Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]

With the Earth's total human population currently around a staggering 7 billion and growing the question shouldn't be about importing more immigrants or having more children just to give job security to the likes of teachers and politicians who rely on large numbers of people for their own existence.

If it is a matter of younger people being needed to pay for the ever growing expenses and other benefits for older generations then the only logical move would be to make cuts and find other savings instead. It is unsustainable for any country to have continuously large populations especially when they are tending to live significantly long lives.

In a post-industrial era there is no need for lots of people anyway. Additionally, rich countries tend to be creditor nations and specialize in their export markets rather than needing a large domestic market. If Poland needs lots of people they should be tourists.

Poland and every other country have existed just fine with smaller populations in the past. In fact, the quality of life in all of Europe blossomed after the Black Plague because there was more land and other resources available to the surviving populations which had been reduced. Same thing after WWII. And each European country managed a higher standard of living after both catastrophes by not resorting to having population sizes found in places like China and India.

Less is always more.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


Overpopulation is a global problem. It strains resources everywhere and causes less to be available for current and future generations all over the planet. It is more acute in the developing world and this is the very reason why you see immigrants from there head to Europe, North America and Australia. The problems caused by overpopulation are only being transferred. Some people may believe for the moment that it makes sense to open the door and absorb this excess human capacity in the world just to keep their own current population numbers on the up. But encouraging immigration to Poland or other developed countries won't give an incentive to the third world to have fewer children. It won't act as a relief valve causing future immigration attempts to decline. What really needs to be addressed is what population size Poland should have and why? There is no reason why Poland can't exist with a smaller population than it has today for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]

Germany has retained a diversified market economy including a manufacturing base which still requires a good amount of human capital. This is in part why they have done better than some other countries during the recent economic troubles. But all economies run in cycles. What is beneficial today like the need for increased immigration to satisfy a growing labour market or counterbalance an older, graying populace makes no sense in other times. Although not pervasive the economies of today are still far more modernized than in the past. Businesses are always searching for ways to find efficiencies which nearly always translates into getting rid of expensive employees. This is still being done by finding cheaper sources of labour such as the young or immigrants or by outsourcing work to other countries. But efficiencies are also being found through more advanced computerization and mechanization too thus lessing the need for labour itself. America for instance has been struggling with its unemployment rate because such efficiencies were implemented by businesses. The recent economic declines in the developed world was an excellent opportunity for many business to get rid of their dead weight employees and not always replace them. If you hear that fewer people are claiming unemployment benefits it is not necessarily because they found a job. More and more it means they are no longer eligible to claim benefits and have simply given up looking for work. Often you can find some of their numbers re-emerge in retirement or medical disability figures.

Immigrants may bring with them motivation and a hard work ethic. If they are legal they are very likely to be paying taxes as well. But immigrants, unless they have amazing unequalled skills, are unlikely to be earning high wages and this tends to depress wages overall in sectors where they are largely hired. So with low wages you not only have an increased demand for cheaper goods because they are more affordable (and which are likely then to be imported from overseas) but you also have decreased tax revenues. Low wages also lead people to decide not to start a family or just have one or two children. Low wages creates further disparities in communities which result in social tensions and crimes both from and against immigrants. Overtime this leads to claims of exploitation and demands for higher wages and so by the time an immigrant or his descendants have finally assimilated in a new country with good wages they have become too expensive and the cycle starts all over again. Immigrants are also known for sending remittances back to relatives in their country of origin. In host countries like America remittances amount to tens of billions of dollars being sent back to other countries. El Salvador has so many of its people working in America that it has become dependent on remittances in its own economy and that is why it uses the US dollar for its own national currency. But this has not helped El Salvador improve its infrastructure or quality of life for its citizens that remain there. America's economy is not recovering like it has in the past and won't recover either from this sort of cheap immigration - legal or otherwise. That is why Poland needs to see the benefit of a smaller population with a more modern, efficient, diversified and sustainable economy so it can better withstand economic swings. This would give Poles less of a need to seek work elsewhere and give Poland less of a need to seek immigrants.


Thank you.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


Everyone responds to the realities or understanding of the environment they live in.

Just a few generations ago European families were very large. Having anywhere from six to even twelve children was not uncommon. Europeans of a bygone era managed this but times and conditions have changed.

Almost all people in advanced economies like Europe are more educated today (this includes being more secular) and are living longer lives as well. Parents recognize that they must largely pay their own way and that of their children if they want to be successful in the highly competitive societies they live in. Poles may be more prosperous now but the living costs in Poland and elsewhere in Europe are significantly higher than in previous decades and have always been so compared to developing countries. There is also a general awareness that life has uncertainties that can affect a person's or family's standard of living. For example, a family may experience a job loss due to their employer relocating production or operations overseas. If they find another job it may be in a lower wage bracket due to immigrants in that sector who have forced wages down. Or they may face soaring costs in food, fuel, rents, taxes, etc. Whatever the circumstances parents recognize the benefit of being a smaller unit so by having fewer children they are able to accumulate more wealth and maintain or advance their family's quality of life. This results in peer pressure as well. When new parents see other families which are small but successful they are likely to follow that example rather than that of the larger but struggling families that exist in immigrant communities or the third world.

In contrast poorer nations do not have the same access to good schools and better health care and have economies that are still very labour intensive. Having more children still makes sense for them even though it is their larger populations that are actually holding back their development. This is why so many flee to find opportunities and better quality of life in developed countries which are that way because they have smaller but suitable population sizes.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


So what size should Poland's population be and why?

Archeology all over the planet shows that abandonment of settlements are a fact of human existence. Before any human settlements there was nothing but the landscape and it was no problem for life here on Earth. If a settlement dies out it just shows that it ran its course and wasn't sustainable anymore for the population living there. Is it sad in a way? Sure. But demanding a flood of immigrants won't keep classes and churches full in many of these areas anyway since they almost always gravitate to larger urban centres and stay there. You can't invite immigrants to Poland and then force them to live in regions they don't want to go to. The communists tried that and look at the depressing toll it took on both people's lives and the environment during that era.

Poland isn't dying it is merely adjusting and if it is a downward adjustment then there is nothing wrong with that. 32 million is a very healthy number of Poles to have in any decade. Much wealthier countries like Sweden and Switzerland get by now with around one third of that size.

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]


Do you really believe that all of Poland holds such stereotypes of Jews?

Do you believe that Jews also hold stereotypes and prejudices against non-Jews including Poles?

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]


You only find it stupid because you are uncomfortable giving an answer. You are the one who presented a photo describing it as


. You didn't say it was a view held by just a minority in Poland. Instead you are the one who made an unfounded generalization and mentioned the country Poland itself.

Zimmy also asked you a very important question regarding the origin of the photo you showed everybody:


Where did you get this photo anyway? If it is something being sold in Poland then list several places that carry them. Are they made in Poland? If so then who makes them?

By the way, why did you avoid answering my very legitimate question regarding stereotypes and prejudices that are held by Jews against others? I'll ask again, in your view are Jews capable of holding exaggerated and/or unfounded beliefs about non-Jews including Poles? Yes or no? Its not for me to provide examples to you. You either believe they are also capable of bigotry or you don't believe it.

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]


Plot to corner you? That sounds paranoid. I asked you a very unambiguous question as to whether you believe Jews are capable of similar acts of stereotyping of others or not. Examples don't need to be provided. It's something you either believe or you don't.

You obviously have no problem believing and even telling others in public forums that Poles are bigoted towards Jews. So it is perfectly reasonable to ask the opposite as to whether you believe Jews are capable of being bigoted against Poles or other non-Jews. You should be able to answer this for yourself with confidence and not qualification; unless of course there is a very uncomfortable reality you would rather not acknowledge.

It's pretty evident from your evasive answers you have quite a ways to go in maturing. You are the one who posted an image and then claimed without any proof that it is linked to Polish stereotyping of Jews. You still can't name the country where these figurines are made or sold. Instead you lazily expect others to go on a wild goose chase across the internet to find evidence that you are somehow correct. You didn't seem to have a problem taking the time to find the photo and posting it for everyone though. No reason then why shouldn't support your claims when asked. Since you can't others will simply have to make their own conclusions about you and your motives.

But let's face it, you are just enjoying spreading wild stereotypes about Poles in order see the reactions you can get out of others. But you need to realize that you are not helping Jews overcome any misunderstandings they may have about Poles. You are only behaving like a wedge between the two communities.

You really need to hard look at yourself before you call anyone else foolish.

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]

You're obscenities and name calling prove everything I just pointed out about you. You really do speak for yourself in more ways that you realize or are prepared to admit.

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]


There's nothing to re-read. You blatantly presented Poles as stereotyping Jews which is in itself a stereotype of Poles. You were rightfully questioned about this not just by me but others. Rather than be honest with yourself and others you instead gave evasive responses or you flatly refused to answer and then resorted to insults.

If you don't want your time wasted then you shouldn't start something you can't finish.

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]

It's obvious that you enjoy stereotyping Poles but never calculated that it would backfire on you.

Are you Jewish by any chance?

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]

Jewish card? What are you talking about?

f stop made a posting which stereotypes Poles. There is no getting around this.

I asked her more questions regarding it and you can see for yourself how negatively she reacted.

When she did finally get around to grudgingly posting some links there were for solely Jewish interest websites. If she is Jewish then you dtaylor5632 will need to explain what the problem would be in her sharing that information. There is nothing for her to be ashamed of is there? Only you can answer that one.

UK, Ireland / Are Polish people importing a new wave of ancient racism into the UK? [402]

Anyway. It's clear then that no group, especially Poles, need to attach any weight regarding false accusations of stereotyping when lobbed by the likes of you and f stop.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]

I'm nobody's agent. If I were I would be lobbying politicians or campaigning for office myself; not casually posting comments on the internet.


You should scroll down and read the comments from this article you cited. Even back in 2010 (and long before that actually) UK citizens were complaining and expressing fears of the burden the continuing mass influx of immigrants would have on their country both economically, socially, and environmentally. You claimed in your original post to be teacher concerned about school closures. If that's the case then you should also be aware that in both Britain and the United States there is a very real problem of overcrowded classrooms and the negative impact this has on a child's education. Of course one solution would be to build ever more schools and hire more and more teachers but this approach is not sustainable. This may give job security for builders and those in the teaching professions but in the long run it still doesn't benefit all those students because they eventually have to leave and enter a workforce where increasingly there are fewer job opportunities regardless of how high of a degree they obtain. And in today's global economy an employer can still very well hire a foreigner or ship the job overseas rather than employ a local even if he or she immigrated years before.

If you or fellow teachers are under threat of closure there are always other schools elsewhere you can work at if you are good enough. Here is one school that has been looking for a replacement head master: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8664333.stm


There are many countries facing a similar a demographic "time bomb". But immigration won't necessarily pan out to deliver the expected benefits of correcting this. For example, in 2010 there were 12 million legal permanent residents in the United States and officially there are an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants though some groups claim this latter figure is much more higher. Furthermore, some quarters in the US have claimed that the government has been allowing illegal immigration on a massive scale to continue (despite public pronouncements to the contrary) as a tacit way of addressing the issue of a large graying population and a smaller younger population which hasn't been reproducing at a fast rate. There is a reluctance to offer all these illegal immigrants amnesty because it is an explosive term among voters going all the way back to the Ronald Reagan administration because amnesty never stemmed the tide as promised. Despite all this the future for pensioners in the US remains bleak. There is still going to be a massive budget shortfall which will demand that their benefits be slashed and even more taken from the young. If younger workers, immigrant or not, are continually taxed at higher rates they will not have money to spend for themselves or their family. So why have more children? More immigrants will only force down wages and drive up housing prices or rents. And if people aren't spending money because they don't have it then jobs simply dry up. It is a vicious cycle. And as I've already pointed out many immigrant workers do not command high salaries and have a tendency to repatriate significant portions of their earnings back to their native homelands. In just the past year it is estimated up to 1 million immigrants left the United States. There have been some cases of deportations and tighter identity laws associated with this but no where near to have an impact that would add up to this figure. Most left voluntarily because they were economic migrants to begin with and America's economy slid off a cliff. So even many immigrants and their families will pick up and leave if they can't make it.

If Poland has a similar problem of having too many pensioners then it will have to face hard choices of making deep cuts or having them pay more out of their own pockets for any expenses they have in their golden years.

However, there are alternatives. They can be like many British pensioners and move to a sunnier place; preferably with a favourable exchange rate to the złoty or euros. Being an EU member Poland can also take a coordinated approach by working to pool pension costs with other EU states and share the ongoing pain of having had too many people to begin with.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


You seem to have a lot of different things going on in your personal life. From what I gather you want to get married, have kids, go to university and work too. And yet you blame Polish society for not helping you. What have you contributed to Poland in the past that makes you prepared now to expect the Polish people to help you get along in life? Why should you be helped when there are literally millions of actual Polish citizens your age and older who have legitimate claims to work and education in Poland?

I'm not sure where you are actually from but is it normal in your home country for parents to work and pay taxes for a lifetime just so immigrants can come along and reap the benefits rather than their own native children? Why aren't your parents or your girlfriend's parents helping you?

You need to realize that not everyone can get what they want in life. Even Polish citizens face hard choices and are often forced to settle for less.

It's quite common for students in many countries to not get into the school of their dreams because their grades weren't competitive enough or they couldn't afford it. So such students end up going to a more affordable but less renowned school or they chose a different a career path instead.

I don't see why are you being so inflexible. If you and your girlfriend are genuinely in love then get married and go live with her in your home country. If you can't afford the tuition in Poland then you surely must be able to back home. And if you are smart and skilled there is no reason why you couldn't find work or start your own business in your home country too.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


What a shocking level of immaturity and arrogance you demonstrated. Everybody in Poland is a racist because the red carpet hasn't been rolled out for you. Really? Wow! Naturally you completely avoided answering if your own home country is as generous and accommodating with immigrants as you demand Poland be with you. I take it they are not so by your own definition then people in your home country are racist if not worse. Perhaps that is why you also declined saying anything about the suggestion that you take your Polish girlfriend back to your home country with you instead. You must be really ashamed of where you come from that you know it is unfit for anyone else to live there and you have given up even trying to make it a better place.

What you are failing to understand is that every desk you occupy in a Polish school means a prospective Polish student had to be turned away. Every job you take is one a native Pole cannot have. Despite this obvious truth you still have the temerity to say other people are the ones creating obstacles when you would be the one blocking the opportunities that should be available to Polish citizens. You are unconcerned about never having done anything for Poland in the past and by the sound of things it is extremely unlikely you ever could be a productive member of Polish society either now or in the future.

Oh well. Maybe you should try another country that will crown you king just for showing up on their doorstep.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]


If this is a right like you claim then who codified this right and who enforces it?

By your logic anyone should just pickup and go anytime they want to wherever they want. OK. So when a stranger comes knocking on your door and they say they are going to move in with you because they need a better place to live (and don't forget according to you it is their right after all) you have no choice but to let them in.

It must be nice for you to think other societies have endless capacity of resources and opportunities when you know yourself you would have no problem slamming the door shut in someone else's face.

Remember, you are not the only one who is knocking on Poland's door to get in.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]

@hansomreiste

You really don't understand. Simply saying you want to become a Polish citizen because you are a good person is not sufficient so just drop the infantile name calling of branding everybody a racist when you realize you can't get what you want even though you have convinced yourself you are entitled to things that aren't yours to begin with.

In many countries the unemployment rate is typically very high for people in their late teens or early twenties even during the best of times. That's just the way it is because older people have the skills and experience employers need and such workers are slow to leave the labour market. So if you marry your Polish girlfriend and complete your schooling then what makes you think you will be successful in finding a job or starting a business in Poland at your age if you admit you cannot even do this in your own home country? Is Poland supposed to somehow guarantee you employment if it granted you citizenship? Would you still call Poles racist if you managed to get Polish citizenship but couldn't find work or only got low wage jobs afterwards?

If you bothered to look you would discover that every recognized country has borders and associated laws governing who comes in, who gets to stay, and who doesn't. Your home country has them and so does Poland. And it doesn't make anybody a racist for saying these things exist and should be enforced. They are there because the overwhelming majority of people living in each country wants them there. National borders and immigration laws significantly help to create stability as well as opportunities. They can't and shouldn't be tailored to fit the self-serving needs of people who show up one day trying to remain in a country when they were never invited to come in the first place. Each country knows its needs so if it requires more immigrants then it will let them in; if not then it won't. It's that simple. It may seem unfair to you because it doesn't fulfill your personal desires you have for yourself but that's life. So you need to be flexible and be willing to return to your homeland or try a different country other than Poland that may need immigrants like yourself. And if your love is genuine then your Polish girlfriend will certainly follow you to the ends of the Earth; for better or for worse they say!

Love / Do Irish / British guys like Polish girls? [138]

Of course some British men like foreign women. Even some British women like foreign men. And don't forget that British men and women still fancy each other too.

Sure, British men are open to picking up girls (foreign or not) but what matters is do they want to keep you or just take you to bed a few times? Also, divorce is still more likely to occur in the UK and less so in Poland. You may think Polish men are cold but British men are not generally known for showing or having warm, caring emotions. Like anywhere it rests solely with an individual and their economic means to be a provider and not simply their nationality or ethnic origin.

So if you want a British man that is your business but just make sure that your relationship is based on true love and not something else. Ask yourself what would you do once the novelty of being a foreigner to each other wears off or when the non-EU Commonwealth migrant living in the UK that you thought was British no longer wants you because they could not get permanent EU residency or no longer needs you because they got it thanks to you?

Law / Pakistani married to Polish Girl in Sweden [40]

You should be able to get free advice regarding this from the Polish embassy or one of its consulates in Sweden. That's what they are there for.

Here is a link for starters: poland.visahq.com/embassy/Sweden/

It's advisable you take your Polish wife with you if and when you visit.

UK, Ireland / Why English do not like Polish? [417]

@lm467

You really have tried to paint yourself to be a morally superior victim.

Your tale of woe regarding a few bad run-ins reminded me of this quite recent article: "Teenager jailed for attacking Malaysian student during London riots - Beau Isagba, 18, who broke Ashraf Rossli's jaw in two places and stole his bike sentenced to seven years in prison"

guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/09/teenager-jailed-malaysian-student-london-riots

Here is the one passage in the article which is of particular relevance to your screed against Poles living in Britain: "Judge Witold Pawlak, sitting at Wood Green crown court in north London, said that 54 months of the total of 84 months he was imposing, to be served in a young offenders' institution, were for the attack on Rossli."

Yes indeed, how fitting that a UK judge of Polish origin should be the one to hand down a very lengthy prison sentence to a native Briton who viciously assaulted a student from Malaysia; which you should know is a member of the Commonwealth.

Judge Pawlak is only one of the many thousands of Poles whom you never heard of who have quietly but successfully immigrated, integrated and contributed to British society as well as other societies all around the world.

I suggest you learn more about your own country and fellow citizens of foreign birth living there before you make and then spread such ill informed opinions about Poland and the Poles.

UK, Ireland / Poland continues to milk Ireland dry. [129]

The Poles living in Ireland are there legally and are not immigrants. They are exercising their right as European Union citizens along with their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States. That is the law.

The same cannot be said of actual Irish immigrants who have gone abroad:

And the news article I cited is from 2007 - around the same time that is the focus of complaints about Polish numbers starting to grow in Ireland.

Work / Moving from India to Warsaw to study. Need information about Warsaw city, jobs etc. [40]

@biketroller

You speak as if all other nations (especially Sweden) are devoid of racism. Why should anyone believe you and your absurd claims that Poland has problems with race, religion and language but your own country doesn't?


And unsurprisingly you didn't give any examples of other so-called "open-minded" societies; not one, not even Sweden!

Love / Mixed Race Relationships (Polish guy married a Filipino/Spanish) [13]

Sorry but I don't believe you got to any point in your commentary. It's not clear what you are looking for from the PF community regarding your family.

You said you have mixed raced children from your marriage but so what? There are mixed race children to be found probably in just about every country.

Love / Polish girls call themselves sensitive and easily to be hurt, but how if they hurt others [35]


Yes, let's analyze and discuss.

Your other posts indicate you are a foreign male studying in Poland but you are more interested in Polish girls and already admitted wanting to start a relationship. You leave the impression that the "several number of boys in Warsaw who are suffering from the same pain" are not native Poles but rather are other migrants who are struggling to secure permanent residency.

Dating and relationship discussions are too subjective of a topic. And besides, don't you have a father figure in your personal life to talk about such things rather than complete strangers?

To be spending so much time socializing online and around Warsaw it doesn't sound like you are in a very challenging school. That or studying isn't very important since being in school is simply a pretext to bide some time so you can get your foot in the door and hopefully remain in Poland indefinitely.

Why not just admit you are an economic migrant because your homeland is inadequate for social development?

Work / Poland Visa D and traveling-US Citizen [13]

How were able to obtain a visa if you don't understand what you are able to do with it? You should go back to the officials who issued you the visa (or the middleman you paid) to have them explain it to you.

News / Will EURO 2012 be a proud moment for Poland and its people or set back Poland 20 years? [86]

It's always a laugh to read the dispatches coming from all these kumbaya expats and their long-suffering plight in Poland.

It makes you wonder why they ever gave up their own perfectly harmonious multicultural Disneylands to settle in Poland which is almost exclusively white (usually like themselves). Why on earth do they stay in Poland if they regard it as such a racist society?

We often hear the hindsight arguments that Nazi soldiers should have resisted and deserted. So if Poland is as bad as they claim then it only makes sense for these do-gooder samaritans (supposedly without a bigoted bone in their bodies) to up sticks and return to their utopias. Or better yet they should actually drop their hypocrisy and live the life they expect of others. I hear there are great opportunities throughout the third world. Cost of living is dirt cheap too. All you need is sunscreen and a smile.

And please, no selfish arguments that you have no choice because your work requires you to be in Poland or your wife/husband is from there. Make the sacrifice and leave and set the example elsewhere.

News / Don't go to Poland ... because you could end up coming back in a coffin [313]


I'm beginning to wonder if the sudden British stance against Euro 2012 has anything to do with the Olympics in London this summer. Although the dates don't clash they are close enough and there may be a genuine fear with the UK media and their politicians that British citizens (most of whom aren't wealthy to begin with) will spend a good portion of their money during the football matches if they go to Poland and Ukraine. Once they come back there will be little interest or savings left over to bother with anything to do with the Olympics.

I hear most of the British public already have a very tepid interest in the Olympic games this year.

News / Don't go to Poland ... because you could end up coming back in a coffin [313]


What's your definition of a "coloured" person? This is a very outdated term that many living in the 21st century would find disparaging and offensive.

News / Don't go to Poland ... because you could end up coming back in a coffin [313]


It's not clear what local_fela means by it. I understand the term "coloured" was popularly used by advantaged Whites during America's days of slavery and segregation and South Africa's apartheid era. It suggests that white is the standard and any variation from this is, well, "coloured".

It is known that in previous decades some Blacks and other non-Whites would accept the term (they had little or no choice) but this is no longer the case. I challenge anyone to walk around North America or even the UK and start calling Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Inuits, etc. with the term "coloured" and they will find very quickly the term is not appreciated because it is wrong.