Language / Counting hundreds in Polish - "set" from 500 [11]


That's due to historical development of the language. Perhaps comparison of several Slavic languages would be interesting.

Typology of numerals in various languages: grzegorj.private.pl/typpl/typollicz.html

Polish
100 sto
200 dwieście => dwie (feminine) ście
300 trzysta => trzy sta
400 czterysta => cztery sta
500 pięćset => pięć set
600 sześćset => sześć set
700 siedemset => siedem set
800 osiemset => osiem set
900 dziewięćset => dziewięć set

Lower Sorbian - this language is quite close to Polish
100 sto
200 dwěsćě
300 tśista
400 styrista
500 pěśstow
600 šesćstow
700 sedymstow
800 wosymstow
900 źewjeśstow

Upper Sorbian - closer to Czech
100 sto
200 dwě sćě
300 tři sta
400 štyri sta
500 pjeć stow
600 šěsć stow
700 sydom stow
800 wosom stow
900 dźewjeć stow

Czech
100 sto
200 dvě stě
300 tři sta
400 ètyři sta
500 pět set
600 šest set
700 sedm set
800 osm set
900 devět set

Slovak - the most regular
100 sto
200 dvesto
300 tristo
400 štyristo
500 pä»sto
600 šes»sto
700 sedemsto
800 osemsto
900 devä»sto

History / Polish passengers on the Empire Windrush [7]


polishresettlementcampsintheuk.co.uk/passengerlist/empwindrush.htm

There is a detailed list of all 66 passengers, with their addresses in various camps in UK. They were mostly women, many in their 40s, and a bunch of kids of both sexes. The youngest were two eight-years-olds; that would make them 72 years old now, if they are still alive.

Updated with corrected link to the story about Colonia Santa Rosa, Mexico,
electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/varia/colonia_santa_rosa/csr_eng.html

Language / "to believe is to see?" - Getting a Tattoo in Polish and Want Proper Grammar! [30]


I could not care less what you choose for your tattoo, but I had simply noticed that your explanation in post #23 matched exactly the Polish saying "wiara czyni cuda".

And that saying is not actually religious at all. Firstly the word "wiara" in Polish translates into: faith, belief, confidence, trust, religion, creed, credence. Secondly, the noun "wiara" and the verb "wierzyć" are closely related, so if you like the latter, why are you opposing the former?

What this saying actually means is this: if you strongly believe in something to happen then you will achieve it - even though the probability of such thing to happen borders with miracle. Hence the word "cud", which translates into: miracle, wonder, marvel and prodigy.

And here is a little poem that fits so well here.

Wiara..

wiara czyni cuda pojęcie wszystkim znane
lecz czy do końca zrozumiane?
wiara to praca, to pot i ból
wiara to nasz największy trud
wiara jest w nas
głęboko w sercu drzemie smok
jeśli go obudzisz góry przeniesiesz
czy warto wierzyć?
a czy warto marzyć?
wiara z serca płynie a sercu rozum pomaga
i ciężka praca...
wysiłek i determinacja konsekwencja i zaufanie sobie
to wiary podstawa...
- by Tomasz Ostapiuk

historiusmiedzyrzeca.pl/poezja_rodem_z_miedzyrzeca

Travel / Poland in photo riddles [3134]

A spring with tasty / healing / miraculous water?

Language / "to believe is to see?" - Getting a Tattoo in Polish and Want Proper Grammar! [30]


Then there is a Polish proverb: "Wiara czyni cuda"; Faith works miracles.

News / 70% of Poles like Komorowski. Do you? [120]

Now, I am so astound; if I have nothing to share I keep my mouth shut and listen, waiting for my turn to share. :-)

I am sorry, I am not buying to this: "its a forum, I was bored, so I decided to write it." I call it noise. You call it whatever you want.

News / 70% of Poles like Komorowski. Do you? [120]

And why do you think it was important to share your ignorance with the world?

Language / Polish regional accents? [141]


This comes from Mazovian dialect:
+ Platalization of [ke ge] => pronounced as [kie gie]: nogie, rękie
+ No palatalization after l, li => ly : lytr, lysa, lymuzyna
+ -mi ==> -my in plural instrumental

The funniest part was the ke, ke deal. In 19th c. two language schools appeared; both proposing standardization of Polish orthography. Among many other issues the Warsaw's school insisted on kie-, gie- prefixes, as in kielner, gienerał and gieografja; the Kraków's school on ke-, ge- prefixes: kelner, generał, geografia. Both sides barricaded themselves and none of numerous committees, meetings and conferences could solve the issue for the next 65 years, until 1954/56.

Language / Polish regional accents? [141]

Podhale (piedmont, literally: under the mountain meadows) dialect belongs to the dialects of Małopolska (Lesser Poland) mountain belt (see Małopolski dialect), which also includes: Spisz dialect in the east and Orawa and South-Żywiec dialects in the west. Podhale dialect is inherently variable, due to the size of the region (about 50 localities).

See the attached map outlining the extent of Podhale region.

To get some ideas what it is all about ,do this:
Open the following page (in Polish), gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=442&Itemid=43,
then follow the 16 properties of that dialect outlined there, keyed into this rough English explanation below. The little green triangles inside green squares invoke samples of speech, which characterize some of those 16 main properties listed.

1. "Mazurzenie" - pronounciation of consonants [sz cz ż dż] as [s c z dz]

2. Voiced inter-word phonetics - voicless consonants at the end of the first word become voiced if the second words starts with one of [r l ł m n]

3. Slanted vowels, continuation of ancient long vowels (as in Czech)
3.1 Slanted "a", a sound between "a" and "o". Dying sound, younger generation replace it by "o"
3.2 Slanted "o", a sound between "o" and "u"
3.3 Slanted "e", equivalent to vowel "y"

4. Nasal vowels (too complex to explain here ...)

5. Protetic vowels
a. Labialization
b. Aspiration
c. Pre-jotation (from Latin pre + jota) - inserting "j" in from of vowels in aspiration

6. Transition of suffix -ch to -k

7. Podhalan archaisms

8. transition of -ch to -k in numerals

9. Keeping old front-tongue £ (dark L), rare - mostly elder people

10. Keeping old "i" after the fricative "r", similar to Czech ři

11. Transition of -ił and -ył to -uł

12. Lack of transition e ==> o in front of consonants [t s] (as opposed to standard Polish)

13. Keeping the feminine suffix -e in dative

14. Morpheme -t- in passive participles, based on the roots of the past tense ending in slanted "a"

15. Frequent occurrence of suffixes -acka and -ba, forming names of actions

16. Initial stress (first syllable)

Now listen to the performance of "Siklawa" band from that region. "Mazurzenie" and the initial stress aside - the most striking features (at least for me) are the slanted vowels (outlined at point 3 above) as pronounced by sisters Danuta and Małgorzata Szeliga. Try the phrase "Takiegó Janicka serduskó by chciałó". Do you hear the o-u sounds, which I marked as ó?

• 
  Podhale region
  

Language / Polish regional accents? [141]


I agree with most what you said, with some exceptions: educated people from the Borderlands (Wilno, Lwów, etc) spoke with strong "singing" accent, dark L, voice H, etc.


Of course, classes existed. There were peasants - both poor and wealthy. Impoverished petty gentry, often speaking different dialect and accent than the local peasants even though their lifestyle was not that different. Landowners, speaking "the received Polish". Industry workers, often former peasants, who spoke their own village dialects.

Most dialects had their characteristic accents, the way how some vowels were spoken, the way how some clusters of consonants were pronounced, the way where the word and sentence stress was put. A typical example of it is a so-called mazurzenie. So you cannot talk about accents without talking about dialects, because they are strongly connected. Here is a nice website about Polish dialects, unfortunately in Polish only, gwarypolskie.uw.edu.pl

But you can at least look at some pictures there and listen to various examples of regional dialects.

Educated Jews spoke good Polish, small town Jews spoke strange Polish (if any at all), using wrong declensions, and wrong syntax.

In this fragment of the old movie "Włóczęgi" (Tramps), you can hear traditional eastern accent from Lwów (now Lviv, Ukraine).

News / 70% of Poles like Komorowski. Do you? [120]


If this is a case - what's wrong with that? Many speakers prepare their speeches beforehand, reading them several times - in their own native language - to the mirror or to family members. Good for him if he employed a tutor just for that. At least he was not the embarrassment, Lech Kaczyński was.

Early on, during Solidarność days, Lech Kaczyński was given a chance to participate in an English language course, organized by BBC, but he cancelled his participation - explaining it by "the flood of activities and duties". Hence his "Inglisz raczej" in that video. You can see his letter here Polish Londoner.

News / 70% of Poles like Komorowski. Do you? [120]


I somehow remember harvest dances of Lech Kaczynski during the national mourning (Wujek-Śląsk mine)


From the same genre as "bul", but in Kaczyński's rendition: "Witamy biskupa Rzyma", "Irasiad jest zmęczony" (Irasiad is tired) - after hearing "Ira siad!" (Ira sit!) command to a dog named Ira, or a limousine ride in the colors of Monaco.

Fair enough, those were just funny moments, nothing terribly wrong with that.

But what was not funny, only petty, narrow minded and embarrassing, was Lech Kaczynski's laughter at a press conference in Warsaw in reaction to Tusk's competent response in English to a visiting Condoleeza Rice. It was in turn a visible embarrassment to all who attended. Need memory refreshment? Here you go:

ehe-ehe-ehe

Then there were other moments, such as the "małpa w czerwonym"(*), paralyzing the work of several Polish ambassadors, whose nominations he himself had earlier signed, or giving in error the "Cross of Exiles to Siberia" to Wojciech Jaruzelski. But again, mistakes and blunders come with the office. (Kwaśniewski's "Philippine exotic disease" anyone?). But pettiness is not excusable.

(*)["Should we end the conference?" Lech Kaczynski answered: "one more question, but not from that monkey in red." It was about a journalist Inga Rosinska TVN24.]

Language / Ł -- English double-u or hard L sound? [30]


Both mean "ludzie zza Buga", people beyond Bug River (acually the Western Bug, since there is also another river of the same name), which now forms part of Ukraine-Polish and Polish-Belarusian border: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_River

zabugaj is a slang word. It literally means za-bug-aj (beyond-Bug-man)
zabużanin, plural zabużanie. Suffix -anin, -anie indicates inhabitant(s) of a region, town or village. In certain forms the consonant G is being replaced by Ż (Z with dot above, in English ZH). Hence za-buż-anin, not za-bug-anin.

In old times, a very typical G=>Ż exchange used to take place during forming of certain female names:
Examples:
1. The standard form
man: Bajek, his wife: Bajk-owa, his daughter: Bajk-ówna
2. For names ending with G, GA, etc.. Exchange G=>Ż
man: Skarga, his wife: Skarg-owa, his daughter: Skarż-anka (not Skarg-ówna, that would be unpalatable)
man: Ludwiga, his wife: Ludwig-owa, his daughter: Ludwiż-anka

Language / Ł -- English double-u or hard L sound? [30]


Makes sense, thanks, although the term "zabugaje" was used where I was growing up. There was a big population of repatriates from "zza Buga" (probably Wołyń or Galicja, since some of them had Ukrainian surnames, such as Homziuk) in many villages on the line Toruń-Bydgoszcz. They were given properties of former Vistula colonists, mostly German, possible Dutch.


ipn.gov.pl/download/1/7478/biuletyn89_6768.pdf

Language / Ł -- English double-u or hard L sound? [30]


Absolutely, my translation error.

Language / Ł -- English double-u or hard L sound? [30]


Actors were trained to pronounce dark £ correctly, but "kresowiacy", people from "Kresy" (Borderlands), from the East, beyond the Bug river (so-called Zabugaje), people from Wileńszyzna (Wilno, Vilnius, district), from Lwów (Lviv) and its vicinity, from Podole (Podolia) - they all spoke it this way, naturally from the childhood. Today, only few people pronounce the dark £; for example Belarusian and Lithuanian Poles.

Formally £ is described as a "dental velarized half-open lateral" consonant. Informally, it is called the actor's £, the stage £, the nobles' £ or the borderlands' £. Ask a person to say "ława" (a bench) - if you hear "uava" or "wava" then this is NOT the dark £.

Borderland Polish language varieties, also called borderlands dialects, have grown on ethnically non-Polish territories, either on a Ukrainian substrate - a South Borderlands dialect, or on Belarusian and Lithuanian subtract - a so called North Borderlands dialect. Due to the Russian influence both borderlands Polish language varieties share many common features, such as:

+ front-tongue £ (ława not uawa)
+ soft L' in any position (l'epsy, l'ampa)
+ soft CH' (głuchi, not głuchy)
+ voiced H (in standard Polish both CH and H are pronounced the same as voiceless CH)
+ dynamical accent (in standard Polish the accent is static, on penultimate syllable, unless of Latin or Greek origin)
... many other features
By 1939, the two borderland dialects were in common use, but after 1945, when most Polish population was repatriated to Western Poland, mainly the intelligentsia and the gentry, these dialects descended to a lower prestige positions.

Language / Have you ever heard 'destynacja'? [19]


That's OK. You just cannot talk facts, you want to talk propaganda - even in the subjects as neutral as a grammar. Then I have to tell to anyone listening here - you have no essence, you are just an empty fuzz-ball.

I have been waiting for any sort of political declaration on your part - a program of some sort, maybe? And all I hear from you is this:


OK, funny little man. Zero value, a lot of nothingness. Sorry, I am not interested in following whatever you spit her, unless you redo it first to make it understandable and logical. So far this is an angry garbage.

News / 70% of Poles like Komorowski. Do you? [120]


Oh, come on Gumishu, people show the most idiotic reactions in the most terrifying moments. That's smile was directed to that woman, whoever she was, and lasted two seconds or so. The snapshot you have shown on the video is a typical propaganda production: let's keep that still smile for - how many, 9 seconds or so? - and then follow it by the rhetorical question "Do you want such president?".

You should know better than that, Gumishu.

I do not question the real gaffes, like the one with the champagne. But this appears to be one of our long tradition of diplomatic gaffes. See "The biggest gaffes of the Second Republic",

ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2012/06/04/to-bylo-niechcacy-najwieksze-gafy-dyplomatyczne-ii-rzeczpospolitej

Language / Have you ever heard 'destynacja'? [19]


Funny, coming from a man with the foulest mouth in this forum. :-)

I fail to see any correlation between vulgarism and mannerism. All you can say is to follow J.Miodek, who recognized this as mannerism ("Słowo jest w człowieku", Wrocław 2007, s. 28): "The use of this word offends some people, but you can not expect that it will be removed from Polish language: unfortunately, some content can be expressed more briefly with its help, so it seems to be functional".

Or, and I forgot to add this:


The Old Polish language spanned the 9th to 16th centuries. See
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Polish_language
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%99zyk_staropolski
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powstanie_i_rozw%C3%B3j_j%C4%99zyka_polskiego

The quotes in #12 came from A. Naruszewicz(1733-1796), Stanisław Trembecki(1739-1812), Joachim Lelewel(1786-1861) and Tadeusz Kościuszko(1746-1817), so you can hardly refer to them as Old Polish.


Oh, really?
Kościuszko: "Armaty, jeśli te są, które mają destynacją do Grodna" (Cannons, if there are such, which are destined to Grodno)

Modern equivalent: "Armaty, jeśli takie są, których miejscem przeznaczenia jest Grodno" (Cannons, if there are such, whose place of destination is Grodno)

Tourist add: Cancun to jedna z najlepszych na świecie destynacji. Caucun jest jednym z najlepszych na świecie celów podróży. (Cancun is one the best world destinations)

The other meaning of "destynacja" - fate, destiny, predestination; as mentioned in #12, are better served by the words "predestynacja", "fatum", "los", or "dola".

Food / Cooked Fruit in Poland - Fruity Fillings, Flan, Pies, Tarts and JAM [85]


Since you know Polish you may wish to read this detailed, interesting and instructive description of a recipe for the plum butter made for the old Polish gingerbread:

forum.gazeta.pl/forum/w,77,17832019,,Przepis_na_powidla_do_piernika_staropolskiego.html?v=2&wv.x=1

Now, imagine how they did it centuries ago: replace the word "pot" by a "cauldron", "wooden spoon" by a "shovel", "stove" by "campfire" and "you" by one or more "servant girls". :-)

Language / Have you ever heard 'destynacja'? [19]


I absolutely agree; it has been in usage for eons, as far back as I can remember. Perhaps this fragment from "Poradnia językowa" explains it well (my translation with some abbreviations):

The word "destynacja" - as used in today's tourism related texts, meaning "miejsce przeznaczenia", "cel podróży" was already defined in "Słownik języka polskiego PAN" (Dictionary of Polish Language by Polish Academy of Sciences) edited by W. Doroszewski, published in 1958-1962. It included many older, outdated words. The noun "destynacja" was one of these and it meant "destiny" form Latin "destinatio" - fate, order.

Doroszewski's Dictionary gives the following example of use of that term contained in the eighteenth-century letter written by Stanisław Trembecki:
"Gdyby na koniec podobało się WKMci te pokorne prośby moje odrzucić, wszelako ja wedługpierwszej destynacji i do wód, i dalej się puszczę, choćbym miał z brudnym służącym we dwóch na jednym koniu tę odprawić podróż."

Futher, the following quotations were given in relation to the verb "destynować":
Joachim Lelevel: "W trzech pokojach trzy stoliki z bostonem, jeden pokój destynowany dla młodzieży"
A. Naruszewicz: "Dwaj młodsi bracia [...] destynowani byli do stanu duchownego."

That dictionary also notes the noun "destynator", being generally an indication of a person to whom something is intended to, and specifically - a recipient of goods designated by a sender.

Before that the noun "destynacja" was mentioned in "Słownik języka polskiego" edited by J. Karłowicz, A. Kryński an W. Niedźwiedzki (a.k.a. Słownik warszawski), year 1900. In those days the word was considered to be little used, although the dictionary has several genetically related forms, such as "destynowanie, destynować, destynator".

The very word "destynacja" was shown with a quote from Tadeusz Kosciuszko: "Armaty, jeśli te są, które mają destynacjądo Grodna, niech idą jak najspieszniej", and from there the reader was pointed to the noun "destynowanie", and from there in turn to the verb "destynować" - to allocate, to designate: "Był to znak woli i Opatrzności boskiej, że mnie destynowała na wielkie rzeczy. Nikt do tej pracy nie chciał być destynowanym."

The noun "destynacja", like many other foreign words, has been now borrowed again to the Polish language - this time from English.

UK, Ireland / Poles 'failing to integrate in the UK'? [58]

No kidding; how observant! Chicago, ancestry (2007 survey):
African American: 37% => (1,054,469)
Spanish or Latino: 23% => (741,330)
Irish: (201,836)
German: (200,392)
Polish: (179,868)
Italian: (96,599)
English: (60,307)
...
Total: (2,851,268)

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

Yes, the original company is German and since 1970s - international. In 1994 it bought stake in Polish company Hydrobudowa-6. On 1 February 2008, the Bilfinger Berger Budownictwo was established, which incorporated the most experienced and most dynamic construction companies operating in Poland. The core of the Bilfinger Berger Budownictwo are: Płockie Przedsiębiorstwo Robót Mostowych (Płock Bridge Works), Warszawskie Przedsiębiorstwo Robót Drogowych (Warsaw's Road Construction) and Hydrobudowa-6. Each of these three companies is a company with a recognized reputation in the construction market.

bilfinger.pl/pl/firma/historia

The company employs 3000 people and invites anybody qualified to join. You can send them your CV on line if you wish.

This done - Would you like to add something on topic for a change? I was talking about Poznań "subway", evidently built by an experienced company.

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]


A new tram route to Franowo was officially opened in Poznań today, August 11, 2012. The new tram route has a length of 2.5 km. Much of it - 1070 meters - is in three tunnels, the longest of which is 366 meters long and connects the stops Piaśnicka / Market and Piaśnicka / Kurlandzka. For this reason it is jocularly dubbed "the Poznan's subway". About 270 million zlotys was invested in the project, 40% provided by EU.

The route to Franowo was supposed to be ready for Euro 2012. However, the official opening was postponed pending inspections from the Firefighter Department and the County Building Inspector. The consents were finally obtained on July 27 and the Municipal Transport Company (MPK) started training tram drivers for the underground driving.

Watch the simulation video made by the developer, Bifinger Berger Budownictwo.

BTW, did you noticed the Polish word "Budownictwo", not "Developers" in the name of the company? How refreshing for a change. :-)

Genealogy / I am searching for my family name - Zarosiak [9]


She said Zarosiak, not Zaroślak. :-)

Zarosiak - from rosić (to bedew, to drizzle), to cover with dew, with moisture.
Moi Krewni database lists only five people with this surname in contemporary Poland. But they all are in Nowy Targ county, quite probably in Piekiełko or nearby.


Oops, I meant Piekielnik, not Piekiełko.

Genealogy / I am searching for my family name - Zarosiak [9]

village Piekielnik, municipality (gmina) Czarny Dunajec, Nowy Targ County, Lesser Poland Voivodship (Slovak: Pekelník). The village is near a creek of the same name. The local Roman Catholic parish is St. Jakub's,

parafia-piekielnik.pl/1,172/kancelaria-parafialna/godziny-urzedowania-kancelarii
contakt e-mail: kancelaria@parafia-piekielnik.pl

The village belonged to Austro-Hungary and Czechoslovakia for some time. It was historically part of Orawa (Orava) District. Before WWII it was part of gmina Podwilk.

Some ancestors in Ellis Island records or other ship manifests from this village have been listed as being from Czechoslovakia. This can be confusing for people who are just beginning to research their family history in this village. Ellis Island records contains the surname BUK from Piekielnik.

Check this thread, devoted to Piekielnik: forum.polishorigins.com/viewtopic.php?t=383

News / Poland's Economy Is Booming! The EU's Success Story? [711]

Another marvel of generalization! You are a mile off the target. Look around and you will easily find gazillions of disgruntled, grumpy, discontented Poles - complaining on PF, in media and in real life. I'd rather see few optimistic ones here for a change. What an arrogant "anthropologist" you are. Should I say - TYPICAL French, following your brilliant example above? Nay, just you.

Language / Using the correct grammar is stopping me from progressing with Polish language [35]


Well, they are talking about Upper Sorbian and this is a full grown language. But after you finish this, google for [Possessive Adjective Czech]. As far as I can tell Czechs like this form too.

See for example,
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_declension#Possessive_adjectives
Examples:
otcův dům - father's house
matèino auto - mother's car
Possessive adjectives are often used in the names of streets, squares, buildings, etc.:
Neruda -> Nerudova ulice (Neruda street)
but:
Jan Neruda -> ulice Jana Nerudy (noun genitive)

Now, thinking about it, some forms of Possessive adjective still exist in Polish:
matcz-yne auto (mother's automobile) - that's perfectly valid and does not sound strange at all. However, it is rarely used.
ojc-owa chata (father's hut) - sounds kind of ancient, stylized, maybe dialectal.


You are welcome

Travel / Poland in photo riddles [3134]

So suppose this is a table decoration of some sort, sprayed in some silver and amber colours. That does not bring me any closer, because my head hurts, even though I have not a trace of hangover, a.k.a. kociokwik (catlike squeak). Good idea: I am going for a drink where nobody will torture me.

:-)

Travel / Poland in photo riddles [3134]

No, really. I am transfixed; I give up. :-)