Demonstrations in Poland in defence of democracy.

Would that be in comparison to the media network that is controlled by PiS and outputs a considerable amount of heavily biased content in their favour? In fact, the way that PiS used the media that they control to attack KOD has been remarkable, and did nothing but strengthen the resolve of those involved in KOD.


I think anyone with half a brain can see that PiS have one aim - to fill every single position of power with their yes-men and to make sure that the country is run by them and them alone. Remember, it's PiS that want to abolish the independent civil service, it's PiS that want to put endless ex-PZPR men in positions of power, it's PiS that have proposed a bill in the Sejm that includes heavy monitoring of civilians without a court order and so on.

I was agreeing with you, but ideologues require 100% I guess....


I wasn't crazy about PO (for some of the same reasons you hate them) but compared to what happened to most neighboring former communist countries over the last ten years I don't think Poland's done that badly (I often go to Hungary for example and Orbanism isn't helping though he's better overall than his predecessors).

And... I don't think PiS has any better alternatives (as long as JK is pulling all the strings), and if they have to dismantle the law, then they're kind of admitting that right up front.

We will see after New Year how many Poles go to the streets against PIS shall we? How many do you think it will be


I have a steel door fitted and two electronic gates - to keep out unwanted visitors and that includes any government agency under this scum

Nobody cares how many bitter losers will go to the streets to cry, they can do it all 4 years long, it makes no difference to the reasonable Polish citizens.

If "nobody cares", the PiS-media has spent a considerable amount of time abusing them.

More to the point, any government will struggle to survive a mass popular movement against them.

The average Pole is little interested. Typical Poles now cringe when more stuff on TK, KOD or boring parliamentary debates are shown on TV. Only those with a vested interest (Soros beneficiaries or others who feel their profits will be adversely afected), politicans, media which thrive on controversy and news buffs (hobbyists) are more or less interested. The remaining 95% are not and even amongst the 5% interest will gradually fizzle out, because all not ranting and chanting will have no effect.


Only the over-politicised (the above-mentioned: politicians, media, vested-interest types & politcal buffs) incorrectly believe average people are crazy about political news on TV information programmes, love to be herded to the pollls or take part in street marches and demos. The average person's appetite and capacity for the above is actually quite limited.

What a low opinion you have of Polish citizens.... How on earth did such an apathetic bunch of cattle ever stare down (and win against) the CCCP?

Oh, wait, it was all the communists' doing and Poles were simply filling their assigned victim roles that you want them to play...

Just an observation, but the amount of attacks coming from ex-PZPR members who held prominent positions during PRL times is quite remarkable. I've just read yet another attack online from some guy who worked in the Milicja and then joined PiS. There's a definite theme here...

The most radical anticommunists are those you now rant and rave against. This is an unbearably difficult time for an opportunist.

Not really. PiS are horribly post-communist for all their claims to the contrary.

If PiS had any morals, they would make it clear that anyone that belonged to the PZPR in any capacity is prohibited from membership. Such an action would be commendable and would be hard to argue against.

OK. They are less radical than you are but more than any other big political party in Poland. Even Lech Wałęsa was member of ZMS - the Socialist Youth Union, they formed the youth faction of the Polish United Workers' Party.

Somehow PO never said that about ex-commie TK head Rzepliński, Balcerowicz and a host of others and became the current Sejm's largest PZPR sanctuary.

Who's raving? The pro-PiS activists seem to be following a "you're completely with us or completely against us" tack. Sorry, I'm not playing.

And I think they're mostly radical anti-communists after the fact, converted sinners as it were (who always bray the loudest about how pious they are).

I'm afraid that the crisis that Poland has avoided since 2008 will come crashing to the fore. It won't affect me too too much (knock on wood) but I'd rather it didn't happen.

The House of Lords can only delay legislation. It cannot veto anything. Nonsense yourself: There is no Constitutional Court in the UK to strike down legislation, in no small part because the U.K. has no actual constitution.


Technically it is a democratic republic with a figurehead as head of state and an impotent upper house. The House of Commons is de facto sovereign, which is why they slam the door on the Queen every time she tries to visit. In contrast Poland's Senate and President are far more democratic because they are elected. Britain's monarch and House of Lords are not.


In comparison, the only part of Poland's constitution which is undemocratic is the Constitutional Tribunal, and Poles are doing something about that. Only president Duda's signature is required to enact the law limiting factionalism on that court.

LE, you are talking rubbish.

The Lords can veto Parliments proposals, in fact they just did so in two laws the new Uk government wanted to introduce. Needless to say the Government (Parliment) are not happy to have their legislation rejected.

In the UK there isn't a explicitly written constitution. The law is set by politically independent judges who politicians must answer to, legal precedent is used as the basis of their judgement. The Treasury, the collecter of taxes, is also partly independant of Parliment.

FWIW, here are the stages of a Bill as its goes through to becoming UK law, in this case the Housing Bill.

services.parliament.uk/bills/2015-16/housingandplanning.html

Unfortunately, the editors of the Encyclopædia Britannica don't agree with you:


britannica.com/topic/House-of-Lords

Delaying the passage of a law for a year is not the same as a veto. It simply delays passage and is best described as "cooling saucer" of public sentiment and is clearly not as permanent as a veto, or the refusal to grant royal assent (which never happens in the U.K. anymore, and hasn't happened since 11 March 1708 for the simple reason that it is overtly anti-democratic). Rejection by the House of Lords is simply an embarrassment to the government in the Commons, like farting in church.


In the UK there is no actual constitution. It is an imaginary thing, not the least because no method is known for amending what doesn't exist. If there were one, we could all read it. We can't so you are writing nonsense.


The law is set by the House of Commons according to the doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty. The judges then attempt to determine what the legislature intended only if two laws conflict, like the law accepting admittance to the EU with subsequent laws which must be disapplied when they conflict. The politicians in the Commons answer only to the electorate, not the judiciary. (Although the same is not true of the legislatures created by the commons by "devolution".)

Since you, (and others posting here), are ignorant of the laws and political relationships between your own political organs, how do you attempt to pass judgment on those of foreign nation?

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34631156

Veto, delay for three years. The end result is the law doesn't get passed, in this case the government has abandoned the idea completely and resorted to whining.


It isn't a written constitution, like the joke the USA has, its a collection of laws and precedents. It proves that a functioning democracy doesn't need a written constitution.

If it occurred, it was only because the Commons had consented to it. Otherwise they had the right to ram it through the next year in the next session of Parliament. It wasn't a veto, just a political compromise. You don't know what a veto is and can't see it when it is present, and you appear to be challenged reading what you present as "fact".


As the saying goes, an oral contract isn't worth the paper on which its printed. That is even more the case of a constitution. As it relates to the undemocratic judiciary, except for the limited original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court to hear cases in "suits between two or more states and/or cases involving ambassadors and other public ministers," the U.S. federal courts have their jurisdiction limited by the Congress under the U.S. constitution. The Congress can prevent the U.S. Supreme Court from convening or increase the number of its Justices. It has happened in the past, and it is completely democratic.

You are telling me? LOL. Now bugger off back to your fast food and polish your guns and stop posting on legal matters you know nothing of. I can't laugh because I hurt my ribs playing handball, so please stop the ignorance for it hurts:)

The House of Lords chastises the government as to it's more controversial legislation. Of course the government has no requirement to take heed, and on occasion it doesn't.

More often that not though, on reflection, the legislation is "Watered down". But here we have you, Legal Eagle, who is a master on all things regarding the law - even in the UK.......

Amazing. You know all. Or rather I should say, you are...........

Nope, they most certainly did and do not. They wont try again, until the next Parliament in 5 years, if ever.


Not True

.


Missing the point, you don't need a constitution.


By your, American, definition of democracy. In the UK, and independent judiciary, free of political interference is the definition of democracy and freedom.

And Poland does not need a TK. The Supreme Court will do just fine!

Since when does the Polish Supreme Court review legislation?

what you're saying is that you're happy with the prospect of a particular political party having unchecked power.

Just realize this is what you wanted and don't complain about the all too predictable results.

The High Court's competence can be expanded through legislation. If other countries can do without a TK, so can Poland. If the UK can function quite nicely without a formal written constitution so too can Poland without a special separate tribunal to evalaute constitutionality. And think of the reduction of bureaucracy that would allow! Sadly, none of the major parties are truly interested in slashing red tape and cutting down on organisational units (except as a campaign promise they never intend to keep). How else can they reward their loyal cronies if not with cushy fatcat posts?!

The legal systems of the two countries make direct comparisons fatuous.


It's not in the interest of any political party in any country to actually cut down on bureaucracy because that would increase the unemployment rate. The combination of outsourcing to cheapter countries and massive increases in automation are having (and will continue to have) horrific effects on employment. Maintaining employment by the state is a conscioius tactic pursued by all political actors to help hide the true scope of unemployment (as is the need for more and more people to go to university).

A major problem that no one wants to think about is how to maintain some semblance of normalcy in a future in which a lot of people serve no productive purpose (as in there's no work they can do that machines and/or outsourced third-worlders can't do better and/or cheaper). Look up "Potomkin company" for one possible outcome.

And remember that major financial actors could not be doing this without the active and enthusiastic participation of the citizens in the countries who are and will be hit hardest by this. Liquid capital and technology devastating employment is not some conspiracy by a few elites, it's the result of billions and billions of market choices made by everyday people.

Hasn't any govt thought of legislation restricitng this? You want to automate? Fine but not if it means sackings. An automation watchdog could monitor this. All that's needed is the political will. And there's the problem. Politicians are mainly concerned about the perks and privileges of power (ie getting to and staying at the feed trough as long as possible) -- all else is just rhetoric ("I am only here to serve the people") and window dressing.

Trying to pass legislation will make a lot of people who aren't aware of this.... aware. No party wants to do that.


And popular support, that's where the problems will come. People like their cheap trinkets too much.

In Conversation with Noam Chomsky - A British Academy event

youtube.com/watch?v=1OGIJE8AzqM

The real problem is what to do about the effect that we don't live in political democracies; that's the real problem. So take the United States, which I know better and has been studied more intensively.

You can read an academic political science, not on the left. About 70% of the population, lowest 70% on the income scale, is entirely disenfranchised, meaning their opinions have zero impact on policy, even their own representatives, they are simply ignored - one of the reasons why they do not vote. I mean they may not read the scientific journals but they know it otherwise. As you move up the income scale you can start getting up a little more influence as measured by the relation between attitudes and policy. When you get to the very top, which is a fraction of one percent - policy is made. What kind of a system is that? I mean, does it matter if you pick one or another representative; sometimes it does at kind of way out at the margin, but the real problem is the nature of the system. I think England is not that much different.

Depends on how 'much' is. The defeat on Working Tax Credits was a defence of the poor by the House of Lords. The Conservatives were absolutely furious that their Parliamentary majority counted for nothing.

Working Tax Credits are a slightly shocking concept to give money to the lowest paid. That's not a policy of the top richest 20%, never mind the 1%

I agree. Thoroughly brainwashed people like their cheap trinkets too much. And nobody seems to be explaining to them the error of theri ways. The establishment (politicians, capitalists, media) want nothing else but to keep the people brainwashwed. Of course there are people so ignorant that they understand only bread and circus. But even the slightly better educated would be able to understand what's actually taking place. A huge brainwashing (advertising/marketing) machine is wrokign overtime to urge people to shop till they drop and clutter their homes with every manner of cheap, breakable and quickly obsolescent "Made in China" junk which will soon gert discarded and add to the global trash moutnain to be recycled so more cheap, breakable and quickly obsolescent "Made in China" junk can be foisted on a naive and willing humanity. Hardly no-one mentions that amount of our planet's natural resorces that have to be wasted to manufacture such rubbish nor the amount of fuel needed to recycle it, leaving an ecological crisis of unimaginable proportions for our children and grandchildren.

Another problem are the automation and technology freaks rendering people redundant. But what's more important -- the profits of greedy captialists or human lives? The comfortable and well-to-do Balcerowiczes of this world rode rough-shod over the Polish nation to carry out their pet economically liberal theories as if completely oblivious to the human pain and tragedy their double-digit unemployment had inflicted on their countymen. This not only means the loss of a livelihood but the civil execution of depriving the human person of his dignity. The automation and outsourcing freaks are doing the very same thing. Will we ever have a government with the guts to point out that and the salient points you have made about widespread disenfranchisement and actually do something about it? Kukiz's 20% in the presidential election clearly showed that there is a sizable segment of socveity thorough fed up with politics as we know it. He blew it by not offering a meaningful programme, but the ptoential still exists for someone else to finally enlighten the electiorate as to what's what.

The Conservatives were embarrassed enough that the unelected Lords were more charitable to the working poor than they were. The problem is not that their parliamentary majority counted for nothing, but that they are unwilling to use it in a years time to force the issue. That is all. It wasn't a veto, but is was a check.


Freedom and democracy are two independent concepts. Democracy means that the majority rules. Freedom means that the minority has rights that the ruling majority cannot easily alienate. An independent judiciary can serve as a check on the majority abusing the minority's rights. If that judiciary becomes politicized then another problem arises which is anti-democratic.


Which means that the EU is foolishly poking its nose into Poland's internal politics. Otherwise, they need to demand that the U.K. publish a real constitution and create a constitutional court which can strike down laws passed by the Parliament.


I am happy to be of service to educate you about how democracy works in your native land.


Ah, but if a nation doesn't need a constitution, then it doesn't need a Constitutional Tribunal either.

The lack of a constitution is a major problem with the EU. It is just a hodge-podge of treaties lacking a coherent structure and it has largely resorted to undemocratic judges striking down national laws in its never ending quest for the race to the bottom of neo-liberal utopia.