a bunch of hysterical poor losers trying to anarchise the country. Better yet, f*ck KOD and joint PiS' patriotic march on 13th December.

Absolute nonsense. Remember, it's PiS that appointed an ex-PZPR prosecutor to lead the human rights commission, not KOD.


Decent patriotic Poles should join KOD and get rid of this PRL-bis government as soon as possible. Patriotism isn't about shouting and abusing people on the streets - it's about being a decent human being who respects everyone and respects their country.

Saturday is coming...

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hopefully more than handful of people will actually show up. People tend to feel powerless in situations like this and take on the 'not my problem' and the "theres nothing we can do anyway" attitude. It takes a lot to get people out on the streets protesting.

I think is fitting that notorious troll like you, liar and imposter side with this post-communist trash, using solidarity sign that soviets are pathetic. .
Yes Saturday people are marching in support of freedom and independence starting at 11:00 Plac Trzech Krzyży.

especially , when the cause if one large pile of horsesh!t risen by hypocrites and crooks..need throw sum coin...where is soros when you need him?

Something is definitely stirring in the people - just looking at the abuse on this thread alone tells you that the supporters of PiS are afraid.


Ironside, you don't even live here, what do you care?


Poor Gregy. Numbers are growing, and we don't need no dollar.

You have no idea delph, their are playing with fire but they post-commies do not care, that could end with the civil war.
If you think that post-commie KOD what stirring you don't know people who support changes, they got enough and if they stir - there will be blood!

Luckily majority of Poles do not give a damn about those clowns and their demonstrations, that might change if their keep stirring.
I will hold you personally responsible if that happens, you needn't add you voice to hatemongering.

Civil war? Why, are PiS intending on using the military against civilian demonstrators? So be it - we'll at least have our confirmation that PiS = PRLbis.


Blimey Ironside, you've really made it clear recently that you support violence towards anyone that opposes the government.


Numbers are growing, Ironside. Numbers are growing.


Why not hold PiS responsible for breaking the constitution, abusing the law and behaving as if the country is their plaything?

Kettle & pot? It wasn't PiS who appointed an ex-commie to head up the TK. And when PiS wanted to de-communise the Tribunal it self-servignly ruled that was unconstitutional. A travesty of justice if there ever was one!

Rubbish. PiS didn't want to de-communise anything, as witnessed by their appointment of an ex-PRL and PZPR public prosecutor to lead the Human Rights Commission. They merely wanted to control the TK with their own puppets.

And there's no travesty of justice if the TK acts as the judge in constitutional issues. It's all in the Constitution - you could try reading it, especially Article 190, paragraph 1.

Now PO puppets run the show and rule in their own case. Like a murderer handing down a "not guilty" verdict on himself.